A question for the mechanics...

Matthew

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Matthew
I saw another thread, and it got me wondering.

Attached is the picture that started my questions.

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This might seem like a dumb question, but I don't know enough about the legalities, structural integrity, safety of flight, ...:

I rent a Warrior and was looking at that picture of the dent in the stabilator. Suppose I'm preflighting and notice a dent that looks exactly like that. Is that something that is considered a no-go?

I've rented planes with dents in leading edges from bird strikes that mechanics have said are OK to fly. And I've seen hail damaged airplanes that are still flying.

What defines a no-go for dents and dings?
 

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Issue with that dent is that it includes the coregation (sp) that IS the structure of the plane.

Regardless report the dent BEFORE you fly. Just like rental car.
 
Issue with that dent is that it includes the coregation (sp) that IS the structure of the plane.

Regardless report the dent BEFORE you fly. Just like rental car.


Yeah - I can see that it creased across two of the corrugated channels, and nderstand that the stiffening of that panel has been compromised. And I WOULD mention it prior to flight, and probably not fly it until it had been OK'd. But, for an average pilot who doesn't want to overreact or underreact, are there a couple general rules of the road that determine "Yeah it's OK to fly, but make sure it gets looked at." vs "What, are you crazy?"
 
I've rented planes with dents in leading edges from bird strikes that mechanics have said are OK to fly. And I've seen hail damaged airplanes that are still flying.

What defines a no-go for dents and dings?
Not a mechanic but my understanding is that for dents and other things there are certain tolerances which can be found in the maintenance manual or other document. The airplane obviously doesn't need to be flawless but it's better to have a mechanic make the determination. After all, that B-17 is flying with lots of dents...
 
I have never flown a perfect airplane. From the picture, I don't see any reason not to fly. The 172RG that I flew to get my commercial had hail damage all over the top sufaces and these were not small dents. The aircraft that I flew to get my PPL had a leading edge dent from hiting a turkey volger and was about 2 inches deep and 5 inches accross. Most of the older personal aircraft I see have duct tape somewhere on them.

However, if sturctural damage is suspected then I would not fly until a mechanic gave his approval.
 
Issue with that dent is that it includes the coregation (sp) that IS the structure of the plane.

Regardless report the dent BEFORE you fly. Just like rental car.

A bent piece of aluminum is stiffer than a flat one. I see no airworthiness issue here.

If it were over a rivet row I'd agree with the Mechanic, but there are no rivets or ribs involved.
 
Any time the surface is compromised, consider the potential for the understructure to be compromised, as well as the overall strength of that component.

Aircraft aren't just built for strength, of course, but also for aerodynamics. It's very easy to look at a structure, think it's minor, and move on. This isn't always the case.

I was warned in my initial training in the Piaggio Avanti that the forward wing is so sensitive that the airplane experiences noticeable lift changes while passing in and out of fair-weather cumulus clouds. It's true; the control column must be moved fore and aft about an inch and a half to compensate for the changes in lift. Bugs on the surface do the same thing, as do raindrops. It's very sensitive.

Convesely, I've had the leading edge of a Cessna 210 peeled back to the spar by bird strikes, and other kinds of damage done, without any noticeable effect on the flight characteristics of the airplane. On yet other aircraft small amounts of frost or ice buildup created significant changes in the controllability and aerodynamics of the aircraft. A small change in control surface balance can result in flutter and breakup of the aircraft.

In an airplane that uses the skin as a major part of the strength of the structure (stressed skin, or monocoque or semi-monocoque structures), dents, damage, and changes to the skin can result in failure of the structure, even if the underlying structure isn't damaged. Additionally, dents or damage to the surface can result in cracking and/or "stress risers" from which cracks can develop, which can lead to unexpected and unforecast changes in the strength of the structure.

In the case of the dent in the picture, it appears to be a fairly minor concern, but it's impossible to tell from the picture.

The strength of the metal surface is a function of the pattern stamped into the surface. Those existing longitudinal troughs stiffen the metal. When the metal is deformed such that they no longer stiffen in the direction they were engineered to do, the properties of the entire structure may become compromised. The structure can now flex, bend, or collapse in one area, weakening it, or concentrating stress where it was not intended. Vibrations that formerly were transferred to a mounting surface or of which were no consequence may now become a problem or cause damage.

Certainly in a case like that it's well to have and consult the aircraft maintenance manual, and in some cases a structural repair manual (which may have additional guidance on tolerances, as well as the repairs). As a non-mechanic you clearly can't do the work or make the calls about what work needs to be done, or how to do it. As a pilot, however, you're still responsible for determining whether the aircraft is airworthy, and ultimately if you'll accept the aircraft as-is, or reject it.

If you have any concerns about the integrity or safety of the aircraft, you have an obligation to reject it until those concerns are satisfied.

I find that a lot of pilots, including a lot of instructors, have no valid idea of determining aircraft airworthiness other than "it looks pretty good." An example might be a preflight when the pilot finds a self-locking nut in place, and must determine if the proper amount of threads are showing past the self-locking medium in the nut. This isn't something that will be found in the aircraft flight manual, and it won't be found in the regulation, but it's still a responsibility of the person doing the preflight to know. What about the condition of the safety wire one sees; is it properly safety wired? The wrong answer could hurt or kill you.

One of the standards that fledgling pilots should know is AC 43.13. It covers acceptable techniques, methods and practices for aircraft repair, and is an excellent primer on the basics of what one should look for during a preflight on a fabric structure, on fiberglass, metal, plexiglass, and so forth. When you come across a "smoking" rivet, what to do, and how do you react? What about the condition of paint, or of fabric? What about the proper way to clean plexiglass?

I've long submitted that along with owning a copy of the aircraft flight manual, a pilot of any aircraft should avail himself or herself of the maintenance manual. The percentage of pilots who do this is very small. Some would rather not exercise the effort, but it's effort that's not wasted, and it's well worth the cost. It may even save your life.

The pilot handbook is the dumbed-down version of systems descriptions and aircraft details, with a few cautions, procedures, and performance tables thrown in. The maintenance manual has much more information, and should be required reading for anyone seeking to check out in or learn more about a given type of aircraft. It's not surprising that few don't bother, but it's always a disappointment.
 
Doug,

Thanks for that answer.

As a renter, I never quite know what I'll find each time I check out the airplane. I've canceled flights because I didn't like what I've found, as we all have and will continue to do.

But the flights I've cancelled have always been at the FBO.

I haven't been stranded at another airport yet. I always think of the 'what if' situation where I find something when I'm on the road and I have to make the safe-for-flight decision. I don't want to be so conservative that I would cancel the flight, and start making phone calls and other arrangements, when it isn't necessary. But I don't know if I have the knowlege or experience to make a decision like that. My common sense isn't all that bad, so 6 qts of oil on the ramp = bad, but a red streak flecked with feathers on a solid part of the main gear = not-quite-so-bad.

I was originally just asking if there were any simple way to make a determination. But it's really not that simple after all, it all depends on the circumstances.
 
No circumstances. If you'd cancel at home base, you cancel at the out station if you're flying recreationally.

Shoot a photo with your phone, make the phone calls, and discuss with the owners/FBO maintenance folks. All good ones will say "You're the PIC, but..." and then give an opinion. I've never had a rental owner not just say, "Get it fixed there."

And they'll work with you if you have to leave the aircraft to be somewhere. They've had the airplane stranded places before. It's nothing new to them. There's always a starving CFI who'll go fetch it after it's fixed.
 
Long and short of it, if you don't know enough to assess if a damaged surface as airworthy, for you, it's unairworthy and you don't fly; simple as that.
 
Denverpilot mentions carrying a camera; its a very good idea to have one in your flight gear all the time.

I experienced an incident a month or so ago that didn't involve aircraft damage, but damage to a hangar. I parked in a very tight parking area and was the last off the aircraft. Someone came on board who spoke very little English, and what they did speak was difficult to understand (we were in Latvia). They wanted to know about a percent. It took some doing, but I figured out they wanted to know what percent power I had used in the parking process. I had no idea; it wasn't much, but I was busy looking outside, not in. I was soon joined by a representative of airfield management, who informed me that two large plate-glass windows on the FBO hangar door had been "blown out."

I walked the ramp area, and took a lot of pictures. I got on a long distance call with the Chief Pilot and safety department, and we looked at the ramp area together during the call, using Google Earth. I then spent about 12 hours putting a report together with the pictures, and labeled the pictures and test to show exactly what happened. The company was informed that I did damage and carried so much power I blew out the windows in the hangar door. That wasn't true, and I had photographs of rocks in the broken glass showing the ramp area had FOD that was responsible for breaking the windows; they were never blown out, and the second pane in the double pane windows were intact.

I was able to show exactly what happened, even half-way around the world, using a small camera and my laptop. You may not run into that same circumstance, but I've had plenty of cases pop up over the years where a picture makes a big difference in putting everyone on the same page. It may be that you're at a remote airfield somewhere with your rental and have a problem; being able to snap a picture and send it to the mechanic/FBO/owner might be exactly what's needed to address the situation.

In the case of rentals, or employment, or even one's own airplane, being able to say "no" is always a crucial trait to survival. Making the go/no-go decision is something that all students are taught from the beginning of training. For many, it "takes," and for some it never does. It sounds like you're on the right track, as you've displayed a history of knowing when to say "no."

A few years ago I detected a slight vibration in a new Air Tractor AT-802 that I was flying on a fire. The airplane only had about fifteen hours or so on the airframe when I got it; new engine, propeller, and airframe. Those kinds of airplanes do experience odd buzzes and vibrations from time to time; many of the fuselage panels are attached with quick disconnect camloc fasteners, and they do vibrate a bit. I was in a lot of turbulence in mountainous areas, and tended to discount the vibration. I still gave the airplane a very thorough preflight and post flight.

I handed the airplane off to a friend and went somewhere else to fly the same type aircraft. My friend grounded the airplane a few days later; it developed excess play in one propeller blade and the prop had to be removed for an overhaul. Even new, it needed major maintenance. The vibration was the airplane talking to me, and it only took a few more flights before it became pronounced enough to demand repair.

Some years ago, in the middle of a firefighting operation, we stopped operations because of some small stains on the underside of the left wing of a C-130A. We removed the paint on the underside of the wing and did a field dye penetrant test; we discovered two small cracks, one an inch long, and the other an inch and a half long. We grounded the airplane, then got a special flight permit to return it to the United States (we were in Mexico at the time). Upon return to the home base, we drained the fuel, and did did full non-destructive testing on both wings. One wing had to be scrapped and replaced, the other required extensive repairs. Those small stains were the only warning we had. From then on, the wing got extensive inspections on a regular basis at short intervals.

Several years later, both wings came off the airplane over a fire in California, killing all three crew members. They were friends of mine. Small things become big things, with dire consequences. Never underestimate what you might find.

I was contacted by a pilot at an ambulance operator, complaining of a popping sound when the flaps were deployed in a Seneca II. The matter was brought to the attention of the Director of Maintenance, but in the shop, the problem wouldn't duplicate itself. The DoM requested the pilot to fly around the pattern with the DoM on board, so he could hear it for himself. He later recounted to me taxiing to the runway, and feeling the flooring move under his feet. He immediately cancelled the flight and demanded the airplane be brought back to the shop.

He expected to find a pulley issue, or a weak component, based on the initial descriptions. What he actually found was very different: the spar was cracked completely through in three places, and the popping sound was the spar grinding against itself as the load changed when the flaps were applied. It was only a matter of time until the wing(s) came off.

What appeared to be a very small spot of surface corrosion on a Sabreliner turned out to be intergranualar so pervasive that the aircraft was unserviceable and unairworthy. It was throughout the structure, coming to the surface, and upon inspection, the I found the aircraft wasn't safe. I informed the owner and left it in his hands. The problem was found during a routine minor inspection, part of a progressive maintenance program, that didn't even involve the surface where the corrosion was found. It was just the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

I've found slight dents in surfaces that turned out to be substantial damage beneath the surface. The understructure was damaged or cracked. I found something like that in King Air 200 once which required a trip to a repair center for spar work. In another case, the vertical stabilizer attach bolts for a large four engine airplane were discovered cracked or fatigued beyond use; all of them, and this wasn't discovered until a "D Check" was being performed. It's entirely possible that the tail could have come off the airplane. I saw something similar happen on a fleet of 200 series Cessnas (fleet size about 30, mostly 206's and 207's), in which virtually all the vertical stabilizer attach brackets were broken. Until the tailcone was removed, the only indication was a minute amount of play.

The point isn't scare stories, but rather the fact that small things become big, and that you should always take very seriously any anomaly discovered. It could be a turboprop that I learned wasn't properly bonded; the only indication was barelly noticeable; the static dischargers were installed after paining, rather than before, and painted over. The airplane didn't discharge properly, and experienced severe damage that required removal of engines and propellers, and had holes burned through control surfaces, props, and much of the structure. Small things become big. It could be a new Cessna sky master I was asked to evaluate following an engine installation; I missed the fact that a plug hadn't been safetied on the engine. It vibrated free, we lost all the oil in flight and had to shut the engine down. It could be the slight whistling noise I heard in another airplane that announced the impending failure of the door seal, and a rapid depressurization that happened shortly thereafter. The warnings might be only slight or very subtle. The results not so much so. Take everything seriously. It can quickly become that way, often at the worst time possible.
 
Long and short of it, if you don't know enough to assess if a damaged surface as airworthy, for you, it's unairworthy and you don't fly; simple as that.

That's been my attitude so far - and so far I haven't had to make the call when on the road. Someday that will change. I won't feel stupid about making the decision, I've grounded myself when I've seen things that make the plane not airworthy even when it's obvious it's been flown by others. I'm sure they would say something like, "Hmmm - that must have failed during flight".
 
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I picked up a Cessna 152 from a repair station once, that had been in for some damage repair. The head of the shop assured me he'd just flown the airplane the previous evening and that it was ready to go. As I looked the airplane over, I found it had completely dry tanks, as in bone-dry. The proprietor still insisted he'd flown it around the pattern.

Next I noted that all the inspection panels on the underside of the airplane were missing; anything facing "down" was gone. He still insisted he'd flown it.

Next I found that the ailerons were rigged backward. He still insisted it flew just fine.

I found several more major issues, rejecting the airplane each time, getting no further because of the nature of each problem, and each time was met with his insistence that the airplane was a fine flyer.

What other people have done really doesn't matter; if it's not airworthy, it's not airworthy.
 
If that dent is cause for grounding, most of the tail-dragger Cessnas will never fly again.

I saw another thread, and it got me wondering.

Attached is the picture that started my questions.

--

This might seem like a dumb question, but I don't know enough about the legalities, structural integrity, safety of flight, ...:

I rent a Warrior and was looking at that picture of the dent in the stabilator. Suppose I'm preflighting and notice a dent that looks exactly like that. Is that something that is considered a no-go?

I've rented planes with dents in leading edges from bird strikes that mechanics have said are OK to fly. And I've seen hail damaged airplanes that are still flying.

What defines a no-go for dents and dings?
 
If that dent is cause for grounding, most of the tail-dragger Cessnas will never fly again.

If that happened on any of our ag trucks, we'd have fixed it immediately.
 
One of the instructors here locally demands that folks back off and view the airplane as a whole from a few feet away on the ramp during pre-flight.

He does this because when he was flying at one of the big name Florida schools, he walked out for one of many flights that day and as he looked at a line of Skyhawks from behind, he noticed the airplane they'd been assigned had one wing a couple of inches of dihedral higher than the other.

It looked out of place in the line of high wings so they grabbed a mechanic.

Spar was broken.

Worse, as the school investigated, the realized that the aircraft had been flown by two other CFIs and students after the flight where it had been overstressed.

Many folks do a pre-flight with their nose pressed up to the airplane (figuratively) and never take a good look at the overall condition of the aircraft from a vantage far enough away to see something out of rig.

Personally, I like to do it near the tail on a high wing. Two purposes, you can see that angles look right. But you can also see the fuel caps, and see that they're on and twisted to the locked position.
 
That's a always a good practice.

We once pulled a 182 out of the hangar for a Civil Air Patrol search mission. During the walk-around, I discovered a small problem: no elevators. Apparently the airplane had been flown the previous day and while flying, the individual left his airplane in the hangar. When he returned in the dark and pushed the airplane into the hangar, he damaged the elevators. He then removed the elevators (he was a mechanic and inspector) for repair, but didn't tell a soul.

Of course we didn't get far, but I'm sure a lot of folks here could recount all kinds of experiences involving things they've discovered simply by looking at the airplane from a bit of a distance. Even with a big airplane, I was taught to do that with a critical eye as I approached, before ever going up the stairs.

I parked an airplane in San Diego one night, next to another company airplane. As I walked across the ramp, I noticed that a gear door was open. It shouldn't have been. I grabbed a flashlight and stuck my head in the gear well. I discovered damage that the crew that brought the airplane in had missed. I called the company to get parts coming, called maintenance control, then called the other crew to advise them. Had they departed with that damage, which wasn't immediately visible from the outside, they'd have lost that gear door somewhere over San Diego not too long after departure.

Details are important, but so is the big picture.
 
Good points (the last two posts). When I was first starting out, my initial CFI told me to do the same thing. Do the pre-flight details, sure, but take a step back and take a good look and see if something just doesn't seem right.
 
Just remember, that Warrior flew back to the airport with that dent...
 
Just remember, that Warrior flew back to the airport with that dent...

Thing is there is a crease line and kink across moulded corners, this is the set up for a crack. Now let's look where that crack will develop, aft of CB of a flying tail surface. What do you suppose will happen when that crack opens just wide enough to catch air? If I was ferrying it to the shop I would have put some tape on for fairing incase of crack development.
 
With the stories some of you guys share, I'm not sure if I'd ever want to use a rental airplane. Without spending hours looking inside and out, it appears you're never really sure what you're going to get if you're using an airplane that someone else has access to. That said, even with my own hangared plane, I don't remove the cowling and borescope the engine before I fly, so I guess it's all relative.
 
Good points (the last two posts). When I was first starting out, my initial CFI told me to do the same thing. Do the pre-flight details, sure, but take a step back and take a good look and see if something just doesn't seem right.

I was taught the preflight inspection started on the walk to the plane.
Is it (relatively) level
Does it have the correct wing count
Does it have three tires
Prop blades there
etc
 
With the stories some of you guys share, I'm not sure if I'd ever want to use a rental airplane. Without spending hours looking inside and out, it appears you're never really sure what you're going to get if you're using an airplane that someone else has access to. That said, even with my own hangared plane, I don't remove the cowling and borescope the engine before I fly, so I guess it's all relative.

You're never sure about anything in life. There are very few individual defects on a plane that can kill you, unbalanced tail feathers is one. I look for the biggies and general condition, as long as I don't see anything major I'm good to go. If I see something I either mitigate the potential impact, such as with placing tape over the crease, or I walk away. It's really not that big of a deal, but it is one of the primary reasons people own planes.
 
I was taught the preflight inspection started on the walk to the plane.
Is it (relatively) level
Does it have the correct wing count
Does it have three tires
Prop blades there
etc

A different CFI friend says, "Are all the big pieces in all the right places?" after students pre-flight. Heh. It's a funny way to ask the student if they were just running a checklist or really seeing if the aircraft was ready for flight. ;)
 
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