A question for the ladies here...

[Diana]

Ladies, what do you usually do in the following circumstance? You are by yourself, land at an airport, and need to eat, but the only way into town is a ride with one of the male pilots hanging out by the FBO. Do you go with him, even if you don’t know anything about him, or don’t know if he is really a pilot?

 

[TMetzinger]

Leave Laurie (and any others who are regularly armed) out, but I'm interested in the answers.

I'd like to believe that our fellowship of aviators would provide a certain degree of trustworthiness, but I wouldn't be insulted if I offered a ride and it was declined.

 

[ausrere]

Ladies, what do you usually do in the following circumstance? You are by yourself, land at an airport, and need to eat, but the only way into town is a ride with one of the male pilots hanging out by the FBO. Do you go with him, even if you don’t know anything about him, or don’t know if he is really a pilot?

Unarmed..I might feel better seeing if I could give him some money to bring me back a burger..at least that way the only thing lost is the money.

 

[gprellwitz]

Does it matter if others at the airport vouch for him? If so, how do you know if you can trust them?

 

[N6399A]

I think it would depend greatly on the situation. Is he a transient pilot or do the people at the FBO seem to know him? If nobody there knows the guy I'd probably not go. If they do know him I'd more than likely accept the ride but would text his license plate number to someone just for good measure. Or, better yet, leave a message on someones voice mail. "Hey, made it to Anywhere, OH, and I'm getting a ride to town with John Smith in his really nice 2001, blue, Chevy Cavalier, Ohio plate ABC 123, I'll call you back in exactly one hour." BTW............ make sure he hears you leave the message. That's what my friends do whenever they get in a car with someone they don't know.......... haven't lost one yet.

Then again. if he's a energetic axe murdering car thief, it might not phase him.

 

[SkyHog]

I think it would depend greatly on the situation. Is he a transient pilot or do the people at the FBO seem to know him? If nobody there knows the guy I'd probably not go. If they do know him I'd more than likely accept the ride but would text his license plate number to someone just for good measure. Or, better yet, leave a message on someones voice mail. "Hey, made it to Anywhere, OH, and I'm getting a ride to town with John Smith in his really nice 2001, blue, Chevy Cavalier, Ohio plate ABC 123, I'll call you back in exactly one hour." BTW............ make sure he hears you leave the message. That's what my friends do whenever they get in a car with someone they don't know.......... haven't lost one yet.

Then again. if he's a energetic axe murdering car thief, it might not phase him.

"OK, lets go...btw, that's not my car!"

doh.

I think the secret is to be armed with mace at a bare minimum. Then you can take all the rides ya want!

 

[AuntPeggy]

Ladies, what do you usually do in the following circumstance? You are by yourself, land at an airport, and need to eat, but the only way into town is a ride with one of the male pilots hanging out by the FBO. Do you go with him, even if you don’t know anything about him, or don’t know if he is really a pilot?

Interesting. It never occurred to me to have a definite plan. I'm a pretty trusting soul. I'd guess I'd just go with my instincts. The pilot community is pretty impressive, but probably has its share of freaks. I like to fly alone to new places and meet new people.

Maybe it's time to consider the problem. I was quite young when I broke the nose of a guy who got too friendly, but those days are long gone.

 

[Everskyward]

Interesting. It never occurred to me to have a definite plan. I'm a pretty trusting soul. I'd guess I'd just go with my instincts.

Same here.

 

[N6399A]

"OK, lets go...btw, that's not my car!"

doh.

I think the secret is to be armed with mace at a bare minimum. Then you can take all the rides ya want!

Yeah............ there's always a cynic. I'm sure that small town FBOs are just crawling with dangerous guys that lurk around day in and day out on the off chance that a hungry female pilot might stop by. I guess I just live on the edge. Come to think of it I got in a car and went to lunch with you without my hand in my purse and my finger on the sprayer.

 

[Kaye]

I just had that situation on my last flight to Ocracoke. I usually walk to town (half mile and I enjoy the walk), but a construction worker was on the ramp and offered a ride. I just went with my instinct and jumped in the truck.

I think with small airports I'm more trusting. Larger airports.....not sure, haven't thought about it....hmmmmm.....

 

[EdFred]

Yeah............ there's always a cynic. I'm sure that small town FBOs are just crawling with dangerous guys that lurk around day in and day out on the off chance that a hungry female pilot might stop by. I guess I just live on the edge. Come to think of it I got in a car and went to lunch with you without my hand in my purse and my finger on the sprayer.

I think getting in a car with Nick is scary no matter what sex you are.

 

[JohnR]

We already have AOPA's Airport Watch program to look out for terrorists in GA airports

Might as well make it worthwhile and expand it to creepy stalkers - we should all keep an eye on who's at the airport. A society can only benefit from good people looking out for each other, like that kid at Disney World William posted about.

 

[TMetzinger]

Then again. if he's a energetic axe murdering car thief, it might not phase him.

He better be energetic - killing someone with an axe is probably harder than we think. Jack Nicholson had a tough time in The Shining.

 

[woodstock]

Is he cute?

 

[Dart]

"OK, lets go...btw, that's not my car!"

doh.

Hey! that happend to me hitchhiking back in the early 70's.

But how I ended up in a stolen car was no picnic either. I get a ride with an older silver-haired 'gentleman'. As I climb in and we take off I see him stuffing magazines under the seat. It's an instant but long enough to see there's nekkid people in the pages.

Damn!

We go about six blocks and he and announces he is getting a cafecito (this is a very common thing in Miami, nobody goes more than half an hour without stopping for a 'cafecito') and he offers to buy lunch after which he promises to take me wherever I'm going. The moment the car stopped I was out with my thumb up. A car comes screeching around the corner and a guy about my age (late teens) flings the door open and when I get in peels out hauling butt. I'm like "Nice car!" and he says "Yeah, I just stole it a few minutes ago"

Damn!

I got off at the next light and ended up walking the ten miles to Key Biscayne. My instincts said my luck was being stretched to the limit so I just hoofed it.

 

[ScottM]

Wow it must stink to go through life scared of strangers. Glad I am more of an optimist when it comes to people and generally believe they are good until proven otherwise.

I think that if the person presents himself in a nonthreatening manner and seems normal the odds of him being Ted Bundy are microscopically small. Not a lot of murders hanging out at the local GA airport hopping to find a victim, a bus station maybe, but really.

I was a transient at an airport in the everglades and a young girly (20ish) landed, like me she wanted to go to lunch so we shared a car. Turns out she was a student form Ireland and had saved all her money to realize her dream and this was her first cross country. It was pleasant and I ended up buying her lunch as a gesture of goodwill to a visitor and fellow pilot who was just starting out. Hopefully I left her with a good impression of pilots and Americans so that when she goes back she will not tell her friends not take rides with people she meets in America as she could get killed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wow it must stink to go through life scared of strangers. Glad I am more of an optimist when it comes to people and generally believe they are good until proven otherwise.

Me too, but that's a much easier perspective to have as a 6'4" big dude than it is otherwise.

However, I was really bummed when I was walking alone one night as two women arrived home, parked in their driveway, and got out of the car. One saw me walking down the sidewalk towards them, screamed "RUN!" and they ran inside the house. Made me feel really good.

 

[jkaduk]

We do risk analysis every time we fly. (One would hope). Part of risk analysis is estimating the probability of something happening. Ever heard of anything happening to a female pilot at an airport? Neither have I.

 

[ScottM]

Me too, but that's a much easier perspective to have as a 6'4" big dude than it is otherwise.

However, I was really bummed when I was walking alone one night as two women arrived home, parked in their driveway, and got out of the car. One saw me walking down the sidewalk towards them, screamed "RUN!" and they ran inside the house. Made me feel really good.

That is a good point Kent and a sad story.

Part of my attitude is that I have been to some really unsafe areas on the planet and none of the places I have been in the US have come anywhere close to those places. I feel pretty safe here.

Here is another story though.

In Tokyo I was walking through Ueno Station to catch a train to Narita Airport. Tokyo train and subway station are notorious for not having escalators. I saw a little old Japanese lady struggling with luggage going up some stairs. I am a large Gaijin, I know I stand out and scare the Japanese who are not used to foreigners. But I walked up to her reached my hand out and took two of her suitcases (she had three) I pointed up the stairs and she nodded I walked her stuff up and she came trotting up after me. She was so grateful, she bowed exceedingly low and told me thank you many times.

She had a great big smile on her face and I knew I proved to her that she had nothing to fear from foreigners. But the thing that struck me was that had that been the US and I asked to help I would have been told "no" and probably would have had that person scream for help, convinced I was about to harm her. People in this country are too scared for their own good sometimes.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Wow it must stink to go through life scared of strangers. Glad I am more of an optimist when it comes to people and generally believe they are good until proven otherwise.

1 of 10 females is sexually assaulted in her lifetime in this country.

 

[Bill]

But the thing that struck me was that had that been the US and I asked to help I would have been told "no" and probably would have had that person scream for help, convinced I was about to harm her. People in this country are too scared for their own good sometimes.

I think instant global media is a source of this fear. In the old days, when you got your news from the local paper, you would only hear of bad things every in a great once while, because except for large cities, bad things only really do happen every once in a great while.

But, now it seems like these things happen all the time, since you hear about (or see on the net) stuff happening in Pea Patch, Iowa, when you never would have before.

 

[ScottM]

1 of 10 females is sexually assaulted in her lifetime in this country.

Sexual assault is a very broad term that also includes verbal, visual and sexual harassment is it's definition. "Nappy headed Ho's" falls into the definition of sexual assault. Considering the perception issues with sexual harassment and the aforementioned definitions that statistic is only meant to alarm and cause more fear IMHO. There is a real fear of rape and did you know that for men the statistic of sexual assault is 3%? or 3 in 100.

I don't want to live my life in fear, I think John said it very well take a risk assessment, what are the real odds that the guy in the FBO is a lurking sexual predator? Pretty darn small.

So take the time to talk to him and form an opinion just don't assume that all men are evil creatures out to rape and murder. Because when we do we get things like Kent story and what was posted her recently about when a man was told recently he could not sit on the plane next to the young girl in the next seat. When he asked why he was told policy was that the airline forbid single men from sitting next to underage girls. That girl was his daughter but the flight attendant made a bade leap that he must be a creep just because he was a guy. SAD commentary on our society.

 

[Dart]

Sexual assault is a very broad term that also includes verbal, visual and sexual harassment is it's definition.

Aunt Peggy's statistic has been borne out to be accurate by the experiances of the women in my life.

There is a real fear of rape and did you know that for men the statistic of sexual assault is 3%? or 3 in 10.

Well, that would be 3 in a 100. But, you are correct, it is a very real risk that is usually overlooked (but never by a banjo player - Badda bum ding ding...)

I don't want to live my life in fear, I think John said it very well take a risk assessment, what are the real odds that the guy in the FBO is a lurking sexual predator? Pretty darn small.

I agree, but YMMV.

 

[ScottM]

Aunt Peggy's statistic has been borne out to be accurate by the experiances of the women in my life.

I did not call it inaccurate I just said that sexual assault has a very broad definition and is not just limited to rape.

Well, that would be 3 in a 100. But, you are correct, it is a very real risk that is usually overlooked (but never by a banjo player - Badda bum ding ding...)

You are correct I was missing a zero just like I am missing a 6th string

 

[Diana]

Pea Patch, Iowa

Hey! I bet they have a grass strip!

Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I just hope the men here don't start belittling women for being concerned about safety issues.

The other day, when I flew into Glenndale, IN, the nicest man offered to take me into town to get some food. I trusted my instincts and just hopped in the car and we drove about four miles into town talking about airplanes and flying and his airport and he bought my lunch and he even stopped at the drug store for me so I could get some cough drops. He was so sweet. I was thinking on the way back to the airport that some women would probably not have gone with him and I was thinking that I was perhaps naive and foolish to be so trusting. Oh, well, I'll go on thinking the best of people until they prove me wrong.

 

[ScottM]

He was so sweet. I was thinking on the way back to the airport that some women would probably not have gone with him and I was thinking that I was perhaps naive and foolish to be so trusting. Oh, well, I'll go on thinking the best of people until they prove me wrong.

Me too, a nicer way to walk through this adventure we call life. You met more interesting people that way as well.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Hey! I bet they have a grass strip!

Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I just hope the men here don't start belittling women for being concerned about safety issues.

The other day, when I flew into Glenndale, IN, the nicest man offered to take me into town to get some food. I trusted my instincts and just hopped in the car and we drove about four miles into town talking about airplanes and flying and his airport and he bought my lunch and he even stopped at the drug store for me so I could get some cough drops. He was so sweet. I was thinking on the way back to the airport that some women would probably not have gone with him and I was thinking that I was perhaps naive and foolish to be so trusting. Oh, well, I'll go on thinking the best of people until they prove me wrong.

Catherine had an encounter at a grocery store a couple weeks ago that creeped her out big time. And when she recounted it to me moments afterward, it creeped me out, too.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

1 of 10 females is sexually assaulted in her lifetime in this country.

10? Try one in four, supposedly.

And Scott, I highly doubt that anything strictly verbal is counted in this, or it'd be a LOT more than one in four.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh, well, I'll go on thinking the best of people until they prove me wrong.

Diana,

If you didn't, you wouldn't be you.

 

[ScottM]

10? Try one in four, supposedly.

And Scott, I highly doubt that anything strictly verbal is counted in this, or it'd be a LOT more than one in four.

From the US Department of Human Service
"Sexual assault can be verbal, visual, or anything that forces a person to join in unwanted sexual contact or attention"

From the National Center for Victims of Crime
" Sexual assault takes many forms including attacks such as rape or attempted rape, as well as any unwanted sexual contact or threats"

Laws will vary form state to state and the term sexual assault has started to become synonymous with rape and that adds to confusion when looking at the statistics. In 18USC they do not even define the term but do refer to unwanted sexual contact as sexual abuse which then would involve physical contact.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sexual assault is a very broad term that also includes verbal, visual and sexual harassment is it's definition. "Nappy headed Ho's" falls into the definition of sexual assault.

I think Scott is confusing sexual harassment with sexual assault.

"The legal definition of criminal sexual assault is any genital, oral, or anal penetration by a part of the accused's body or by an object, using force or without the victim's consent." (American Medical Association. Strategies for the treatment and prevention of sexual assault. Chicago: AMA, 1995) "Sexual Harassment is not included in the legal definition of sexual assault, but sexual assault can be a part of sexual harassment. Within employment or school settings, sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that is prohibited by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 under the Federal law. Title VII defines sexual harassment as 'unwelcome' sexual conduct that is a term or condition of employment (29 C.F.R. 1604. 11a)." (http://sexualassault.rutgers.edu/definition.htm) In addition, most states also define something called criminal sexual contact or conduct, which includes things like "intentional, non-consensual touching by the victim or actor, either directly or through clothing, of a victim's or actor's sexual organs, genital area, anal area, inner thigh, groin, buttock or breast, for the purpose of degrading or humiliating the victim or sexually arousing or sexually gratifying the actor." (NJSA 2C:14-3).

My gut feeling is that Aunt Peggy's number of 1 in 10 women having been the victim of sexual assault/contact as defined above is accurate, or even underestimating the actual incidence due to underreporting. I would guess that the percentage of women who have been victims of sexual harassment of the verbal and visual sort described by Scott is nearly 100%, but I haven't done the research to support that.

In any event, I can understand the concern of any woman who is contemplating going for a drive in a car with a man she doesn't know from Adam, especially if there is no safety zone around them. OTOH, Sheri's point about FBO's not being where men looking for sexual victims hang out is well taken. To a certain extent, if the FBO knows the person, you have an indication of trust by someone you must trust at least somewhat or you wouldn't let them service and mind your airplane. Strategies such as letting the FBO know who you went off with and what time you're due back, or letting the driver know you're leaving an electronic trail of bread crumbs are good risk reducers, but at the end of the day, it's an on-the-spot risk analysis with no clear predetermined answer.

 

[grattonja]

10? Try one in four, supposedly.

And Scott, I highly doubt that anything strictly verbal is counted in this, or it'd be a LOT more than one in four.

I've heard 1 in 4. I've heard 20% (from a local so called expert this morning in the paper). But not that many offenses are reported. They claim only 10 percent are reported, so I've always wondered how we know how often it actually happens. Not to minimize the horror of such attacks; they're simply awful.

One thing about these statistics, these sexual assaults include what I'll broadly call "inter-familial" assaults. In my experience doing criminal defense work for almost 2 decades, the inter-familial (father, uncle, grandfather, step father etc) type offenses are way more common than what I'll call "stranger-assault".

Numbers are dangerous things, easily bantered about and difficult to substantiate.

Diana, I was wondering why you were asking. You don't seem like the kind of person to be fearful of other people. You look at them, ask some questions, determine whether they are safe or harmful, and proceed accordingly. I'm sure my wife would have made the same judgement you did. I'm sure I would have made the same judgement you did. And, while we guys aren't nearly as likely to be sexually assaulted, we are just as susceptible to being murdered.

I've found, particularly at small airports, almost entirely nice people.

Jim G

 

[ScottM]

I've heard 1 in 4. I've heard 20% (from a local so called expert this morning in the paper). But not that many offenses are reported. They claim only 10 percent are reported, so I've always wondered how we know how often it actually happens. Not to minimize the horror of such attacks; they're simply awful.

Well it ahs been proven that over 67% of statistics are made up

Diana, I was wondering why you were asking. You don't seem like the kind of person to be fearful of other people. You look at them, ask some questions, determine whether they are safe or harmful, and proceed accordingly. I'm sure my wife would have made the same judgement you did. I'm sure I would have made the same judgement you did. And, while we guys aren't nearly as likely to be sexually assaulted, we are just as susceptible to being murdered.

I get the feeling that she was just asking if she is being too trusting. I say no. Cautious is one thing, fearful is another and this just sounds like a bit of caution. As pilots I think we all err on the side of caution. It is what keeps us alive.

I've found, particularly at small airports, almost entirely nice people.

Jim G

Want to tell us about the not nice ones?

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the point in the HHS document is that sexual assault can result from verbal threats, but only when they induce the victim to allow penetration, not that simple verbal threats without penetration constitute sexual assault in and of themselves, i.e., the perpetrator need not actually use a knife or gun or physical force to get his way for a criminal sexual assault to occur. Simply threatening the victim makes the ensuing penetration criminal sexual assault rather than consensual sex even if actual force was not used. The threats alone might rise to attempted rape, but only if it can be proven that the speaker's intent was nonconsensual penetration (not all that easy to prove unless you're "Dirty" Harry Callahan -- see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066999/quotes and look at the 14th quote). But merely calling someone what Don Imus called the Rutgers basketballers is not "sexual assault" under the criminal statutes (although it might well be sexual harassment if the words were spoken to or heard by an employee in the workplace), and I think Adam Z or one of the other lawyers can back me up on this.

 

[astanley]

10? Try one in four, supposedly.

And Scott, I highly doubt that anything strictly verbal is counted in this, or it'd be a LOT more than one in four.

My wife, a regional coordinator for a large domestic violence agency, says that their numbers point to about 1:4 in MA, including harassment. It's closer to 1:7 if you eliminate harassment alone.

All I know is, there are a lot of very, very screwed up people out there doing really screwed up stuff to other people.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[ScottM]

I think the point in the HHS document is that sexual assault can result from verbal threats, but only when they induce the victim to allow penetration, not that simple verbal threats without penetration constitute sexual assault in and of themselves, i.e., the perpetrator need not actually use a knife or gun or physical force to get his way for a criminal sexual assault to occur. Simply threatening the victim makes the ensuing penetration criminal sexual assault rather than consensual sex even if actual force was not used. The threats alone might rise to attempted rape, but only if it can be proven that the speaker's intent was nonconsensual penetration (not all that easy to prove unless you're "Dirty" Harry Callahan -- see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066999/quotes and look at the 14th quote). But merely calling someone what Don Imus called the Rutgers basketballers is not "sexual assault" under the criminal statutes (although it might well be sexual harassment if the words were spoken to or heard by an employee in the workplace), and I think Adam Z or one of the other lawyers can back me up on this.

Except that the HHS definition also mention 'sexual attention' and the NVC mention 'sexual threats'. Both of those are sans contact. But I agree that Imus was sexually harassing. It was a poor example of what I was trying to say about those stats that were presented without source or definition.

The point was the sexual assault contains more in it than just rape and the sexual assault has a variety of definitions some of which do include non-contact.

 

[ausrere]

During a CE class I took about 4 months ago, they quoted FBI Uniform Crime Reporting semi-annual reports as stating that 1 in 4 women will be forcibly raped at some point in their lives...down from 1 in 3 from the last reporting period. They define rape as "The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will."

 

[poadeleted20]

the sexual assault has a variety of definitions some of which do include non-contact.

I'd to see quotation of the statute from any state which defines the crime of "sexual assault" without contact. I don't think it's defined anywhere without penetration, no less without contact.

 

[ScottM]

I'd to see quotation of the statute from any state which defines the crime of "sexual assault" without contact. I don't think it's defined anywhere without penetration, no less without contact.

Sexual abuse has contact and is what the title 18 USC law has in it. Nowhere does the term sexual assault appear in that federal statued. When I was searching for examples most of the time if there was a law with assault in it it was also couple with battery as in 'sexual assault/battery'. This may be one of those cases where the common term is ill defined in law.

 

[skyflyer8]

If you need to go into town, I agree with the "instinct" thing. If the guy acted strangely or something didn't seem right, I wouldn't go anywhere with him. But I've yet to run into any creepy dudes at an FBO. Everyone's talking about these statistics, but I agree with John-- how often do we hear of a female pilot being harmed by a guy from an FBO? I think we're statistically better off riding along with a pilot or airport bum than getting into a taxi with some weirdo, like a local one here who assaulted a woman.

I once landed solo at a place where I needed to get into town, walked up to a couple pilots who were chatting and asked how far it was to where I was going. One guy offered a ride, I accepted, and all was well.

And yet my logic seems strange. On a different occasion, my best (female) friend and I ferried an Ercoupe to Montana and landed in Total-Podunkville at dusk, short of our intended destination. We thought we'd better get into town instead of waiting for our ride at the pitch-dark FBO-less airport for 4 hours. So we started walking, not realizing town was actually 2 miles away on that horizon, and drivers passed us every now and then. "Need a ride? It's pretty far into town." "No, thank you," I kept saying, because these weren't pilots, just some strangers. Then when we sat down at the bar in the town of 300 or so people, everyone in the bar knew the names of everyone who had asked us for rides, by the description of their vehicles. "Oh, you could have gone with (insert name), he's the banker. Oh, that guy, he's harmless." Etc. etc... We probably coulda-woulda-shoulda rested our tired selves by accepting a ride, and there were two of us, but for some reason we chose to walk.

So I accepted a ride from a pilot when alone, and refused rides from random drivers even when with someone else. Goes to show how I trust pilots more. Perhaps naiive, perhaps not.

I think we're at some risk no matter what we do and there's always a "what-if." I guess we have to rely on our instinct.