a leak, and now a big hole

[woodstock]

in my dining room ceiling. apparently the hot water supply pipe split/sprang a leak near the T joint.

ps. he fixed the leak. he'll be back in a few days to patch the hole.

 

[fgcason]

Ouch!

It looks like you're going to need some more tools Elizabeth.

Pipes are easy to fix. Just shut the source off and drain the water out of them first.
Drywall isn't hard to do either.

PVC for hot water suppy lines? No metal pipes? Hmmmm.....

 

[woodstock]

Frank, that was the first thing my Dad said! you DO NOT want to know what this house goes for - and it's a little over three years old - and it's got PVC pipes in it. (you really don't want to know - the DC area prices are almost as nutty as San Francisco).

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

After you fix the plumbing in your house it should be worth even more !

I miss ol' Jack Handey's wisdom & like the quote you have there...

 

[Dean]

First the HVAC and now this. If you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have any at all would you. Sounds like me at my annual, first this, then that.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Wow; does code allow water heaters in the attic?
Maybe it was in an upper room but just the same I'd prefer them in a mechanical room off to the side of the house (mine is).

 

[woodstock]

the water heater is in the utility room downstairs.

Dave, so far it's worth $85.32 more!! after he fixes the drywall, another two hundred! he works for cheap at least. it's also good it was right where he made the cut - this leak could have been anywhere along the water lines.

the furnace only cost 100 bucks b/c I have a home warranty. initially thought they were a pain but this year at least it covered itself.

makes me wonder if I want to go into a second home. add another 700 miles to this...

 

[Bob Bement]

You might want to give your plane a good walk around before you go flying. Just to make sure your luck isn't still with you.

 

[Brian Austin]

PVC for hot water suppy lines? No metal pipes? Hmmmm.....

I forgot the designation but there is a grade of PVC pipe for hot water now. It's been in use for a few years, iirc.

Personally, though, if I'm building, I won't be using it.

 

[fgcason]

Frank, that was the first thing my Dad said! you DO NOT want to know what this house goes for - and it's a little over three years old - and it's got PVC pipes in it. (you really don't want to know - the DC area prices are almost as nutty as San Francisco).

I probably have a vague clue what you paid for plastic pipes. "Luxury" just means triple the price for the same inexpensive wooden box. When I was doing initial design concepts for the cabin I'm going to build (do it myself, no contractors/builders/idiots), I would walk into the $250K to 600K+ homes under construction locally for ideas and such. About the only thing I learned on those outings was what not to do when building a place. Don't feel too bad. None of the examples I saw used metal pipes for anything either. I think some even used plastic nails to hold the place together.

I forgot the designation but there is a grade of PVC pipe for hot water now. It's been in use for a few years, iirc.

I've seen those. Ok, sure, fine, whatever floats someone elses livingroom furniture. Call me a caveman if you want but I have never been overly impressed by plastic that's heated and under pressure especially if it might get frozen solid from time to time. I'll spend the extra $$ to do it right the first time. Yes, metal breaks too but it takes a lot more effort.

Personally, though, if I'm building, I won't be using it.

I'm right there with you. My cabin parts list calls for pipes that require a hacksaw and torch for hot and cold water lines. PVC is limited to wiring so there will be no loose wires behind panels just waiting for a nail to be banged through them. Water + PVC just isn't going to be happening.

Signed,
Ogg the Caveman

 

[woodstock]

I probably have a vague clue what you paid for plastic pipes. "Luxury" just means triple the price for the same inexpensive wooden box. When I was doing initial design concepts for the cabin I'm going to build (do it myself, no contractors/builders/idiots), I would walk into the $250K to 600K+ homes under construction locally for ideas and such. About the only thing I learned on those outings was what not to do when building a place. Don't feel too bad. None of the examples I saw used metal pipes for anything either. I think some even used plastic nails to hold the place together.

closer to your top end mentioned...

I've seen those. Ok, sure, fine, whatever floats someone elses livingroom furniture. Call me a caveman if you want but I have never been overly impressed by plastic that's heated and under pressure especially if it might get frozen solid from time to time. I'll spend the extra $$ to do it right the first time. Yes, metal breaks too but it takes a lot more effort.

one reason they may get away with this is that this part of the country is less likely to have frozen pipes be an issue. hopefully.

 

[Richard]

PEX is what y'all are thinking of.

http://www.ppfahome.org/tips/articlestips.html

Elizabeth, you be sure that before he completes the drywall repair that the moisture content of all the building materials has been addressed. Should be (08-15% MC) You WILL have a mold problem if this has not been remediated.

 

[woodstock]

PEX is what y'all are thinking of.

http://www.ppfahome.org/tips/articlestips.html

Elizabeth, you be sure that before he completes the drywall repair that the moisture content of all the building materials has been addressed. Should be (08-15% MC) You WILL have a mold problem if this has not been remediated.

how do you check that? is it a matter of letting the hole stay open longer to dry out?

 

[Richard]

Elizabeth, keeping the hole open and letting it air out would work for building materials like solid wood framing but materials such as the gypsum wall board and plywood subfloor should probably be removed. The reason is because the water damage has made those materials friable which means their strength is pretty much gone and will provide minimal purchase for fasteners. Also, they still will hold moisture sufficient to support mold growth.

Think about what happens when you slap it all back together--it's dark, warm, and moist with little air circulation. If I were wanting to cultivate mold that is exactly the environment I would create. Eliminate ALL moisture and permeable water damaged materials.

If it were me I would remove the drywall back to the next stud or joist. Since studes are typically 16"OC (on center) this means you may have a hole larger than you think neccessary. Actually, count on it.

For air drying of solid wood framing members, get one of those fans the carpet guys use for airing out wet carpet. Do not heat the room above typical day/night heating. Ask the carpet stores if you can use theirs or get on down to the tool rental yard.

 

[woodstock]

he said he was going to replace at least a 4x5 foot patch of dry wall - which is much bigger than where the damage was. I'll talk to him about this and see what he proposes, thanks for the heads up.

 

[EdFred]

Arrrrrrrrrrgh!

Liz, you are never allowed to come to my house. After reading this thread, I went out into my back living room, and found it leaking!!

Ice had built up the edge on my lower pitched section of roof, and the water backed up and found a way through. So I had to climb up on the roof, and try and get all the ice off it so the water would drain off.

I blame you!

 

[woodstock]

Arrrrrrrrrrgh!

Liz, you are never allowed to come to my house. After reading this thread, I went out into my back living room, and found it leaking!!

Ice had built up the edge on my lower pitched section of roof, and the water backed up and found a way through. So I had to climb up on the roof, and try and get all the ice off it so the water would drain off.

I blame you!

well, as long as your furnace doesn't go out and your Dad spend almost the ENTIRE month in the hospital (5 re-visits) then maybe it is only a co-inkydink!

 

[Richard]

Arrrrrrrrrrgh!

Liz, you are never allowed to come to my house. After reading this thread, I went out into my back living room, and found it leaking!!

Ice had built up the edge on my lower pitched section of roof, and the water backed up and found a way through. So I had to climb up on the roof, and try and get all the ice off it so the water would drain off.

I blame you!

The infamous ice damming. There are roofing products available to eliminate this. Damage will continue to occur until the ice damming problem is arrested and previous episodes will only become exacerbated. For most folks the remedy is springtime.

 

[EdFred]

well, as long as your furnace doesn't go out and your Dad spend almost the ENTIRE month in the hospital (5 re-visits) then maybe it is only a co-inkydink!

Well, I didn't have the furnace go, but I did have one of my hot water heaters spring a leek and make a lake in my MFU room a couple months ago. Then the pressure release valve wouldn't shut all the way on the other one and made another lake 2 days later.

The infamous ice damming. There are roofing products available to eliminate this. Damage will continue to occur until the ice damming problem is arrested and previous episodes will only become exacerbated. For most folks the remedy is springtime.

Well, I got all the ice off. So it should alleviate and further leaks. However, as I pull down the drywall, I'm finding that this area is probably huge. And the entire ceiling in my back living room will have to come down, and looks like I will have to replace the roof. 30'+ x 11' Will probably just turn the low roof into a 2nd story balcony, and make sure it's water tight.

 

[Ghery]

I'll give you another consideration when building...

I just paid a plumber almost $200 to fix a toilet in our house. $200 for a toilet??? I can buy one for less than that. Here's what happened, and the lesson learned from the plumber...

The water valve in the tank would not shut off after filling the tank. Remove the tank cover, lift the lever and still no joy. This isn't right. OK, I've replace fill valves before, no sweat. So, I kneel down and try to turn off the isolation valve at the floor. Oops. It will turn, it won't turn off the water and it leaks at a significant rate around the shaft for the handle until I open it up again. OK, now what? The water is running (wasting water) and I can't shut it off. So, I went downstairs to a closet where there's a shutoff valve for the whole house and closed it. As it was getting nearly closed I heard the water stop running as the valve in the toilet finally shut. Reopening the main supply valve did not cause the toilet to start running again.

Now I have a problem. I can fix the toilet, but the isolation valve is not working and I really don't want to leave that broken. So, call a plumber.

Plumber comes out. I show him the problem. Go downstairs, shut off the house and open a faucet to drain the system. He opens up the valve in the toilet tank and there's about half of a gasket from the gate valve (isolation valve) sitting in the guts of the fill valve. No wonder it won't shut off. Replaced a couple parts from a hangar queen he carries and that's fixed. OK, now about that isolation valve...

Simple compression fitting mount on copper pipe. However, my chance of removing it without a special tool for removing the compression fitting from the pipe is non-existent. That's where the plumber and his $50 tool come into play. Removed the old valve and noted that the other half of the gastket was working its way through, getting ready to stop up the works again.

Replaced the gate valve with a ball valve. Won't have this problem again. Not now, not 10 years from now.

Lesson learned - if I'm building or remodeling a house again in the future, all valves used for isolating fixtures or the house will be gate valves. Less to go wrong, much longer life expectency.

Elizabeth, isn't home ownership fun? Only been at it for about 30 years and I'm still learning new stuff every day or so.

Oh, and I've had pipes break, too. Had a house completely re-piped when the old galvanized pipes started leaking. New copper throughout. Many neighbors were doing the same. Seems that when the subdivision was built 25-30 years earlier a substandard grade of pipe was used and a lot of people were making local plumbers happy.

 

[Richard]

Well, I didn't have the furnace go, but I did have one of my hot water heaters spring a leek and make a lake in my MFU room a couple months ago. Then the pressure release valve wouldn't shut all the way on the other one and made another lake 2 days later.



Well, I got all the ice off. So it should alleviate and further leaks. However, as I pull down the drywall, I'm finding that this area is probably huge. And the entire ceiling in my back living room will have to come down, and looks like I will have to replace the roof. 30'+ x 11' Will probably just turn the low roof into a 2nd story balcony, and make sure it's water tight.

Dude!!!!! Put your water heater in a smitty pan which drains to the outside. When you begin to think of water heaters and plumbing fixtures as designed leaks penetrating into your home then you will see the need to proactively address the potential problem.

Ice damming is pervasive in that although you have gotten rid of the ice this time around the damage is done and there is now a new route for water to quickly enter your structure. It's insidious--you won't know it until you smell the mold or see the water marks. But those become noticeable only after the water has been doing it's damage for some time. Very much after the fact.

Being in snow country I would think you'd be wise to have even a balcony engineered for the loading. Whatever you do make sure it's sloped! 30 x 11'? Next thing you know, you'll be enclosing that space--make sure it's solid for a long time to come.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Oh geez Liz...When it rain's it poors. Hope you get it patched pretty quickly.

 

[Richard]

Ghery, forgive me, but that's a hoot! You would not believe how often that occurs to so many people. The fix is real simple: work the isolation/shut off valves through through there entire range a couple times per year. Think about it, how often do people turn off the shut off valve, say, below their kitchen faucet? Fast forward to wanting to change out the faucet for a nicer model, go to shut off a stuck valve with dried out, desintegrated washer so the valve doesn't completely seat. Twist a bit more so and the valve stem or some other part contorts out of shape if not burst altogether--water leak. The inlet to the dishwasher (hidden blo the cabs) is another great one. Pity the poor repairman who comes to tweak the washer and is the first guy to touch the valve in 15 years or maybe since the house was built. That old corroded thing is held together by dust bunnies and sometimes all it takes is just to look at it.

I did a complete bathroom remodel that started with a leaky valve at the sink.

 

[Ghery]

I did a complete bathroom remodel that started with a leaky valve at the sink.

That failed gate valve was only 9 years old. We did a total remodel of that bathroom, including re-locating the toilet, when we bought the place.

I did a complete bathroom in our house in California when I had a leak in the shower. By the time I quit pulling water damaged materials I was down to bare studs on the walls and plywood subfloor on the floor. Rebuilt it with green sheet rock and tile in mortar, rather than glued to the rock. Hot mopped pan in the shower, then tile over that. I did the sheet rock and carpentry, hired out the rest. Unless the people who bought it from us 10 1/2 years ago remodelled due to different tastes it should still be going strong.

It never ends...

 

[Lawreston]

he said he was going to replace at least a 4x5 foot patch of dry wall - which is much bigger than where the damage was. I'll talk to him about this and see what he proposes, thanks for the heads up.

Elizabeth: His advice is good; BTDT. My house was finished in 09/83; I bought it in 08/85. Many have said that it's a very well-built house. Downstairs in the large family room(basement location) a small damp spot appeared in the ceiling after a couple years. I traced it to be only about two feet horizontal from the main floor shower drain.

Blame it on the plumber and, likely, a Friday quitting time. Under the shower drain cover where there should have been a water-tight rubber washer/O-ring at the top of the drain pipe was plumber's putty stuffed around said drain pipe. Minor amounts of water which managed to seep through the plumber's putty had followed down the outside of the drain pipe and onto/across the horizontal pipe(as seen in your photo). Small drips from same permeated about 2 sq. inches in the ceiling. My drywall man removed "4 or 5 feet" of the surrounding ceiling, replaced same ------------- good as new. (Of course, I had already replaced the plumber's putty with the $3.00 part which the original plumber had neglected to install at alleged Friday quitting time."

HR)

 

[EdFred]

Dude!!!!! Put your water heater in a smitty pan which drains to the outside. When you begin to think of water heaters and plumbing fixtures as designed leaks penetrating into your home then you will see the need to proactively address the potential problem.

Ugh, that means taking both of them out to install the pans.

Ice damming is pervasive in that although you have gotten rid of the ice this time around the damage is done and there is now a new route for water to quickly enter your structure. It's insidious--you won't know it until you smell the mold or see the water marks. But those become noticeable only after the water has been doing it's damage for some time. Very much after the fact.

Which is why I'm calling a buddy to tear the whole roof off and put on the balcony/roof off the second floor master suite.

Being in snow country I would think you'd be wise to have even a balcony engineered for the loading. Whatever you do make sure it's sloped! 30 x 11'? Next thing you know, you'll be enclosing that space--make sure it's solid for a long time to come.

Am going to do a solid floor balcony which I will just shovel/sweep off, so the snow loads won't be an issue.

 

[Dakota Duce]

I guess I'll add my 2 cents.

Elizabeth.. I noticed you said the water lines were "PVC". Those are the type of lines that were used some years ago. Now days.. and as far as I know, most (if not all) states now require "CPVC" to be used as water lines to meet code requirements.

The difference between the two is this. The "PVC" lines are "white" in color.. and have the letters "PVC" printed on the pipe in black. The "CPVC" lines are "yellow/cream" colored.. and have the letters "CPVC" printed on them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to disagree, but Ghery stated in a post..

"Lesson learned - if I'm building or remodeling a house again in the future, all valves used for isolating fixtures or the house will be gate valves. Less to go wrong, much longer life expectency."

Experience has shown me that you're better off going with "BALL" valves.. and staying away from gates. The major problem with gates..?? You can drop a gate, then, (in most cases), you're "S-O-L"! It's not that often you can re-pick a gate. Even if you do a "tear down" and "re-build", your gate will most likely be messed up.

Hope some of this helps.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[woodstock]

Dakota - you're right, they are CPVC.

 

[Richard]

Well, at least I knew what Ghery meant.

Elizabeth, one other thing I just thought of. Have your man check if the CPVC pipes are not too tightly clamped and that the holes they may pass through in different building materials are large enough to not bind the pipe as it expands when heated. CPVC has a high expansion coefficient and has been noted to double its size with a 100F temp rise from normal (room temp) heating.

I'm thinking there is a constriction on the pipe which caused the T fitting to fail. Check to be sure.

 

[Ghery]

I guess I'll add my 2 cents.

Elizabeth.. I noticed you said the water lines were "PVC". Those are the type of lines that were used some years ago. Now days.. and as far as I know, most (if not all) states now require "CPVC" to be used as water lines to meet code requirements.

The difference between the two is this. The "PVC" lines are "white" in color.. and have the letters "PVC" printed on the pipe in black. The "CPVC" lines are "yellow/cream" colored.. and have the letters "CPVC" printed on them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to disagree, but Ghery stated in a post..

"Lesson learned - if I'm building or remodeling a house again in the future, all valves used for isolating fixtures or the house will be gate valves. Less to go wrong, much longer life expectency."

Experience has shown me that you're better off going with "BALL" valves.. and staying away from gates. The major problem with gates..?? You can drop a gate, then, (in most cases), you're "S-O-L"! It's not that often you can re-pick a gate. Even if you do a "tear down" and "re-build", your gate will most likely be messed up.

Hope some of this helps.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

My typo. I meant BALL valves. Oops. Good catch.

 

[woodstock]

Well, at least I knew what Ghery meant.

Elizabeth, one other thing I just thought of. Have your man check if the CPVC pipes are not too tightly clamped and that the holes they may pass through in different building materials are large enough to not bind the pipe as it expands when heated. CPVC has a high expansion coefficient and has been noted to double its size with a 100F temp rise from normal (room temp) heating.

I'm thinking there is a constriction on the pipe which caused the T fitting to fail. Check to be sure.

ok, I'll ask him.

how hot are water heaters usually kept? I don't have mine scalding hot. plenty hot, sure, but not boiling.

 

[Richard]

ok, I'll ask him.

how hot are water heaters usually kept? I don't have mine scalding hot. plenty hot, sure, but not boiling.

I have mine set at 120 degrees. But I also have a recirc pump which helps to keep the hot, hot.