A nice 172 for under $40K....

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Sorry guys.

Here are pictures:

http://share.shutterfly.com/view/flashShareSlideshow.jsp?sid=0BbM3LZo1aMXXw

Specs as listed:

1968 Cessna 172K
N46399

4800TT
400 SMOH
Lycoming 0360-180hp installed 8/98
McCauley Propeller installed 8/98
Dual Michel MX300 Nav/Comm
Interior Replaced May 2001
Front Windshield Replaced April 2000
Remaining windows Replaced April 2001
New Paint Dec 2002
Rosen Sun Visors
Shoulder Straps front seatbelts.
Good Tires
Color Matched Wheel Pants.

Other comments / details:

For those of you who have been to McCaslin before, this is Gladys' plane. It really is a nice plane. Paint and interior are in good condition. A better description will be coming soon. Not sure on the price yet, I'll post that when I have it. I think it will be a good deal. The seller has also mentioned forming a partnership, so if there is interest that could be a possibility. The seller (Glady's grandson) actually lives in the DFW area, although the plane is in Oklahoma.

Asking $50k $42.5k - now I believe the owner would take less than $40k. I'm not sure how much less or what it is really worth, I asked owner today and will post when I get a response. See pictures below.

All of the above originally posted April 2010 on the DFW pilots board, then this comment added Aug 2011:

Just FYI, this plane is still for sale. I can't say for sure, but I believe the owner said he would consider in the $37k range.

Contact email : steve @ wotelectronics . com
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It's to the point these days that a Garmin 430 doesn't add value, instead, you just lose value for not having one. With a better panel it'd be a $40,000 172. Way it sits..I just doubt it..unless the market improves.
 
Oh, it's even had a 180hp engine conversion. I think you might want to change the subject line to attract more attention. Wasn't there someone on here a few days ago looking for a 180hp 172? I think he was talked into something bigger but maybe he would like this.
 
jesse said:
It's to the point these days that a Garmin 430 doesn't add value, instead, you just lose value for not having one. With a better panel it'd be a $40,000 172. Way it sits..I just doubt it..unless the market improves.
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In 2008 they'd sold around 50,000 430/530 radios and there were about 228,000 GA aircraft. Since many 430/530 installs included a pair of them it's probably somewhere south of 15-20% of the fleet that might have one, so having one would still be a value-add, but doubtful you'd ding a plane for not having one. And It's still north of $6K to add one.
 
I looked at basically that same plane when I was buying about 5 years ago with the same type of panel, bad glass and a left seat that was in desperate need of re-stuffing and upholstery. It was going for $55k. $40k or less seems about right these days.
 
LDJones said:
In 2008 they'd sold around 50,000 430/530 radios and there were about 228,000 GA aircraft. Since many 430/530 installs included a pair of them it's probably somewhere south of 15-20% of the fleet that might have one, so having one would still be a value-add, but doubtful you'd ding a plane for not having one. And It's still north of $6K to add one.
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6k just tp buythe unit if its WAAS, another 3 or so for installation.
 
LDJones said:
In 2008 they'd sold around 50,000 430/530 radios and there were about 228,000 GA aircraft. Since many 430/530 installs included a pair of them it's probably somewhere south of 15-20% of the fleet that might have one, so having one would still be a value-add, but doubtful you'd ding a plane for not having one. And It's still north of $6K to add one.
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Many buyers do. It's one of the main things people are looking for.
 
jesse said:
Many buyers do. It's one of the main things people are looking for.
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Then they are shopping planes that will be several $K more than average for that make/model. It's still a premium radio.
 
I can't see the listing details... is this an IFR rated plane?
 
Looking at the original listing that Troy referred to, nothing is stated that it is IFR rated, or if the rating is current. Looking at the photos, it appears as if all the required items are there, but again, no specific mention of the rating.
 
No matter what the price, it's still a 172.



:D
 
onwards said:
Yes, I actually almost bought this one. Then I got an analysis of what it costs to run an early model 210 from John Frank at CPA, and got scared away from it.
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When you use John Frank's high end FBOs for maintenance he may be right, but a freelanced A&P-IA won't cost you nearly that much..

My Friends 62, 210 that I did the maintenance on, cost him about $1,000 per year, annual, tires, oil, filters, and other minor maintenance items.
 
Tom-D said:
When you use John Frank's high end FBOs for maintenance he may be right, but a freelanced A&P-IA won't cost you nearly that much..

My Friends 62, 210 that I did the maintenance on, cost him about $1,000 per year, annual, tires, oil, filters, and other minor maintenance items.
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But how do I FIND a freelance A&P that really knows these planes? that's how I ended up conversing with John, actually; I didn't know where to look, and was pointed in that direction.

I do like the plane, and it does fit my mission pretty well, but if I have to count $300/hr to run it (as per John's numbers) I can't afford it. My own calculations were more in the $150/hr range all in (note that I don't care about capital costs, as a choice). Since I have never owned a plane, I assume he's more right than I am.
 
onwards said:
Yes, I actually almost bought this one. Then I got an analysis of what it costs to run an early model 210 from John Frank at CPA, and got scared away from it.
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You should ask John Franks how much the yearly maintenance costs are on a 182 we'd like to know.
 
Tom-D said:
You should ask John Franks how much the yearly maintenance costs are on a 182 we'd like to know.
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Easy. I have his buyer's guide - the example he provides for a 1974 182P comes down to $195/hr. Do note that he calculates everything in there, including cap costs ($22/hr) and full reserves: engine, prop, avionics, paint, interior, at $41/hr, although if you only count engine and prop you get $17/hr instead. Assuming you take off those two, you get $149/hr.

EDIT: looking at the 210 calculation, if I similarly take off cap costs and reserves for non-engine/prop, I get $214/hr.
 
onwards said:
But how do I FIND a freelance A&P that really knows these planes? that's how I ended up conversing with John, actually; I didn't know where to look, and was pointed in that direction.

I do like the plane, and it does fit my mission pretty well, but if I have to count $300/hr to run it (as per John's numbers) I can't afford it. My own calculations were more in the $150/hr range all in (note that I don't care about capital costs, as a choice). Since I have never owned a plane, I assume he's more right than I am.
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try doing a search in the FAA web site for A&P-IAs in your postal code. and start making calls. Find any A&P-IA that will work at your hangar or has a place to work.

I did all the wrench bending on the 210 in my friends hangar, using his hydraulic power source, my hand tools and he bought parts. I normally took (12 X $50 per), hours to complete the annual, gear swing and all, and the inspection was 350.00. your costs will vary but they shouldn't by much.

John Franks will assume that an annual will be $10,000 and the labor at $200 per hour. He and those like him are why the 210 is such a deal in todays market.

In Reality I doubt my friend spent 5k on maintenance in 10 years, and his 210 went thru a pre buy inspection at the local Cessna dealer with no problems noted, and a assessment of 15k below market. at 35k 1 year ago.
 
onwards said:
Easy. I have his buyer's guide - the example he provides for a 1974 182P comes down to $195/hr. Do note that he calculates everything in there, including cap costs ($22/hr) and full reserves: engine, prop, avionics, paint, interior, at $41/hr, although if you only count engine and prop you get $17/hr instead. Assuming you take off those two, you get $149/hr.

EDIT: looking at the 210 calculation, if I similarly take off cap costs and reserves for non-engine/prop, I get $214/hr.
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I believe you should do a 1 years lease and see for your self what the real cost is..

If you are really running close to the edge of your budget that you can't afford a major engine expense in the first 10 hours of flying you really shouldn't be buying anyway.

If you have a $200k budget buy a $100k aircraft and stand by,

when you consider that 90% of owners will never overhaul the engine in their ownership period why have a reserve?
 
onwards said:
Easy. I have his buyer's guide - the example he provides for a 1974 182P comes down to $195/hr. Do note that he calculates everything in there, including cap costs ($22/hr) and full reserves: engine, prop, avionics, paint, interior, at $41/hr, although if you only count engine and prop you get $17/hr instead. Assuming you take off those two, you get $149/hr.
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Pretty darn close to our spreadsheet.

Tom regularly espouses the benefits of the mythical beast known as the independent A&P/IA.

Tom doesn't know he's a unicorn. ;) ;) ;)

I know of two such people. Tom and a guy down in Arizona.

I'm pretty sure dialing random phone numbers from the FAA A&P roster isn't a wise way to find a good mechanic. :nono:

The way to make your 210 affordable is co-ownership. Are you really going to fly it enough by yourself?

Just a thought.
 
denverpilot said:
Pretty darn close to our spreadsheet.

Tom regularly espouses the benefits of the mythical beast known as the independent A&P/IA.

Tom doesn't know he's a unicorn. ;) ;) ;)

I know of two such people. Tom and a guy down in Arizona.

Funny, I know 7 here in Puget Sound area..

I'm pretty sure dialing random phone numbers from the FAA A&P roster isn't a wise way to find a good mechanic. :nono:

Ever ask for references

The way to make your 210 affordable is co-ownership. Are you really going to fly it enough by yourself?

Just a thought.
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We all know the early 210 is a retract 182 with a fuel injected 0-470, and yet the 210 becomes different.

scratching my head over that.
 
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Tom-D said:
We all know the early 210 is a retract 182 with a fuel injected 0-470, and yet the 210 becomes a orphan.

scratching my head over that.
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How do you mean, orphan? I'd fly an early 210. Just wouldn't be as cheap as my 182...

You've also mentioned the 205 recently which is a nifty airplane too. I got no problems with the 205 either.

Heck, I'll fly anything. I'm a proud airplane slut. ;) Don't get much opportunity to do so, though.

The 182's 10 minutes away in the hangar and I have keys. It's not hard to figure out why I fly it more than anything else! ;)
 
denverpilot said:
How do you mean, orphan? I'd fly an early 210. Just wouldn't be as cheap as my 182...

You've also mentioned the 205 recently which is a nifty airplane too. I got no problems with the 205 either.

Show me any post that I recommended the 205?

Heck, I'll fly anything. I'm a proud airplane slut. ;) Don't get much opportunity to do so, though.

The 182's 10 minutes away in the hangar and I have keys. It's not hard to figure out why I fly it more than anything else! ;)
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orphan is what I took away from your other post above.
 
Ahh I see now. Well you might have to swing the gear once in a while. Gear in general is going to add some hours of MX over the long haul.

I don't know any 210 owners who either didn't spend money on the gear every year in preventative maintenance or who neglected to and paid someone to work on it hard, later on.

Other than that, yeah. It's just a 182. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Ahh I see now. Well you might have to swing the gear once in a while. Gear in general is going to add some hours of MX over the long haul.

I don't know any 210 owners who either didn't spend money on the gear every year in preventative maintenance or who neglected to and paid someone to work on it hard, later on.

Other than that, yeah. It's just a 182. ;)
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But does it cost the same to run as a 182? the entire story to my understanding is that it costs a lot more... if it costs about the same as a 182RG, then I'm OK with that and will look at early 210's again.
 
denverpilot said:
Ahh I see now. Well you might have to swing the gear once in a while. Gear in general is going to add some hours of MX over the long haul.

I don't know any 210 owners who either didn't spend money on the gear every year in preventative maintenance or who neglected to and paid someone to work on it hard, later on.

Other than that, yeah. It's just a 182. ;)
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The more parts the bigger opportunity for failure, you must be proactive with the 210, for example, on a 172 you can allow the nose gear to deteriorate to the point of shimmy, do that with the 210 and it will eat your lunch.

I've worked on the 210 for a long time, and when you repair stuff as it wears and or leaks you will not have the gear failures it is famous for, neglect it and you will pay and pay big.
 
onwards said:
But does it cost the same to run as a 182?

Pretty much, but owners want to extract every knot they can out of it so they tend o run higher power settings. I fly the 210 at 170-175 MPH and it uses 14-16 GPH. Its a matter of choice, I will pay the extra fuel to be there quicker. you can use lower power settings and slow down, but I don't think it saves any fuel on a long trip.

the entire story to my understanding is that it costs a lot more... if it costs about the same as a 182RG, then I'm OK with that and will look at early 210's again.
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When you upgrade to a larger car it will cost more to maintain, same carries over to aviation, but I do not believe that the 210 is the maintenance hog that it's made out to be. or at least it shouldn't be, but when you buy a Dog, it could be. just like any other machine.
 
Tom-D said:
I've worked on the 210 for a long time, and when you repair stuff as it wears and or leaks you will not have the gear failures it is famous for, neglect it and you will pay and pay big.
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That's my understanding too. All birds like TLC. ;)
 
I noticed that at the moment, there are two VFR equipped RV-6As for sale with asking prices just under $40k on trade-a-plane.com.

I'm more tempted by those than a nice 172 with a fancy IFR panel asking "just under" $40k.
 
How many 210 owners do you know? What preventive MX did they do?

Based on 26 years of 210 ownership averaging almost 300 hours/yr, I'm calling BS on that rumor. The power packs occasionally need some attention, but the MX expense was no different than keeping up the gear motor and gear box on the A-36.

denverpilot said:
Ahh I see now. Well you might have to swing the gear once in a while. Gear in general is going to add some hours of MX over the long haul.

I don't know any 210 owners who either didn't spend money on the gear every year in preventative maintenance or who neglected to and paid someone to work on it hard, later on.

Other than that, yeah. It's just a 182. ;)
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Jim Logajan said:
I noticed that at the moment, there are two VFR equipped RV-6As for sale with asking prices just under $40k on trade-a-plane.com.

I'm more tempted by those than a nice 172 with a fancy IFR panel asking "just under" $40k.
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When flying any home built I always have that nagging thought " what did he Mess up, what did he improve upon?" ever creak, groan becomes "WHAT WAS THAT"
 
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