A potentially suicidal pilot?

Sac Arrow said:
On a related note. I came in to work one morning, and one of our employees had a very large, elaborate floral arrangement set up in her office window. I thought it was very odd but I didn't think any more of it and headed out of town to a remote office.

I got the call later on that afternoon that she had deliberately offed herself with a prescription drug overdose late the previous night in her apartment and there was a suicide note on the table. It all made sense then. She had set up her own memorium the night before. But there were no other signs. Nobody saw that coming. Nothing in her speech, or comments, or other actions indicated she was about to off herself. Maybe a trained psychiatrist might have picked up on something but the average Joe and Jane didn't.

We found out later (gee, thanks for telling us after the fact, if we knew this before maybe we could have been more alert for something that was wrong) that she had a history of mental illness and suicidal tendencies, and had just re-entered the work force.

Point being is you just don't really know what's going on inside another person's head.
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I'm sorry, what a horrible story! And one of the reasons I don't want to ignore what I see as some signals that the person I'm concerned about has a problem. It's true we never really know what's going on inside a person's head.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm sorry, what a horrible story! And one of the reasons I don't want to ignore what I see as some signals that the person I'm concerned about has a problem. It's true we never really know what's going on inside a person's head.
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Maybe they are thoroughly disgusted with the human race and ashamed to be part of it. Maybe rather than stick around here they would rather move on. You act like death is something to avoid. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to change it into something that fits a model you believe.
 
MAKG1 said:
Just like when your airplane doesn't seem quite right, listen to the little voice in your head.

You will NEVER know with certainty unless it gets really bad.

You'll have to follow your own judgment. No one on this board has interacted with both of you, so we don't know what happened or what the context is.

I've seen situations almost exactly as you describe, so I think you're on to something. But I can't know for sure either.

You will find a lot of people who don't want to admit depression exists (as it's quite uncomfortable for those around), and it is widely misunderstood. It's not "the blues." It's much more like a feeling of crushing hopelessness, and some people deal with that by numbing. Sound familiar?
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I appreciate your comments. I know that you truly "get it," versus just a couple of the posters here who seem to think I should mind my own business and shut up. I once briefly dated a woman who had suffered from depression for most of her life. I felt very helpless, not only because I could not "make" her happy, but because I had to just sit by and watch as she got into one bad situation after another, including a couple of car accidents and injuries because her mind was elsewhere, or she simply didn't care. I remember looking into her eyes, and seeing, really, no signs of life whatsoever.

True depression, not just "the blues" that we all probably experience at one time or another, is a horrible, insidious disease. It does mix well with flying, or the operation of any machinery, for that matter.

Call me naive, but I wanted to think that we're a small community here, people who share a common goal: safe flight, no matter what our reasons for flying. But sometimes I wonder, given the posts here.
 
Henning said:
Maybe they are thoroughly disgusted with the human race and ashamed to be part of it. Maybe rather than stick around here they would rather move on. You act like death is something to avoid. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to change it into something that fits a model you believe.
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Believe me, Henning, I get the whole German existential angst thing!
 
Henning said:
Maybe they are thoroughly disgusted with the human race and ashamed to be part of it. Maybe rather than stick around here they would rather move on. You act like death is something to avoid. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to change it into something that fits a model you believe.
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Henning, I've been concerned and meaning to talk to you about your odd attitude towards death... :D
 
bullwinkle said:
Henning, I've been concerned and meaning to talk to you about your odd attitude towards death... :D
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:D In order to travel faster than the speed of light, all you have to do is die.:D

There's also one of my favorite quotes, see if someone gets it, "To conquer death, you only have to die."
 
Unregistered said:
Among the transgressions they have "confessed" to: twice flying close to the legal limit for sport pilots of 10,000 feet MSL in order to "get above the clouds," admittedly once with very little reference to the ground; cruising through a Class D airspace without having any clue until it was too late, and "maybe" violating another Class D airspace once because they were confused about the intended landing airport; using up all available runway to land, even though we're only talking a light sport plane, and the shortest runway lengths are 3,000 feet or so; and admitting to a lack of knowledge about how to fly one of the planes they rent, including such things as maximum flap speed, and power settings within the pattern.

Sounds to me like he is a low time pilot that needs to fly more often and not a suicidal pilot.
for sport pilot legal limit is 10000 msl or 2000 agl , so you could be flying 12000 msl and still be legal . "10000 ft or more elevation"
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Concorde said:
Unregistered said:
Sounds to me like he is a low time pilot that needs to fly more often and not a suicidal pilot.
for sport pilot legal limit is 10000 msl or 2000 agl , so you could be flying 12000 msl and still be legal . "10000 ft or more elevation"
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Yes, definitely true. But I've been aware of some of the conditions in which this pilot flew, and believe me, they were very marginal for a low-time sport pilot. Which begs the question: how bold will this pilot become with another 50 hours or so in the logbook?
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Unregistered said:
Concorde said:
Yes, definitely true. But I've been aware of some of the conditions in which this pilot flew, and believe me, they were very marginal for a low-time sport pilot. Which begs the question: how bold will this pilot become with another 50 hours or so in the logbook?
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Wait are you worried about suicide by airplane or are you the bold pilot police?
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Greg, I live in a world where neighbors and friends look out for one another. Clearly you live in a world where your chief purpose is to be disagreeable.
 
Eagle I said:
Greg, I live in a world where neighbors and friends look out for one another. Clearly you live in a world where your chief purpose is to be disagreeable.
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So you are the judge of too bold? Meddling is just a pretty word for gossiping. Which in this case is all we have going on.
 
Eagle I said:
Greg, I live in a world where neighbors and friends look out for one another. Clearly you live in a world where your chief purpose is to be disagreeable.
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There's a fine line line between looking out for and meddling where not welcome.

Suicidal people nobody will know until they are dead. People who want attention and help will rarely die of an attempt. One has to differentiate with whom one is speaking. If someone is reaching out, then talk to them, don't report them to the authorities. If they wanted the authorities they would have gone themselves. If they are reaching up to you, most likely all you need to do is be a friend and you don't have to worry any longer.

If they are truly suicidal, there is nothing that will prevent the inevitable.
 
Henning said:
There's a fine line line between looking out for and meddling where not welcome.

Suicidal people nobody will know until they are dead. People who want attention and help will rarely die of an attempt. One has to differentiate with whom one is speaking. If someone is reaching out, then talk to them, don't report them to the authorities. If they wanted the authorities they would have gone themselves. If they are reaching up to you, most likely all you need to do is be a friend and you don't have to worry any longer.

If they are truly suicidal, there is nothing that will prevent the inevitable.
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I've been there, twice, with friends. What you might be able to see ahead of time is real, true, depression - if you've ever seen it, you'd know. But someone like that isn't, probably, going to be flying - they won't be doing much of anything until one day they finally take control of the situation and kill themselves. I thought I read, or heard of, interviews with survivors that had jumped - they said while they were falling they finally felt peace, because they had taken control of their depression.

I've seen the real depression in one guy that killed himself - afterwards his family and friends felt there was nothing they could have done. And in another guy there was no warning - just a look back by his family and friends beating themselves up over "if we had only known, maybe we could have done something".
 
Henning said:
Suicidal people nobody will know until they are dead. People who want attention and help will rarely die of an attempt. One has to differentiate with whom one is speaking.

[ . . . ]

If they are truly suicidal, there is nothing that will prevent the inevitable.
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This is factually incorrect. There are a lot of things that "make sense" regarding suicide and mental illness: that "cries for help" and successful suicide are inherently unrelated, that suicide is a determined goal of people who have made a rational choice based on their current value system that death is better than life, etc. The fundamental problems with those ideas are 1) they're inherently one-size-fits-all, which is rarely if ever the case in mental illness, and 2) their appeal derives from the fact that they "make sense" to us as rationally thinking people.

Yes, I'm sure there are some situations (insurance fraud by suicide, etc) where there is enough logic and determination behind the decision that lack of access to one method would only lead to another. But in many more cases, a combination of volition and access lead to suicide. That's why when the UK mandated that Tylenol only be sold in blister packs (rather than big tubs), successful suicides by Tylenol overdose decreased by 22%, liver transplants due to Tylenol overdose decreased by 66%, and non-fatal self overdose went down by 15% (BMJ 2001;322:1203). Similarly, gun availability correlates with suicide, even when controlled for rates of mental illness, etc. (Inj Prev. Jun 2006; 12(3): 178–182).

The point of this is not to advocate for Tylenol in blister packs or gun control legislation -- whether those liberty tradeoffs are worth preventing suicides is an entirely different question. The point is that this prevalent idea that "people who want to kill themselves will do it no matter what we do" is flawed, because it's based on the thought that "if I wanted to kill myself, I would do it no matter what anybody else did." But you and I don't share the thought processes that suicidal people have.

Re the "someone who attempts suicide was just crying for help and won't actually do it," the numbers are as follows (from UpToDate, possibly the best general medical resource out there aimed at physicians):

"The strongest single factor predictive of suicide is prior history of attempted suicide (Am J Epidemiol. 2008;167(10):1155). Patients with a prior history of suicide attempts are 5 to 6 times more likely to make another attempt; furthermore, up to 50 percent of successful victims have made a prior attempt (Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1983;40(3):249). One of every 100 suicide attempt survivors will die by suicide within one year of their index attempt, a risk approximately 100 times that of the general population (Hawton, K. Handbook of Affective Disorders, 2nd ed, 1992. p.635).

"Risk for completed suicide, following a history of suicide attempt, is greatest in patients with schizophrenia or unipolar [depression] and bipolar disorder (BMJ. 2008;337:a2205)."
 
Doesn't conflict with what I said, suicidal people will commit suicide, nothing you're going to do except delay it.
 
I consider well intentioned people that meddle in the affairs of others without facts or data to be annoying.

Some 3rd party made comments that piqued emotions of person making OP. That's it. No conclusion can be drawn. No alarms to sound.

Events described are not inherently lethal, despite the fact some may involve poor airmanship.

Just because you don't understand someones statements does not make them sick.
 
Henning said:
Doesn't conflict with what I said, suicidal people will commit suicide, nothing you're going to do except delay it.
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Only if you believe there is no cure for mental illness.

Which is astonishingly wrong.

If someone keels over in your hallway, do you render aid, or say they are just going to die anyway, so just let them? It's directly and rather precisely analogous. A suicidal person is not rational and is not capable of rendering aid to themselves, any more than an unconscious person is.
 
kontiki said:
I consider well intentioned people that meddle in the affairs of others without facts or data to be annoying.

Some 3rd party made comments that piqued emotions of person making OP. That's it. No conclusion can be drawn. No alarms to sound.

Events described are not inherently lethal, despite the fact some may involve poor airmanship.

Just because you don't understand someones statements does not make them sick.
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Wrong. Just because you don't understand mental illness does not mean it doesn't exist.
 
Not to sound derogatory or start a conflict, but without knowledge of judgement, state of mind and wisdom of original poster, no serious analysis is warranted.

I have a sister that only needs to read a few articles in a pulp magazine to catch an eating disorder. Once she has "it" she then may also determine I too also suffer from the same condition. I've seen this in action.

Need to get real here.
 
MAKG1 said:
Wrong. Just because you don't understand mental illness does not mean it doesn't exist.
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Wrong, different frame of reference does not automatically translate to disease.

People are not inherently logical, they are inherently emotional. Emotions affect the decisions and actions of every human to some degree. We are capable of logic, but have to work to very strict rules to stay on track.

Just because you don't understand or relate to someone's particular emotional twist on reality does not make them sick.

Although; with the right credentials, you may be able to bill their insurance company for treatments with the help of the PDR and minor levels of fraud.
 
kontiki said:
Wrong, different frame of reference does not automatically translate to disease.

People are not inherently logical, they are inherently emotional. Emotions affect the decisions and actions of every human to some degree. We are capable of logic, but have to work to very strict rules to stay on track.

Just because you don't understand or relate to someone's particular emotional twist on reality does not make them sick.

Although; with the right credentials, you may be able to bill their insurance company for treatments with the help of the PDR and minor levels of fraud.
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If I'm wrong, someone gets angry needlessly.

If you're wrong, someone dies.

There IS cause for concern here. That you don't understand it is not a measure of safety for anyone. Does it mean a messy suicide tomorrow? Probably not. Ever? Maybe not. But there IS cause for concern.

When you think you understand how to deal with mental illness, substitute a physical one. If your response is different, you don't understand how to deal with mental illness. Would you leave a visibly ill person to his own devices, or would you offer aid? Think carefully about that.
 
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Guy is concerned so he asks on the internet? I am sure he will get the correct answer if he looks hard enough. Geez.
 
MAKG1 said:
If I'm wrong, someone gets angry.

If you're wrong, someone dies.

There IS cause for concern here. That you don't understand it is not a measure of safety for anyone. Does it mean a messy suicide tomorrow? Probably not. Ever? Maybe not. But there IS cause for concern.

When you think you understand how to deal with mental illness, substitute a physical one. If your response is different, you don't understand how to deal with mental illness.
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Safety oriented BS is still BS unless you can substantiate it with facts and data.

I believe statistically significant is not enough, an overwhelming majority in the data should exist before you start denying anyone their rights or privileges.

Still no compelling facts or data, just drama with a hint of possible benefit for someone.
 
Look at all this anger, we need prescription drugs for everybody. Drugs keep your children inline it'll work for you too. Pop this pill and we will cure your mental illness. Serious question is mental illness ever cured or just delayed/mitigated?
 
kontiki said:
Safety oriented BS is still BS unless you can substantiate it with facts and data.

I believe statistically significant is not enough, an overwhelming majority in the data should exist before you start denying anyone their rights or privileges.

Still no compelling facts or data, just drama with a hint of possible benefit for someone.
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What rights and privileges have I been denying?

I've been advocating getting medical help. That can't be done legally even in an emergency without the sufferer's consent.

No one benefits from situations like this. ABSOLUTELY no one. The absolute best that is going to happen in this situation is nothing.

There are never compelling facts in situations like these until something really bad happens.
 
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MAKG1 said:
What rights and privileges have I been denying?

I've been advocating getting medical help. That can't be done legally even in an emergency without the sufferer's consent.

No one benefits from situations like this. ABSOLUTELY no one. The absolute best that is going to happen in this situation is nothing.

There are never compelling facts in situations like these until something really bad happens.
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I would only consider it acceptable if there was realistically some process or mechanism for the intervening parties to be held entirely responsible for ALL damages caused by the intervention, if it could be provable no risk was ever actually present.

You have no skin in the game; just hand waving, heartstrings, intentions, and not one shred of verified data.

Suppose that person is busy working toward some goal, and you simply derail life goals, cost them a lot of money and permanently spoil their medical records. Who pays for that? Who gives them their years of hard work back? You? Do you get hard time for that damage on top of punitive fines?

What differentiates your actions from slanderous assault, misguided good intentions? I don't support it.
 
I haven't read the whole thread and the following comment is a direct response to the OP.

So this sport pilots sometimes gets close to limits and has made a few navigational errors while flying. Considering his training as a sport pilot I'd expect quite a few mistakes, so recommend him to get more training. I really don't see a major problem.
 
MAKG1 said:
Only if you believe there is no cure for mental illness.

Which is astonishingly wrong.

If someone keels over in your hallway, do you render aid, or say they are just going to die anyway, so just let them? It's directly and rather precisely analogous. A suicidal person is not rational and is not capable of rendering aid to themselves, any more than an unconscious person is.
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I have been around mentally ill people my whole life, first through my dad running State Hospital and going in with him, later through friends and relatives. I have never seen of a cure for mental illness. There are management programs that vary in effectiveness that I have seen, but I'm unfamiliar with cures. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
 
ClimbnSink said:
Look at all this anger, we need prescription drugs for everybody. Drugs keep your children inline it'll work for you too. Pop this pill and we will cure your mental illness. Serious question is mental illness ever cured or just delayed/mitigated?
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I am unaware of anyone being cured of mental illness.
 
Henning said:
I am unaware of anyone being cured of mental illness.
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Sometimes it happens, but more often (and for the situations you're more likely thinking of) the point isn't to cure it like appendicitis, but to manage it like essential hypertension.

People aren't generally "cured" of their high blood pressure. They can manage it and keep it under control, leading to increased quality and quantity of life. Sometimes that control is achieved by diet and exercise or other serious lifestyle modifications (compare to CBT and other proven "talk therapy" methods). Other times it requires diuretics or vasoactive substances (compare to antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc).

There is still a long way to go in understanding mental illness and how it can best be managed -- or maybe even cured. The same can be said of cardiology.

Yes, there are strange ethical / existential issues that arise when someone with mental illness expresses a desire not to be treated, and that could be another overlong post in itself. But is it fundamentally different than a diabetic in crisis who says they don't want an ambulance, when one shot of sugar would "fix" their reasoning process and save their life? (Also, the vast majority of psychiatric treatment is not done on a state-ordered basis, though having also worked in a state psych facility, I can see how that skews perception.)
 
MachFly said:
I haven't read the whole thread and the following comment is a direct response to the OP.

So this sport pilots sometimes gets close to limits and has made a few navigational errors while flying. Considering his training as a sport pilot I'd expect quite a few mistakes, so recommend him to get more training. I really don't see a major problem.
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I have suggested more training a couple of times. Once I was met with a blank stare. The second time I was told that this pilot wants to schedule another lesson to do some hood work. Seems like a strange priority for a sport pilot, but whatever. I'm kind of done with all this, and am sorry I even posted. I just hope it all doesn't end up as an NTSB report someday, but whatever ... it's not my responsibility.
 
Unregistered said:
I have suggested more training a couple of times. Once I was met with a blank stare. The second time I was told that this pilot wants to schedule another lesson to do some hood work. Seems like a strange priority for a sport pilot, but whatever. I'm kind of done with all this, and am sorry I even posted. I just hope it all doesn't end up as an NTSB report someday, but whatever ... it's not my responsibility.
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What is so wrong with hood work for a sport pilot ?
 
Concorde said:
What is so wrong with hood work for a sport pilot ?
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Nothing is inherently wrong with hood work, as a "just in case" kind of thing. But when this pilot struggles to get an LSA stopped on a 3,000-foot-plus runway (and we're not talking mountain or high-density altitudes), I would just think they might have other priorities first before hood work. That's all. I know everyone wants to jump on me and think I'm being an alarmist, or overly sensitive, or a busybody, but I know this pilot. There is a problem here, whether anyone wants to believe me or not.

OK, really, I'm done now. Thanks to all who have understood. And as one poster said, the best we can hope for is that absolutely nothing happens.
 
Unregistered said:
I have suggested more training a couple of times. Once I was met with a blank stare. The second time I was told that this pilot wants to schedule another lesson to do some hood work. Seems like a strange priority for a sport pilot, but whatever. I'm kind of done with all this, and am sorry I even posted. I just hope it all doesn't end up as an NTSB report someday, but whatever ... it's not my responsibility.
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You've done what you can. And if he does bring it up, you can always try to get him talking. Maybe he'll figure something out on his own.
 
mcmanigle said:
Sometimes it happens, but more often (and for the situations you're more likely thinking of) the point isn't to cure it like appendicitis, but to manage it like essential hypertension.

People aren't generally "cured" of their high blood pressure. They can manage it and keep it under control, leading to increased quality and quantity of life. Sometimes that control is achieved by diet and exercise or other serious lifestyle modifications (compare to CBT and other proven "talk therapy" methods). Other times it requires diuretics or vasoactive substances (compare to antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc).

There is still a long way to go in understanding mental illness and how it can best be managed -- or maybe even cured. The same can be said of cardiology.

Yes, there are strange ethical / existential issues that arise when someone with mental illness expresses a desire not to be treated, and that could be another overlong post in itself. But is it fundamentally different than a diabetic in crisis who says they don't want an ambulance, when one shot of sugar would "fix" their reasoning process and save their life? (Also, the vast majority of psychiatric treatment is not done on a state-ordered basis, though having also worked in a state psych facility, I can see how that skews perception.)
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The efficacy of the drugged management of mental illness is a far cry from that of hypertension. I used to talk to schizophrenics calling the house at 2am, now I have a lifelong friend who is schizophrenic, he is typically better off without meds because he has a family support structure (his sister), and an understanding community, that watch out for him and get him home or get him to take his meds when he appears to be losing it.

I lived with a girl medicated for depression for 2 years, didn't seem to help much whether she was taking the meds or not, sometimes they'd try a med on her and make her worse. More recently she got pregnant, off the meds, had a daughter and is now a reasonably happy well adjusted person.

My dad ended his carrier in psychiatry with the conclusion that drugs don't help people with mental illness, people help people with mental illness. That's where American and western mental health fail, people ignore people with mental illness rather than help them. All the drugs in the world won't help them. Look at the kid in California, the other one back east... All these nut job shootings. Why did they do them? They were mentally ill being ignored and rejected.
 
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