A high school senior asks you how to become a pilot. What is your advice?

[TangoWhiskey]

With the economy, airlines, and pilot salaries much less "romantic" than in years past, what advice would you give?

 

[tonycondon]

go to the airport!

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Give it to him/her straight about the life style and changes in the industry. Let them decide if that's where their heart lies.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Historically a Pilot is a respected professional occupation.

At it's highlest level, ATP, the compensation is good but the hours and stress of the job justify any perception of high pay.

At it's lowest levels your underpaid, overworked and not respected.

It takes a high level of education and dedication to acheive the highest level.

The above can be said for about any profession you look at.

The view out the office window can not be beaten by any other profession except astronaut and they only have the great view for a very few days.

Like any other profession it has it's trade offs.

For the forseeable future we will need pilots. Of course 100 years ago we said the same about train engineers.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The airline industry is in decline. The days of the great salaries and great schedules are fading, and as Bruce Springsteen once sang "and they ain't coming back."

Personally I've had a great ride and did very well but those behind me don't have it so good. Like a previous poster stated tell them the truth about lifestyle and changes in the industry and let them make up their own mind. And tell them not to buy into the hype of the large "pilot mills".

 

[tonycondon]

oh i see, you are trying to give them career advice. I am biased but I have always preferred the community college flight training route (0 - CFI in 2 years instead of 4) then complete a degree at a 4 year school in a program that can result in real employment. Im sure glad that my parents pushed me to get a "real" degree...

 

[RMCN172RG]

oh i see, you are trying to give them career advice. I am biased but I have always preferred the community college flight training route (0 - CFI in 2 years instead of 4) then complete a degree at a 4 year school in a program that can result in real employment. Im sure glad that my parents pushed me to get a "real" degree...

I would agree with Tony on the best and safest plan of action for Post High School pursuit of a Career. This allow the student to make an informed decision at the two year mark on the actual degree with the option for a decent Job building experience towards their pilot goal the last two years if that remains the plan.

 

[steingar]

Get an engineering degree, a good job, and then buy an airplane and learn to fly where and when you want for fun.

 

[Jack Spectre]

Get an engineering degree, a good job, and then buy an airplane and learn to fly where and when you want for fun.

I'd have to agree with this.

If the student is adamant about being a commercial pilot, I'd recommend getting a bachelor's degree first. My neighbor is a former commercial pilot and he told me that it's difficult to get an ATP job with a passenger airline if you don't have a 4 year degree. Apparently they'll often pick a lower time pilot with the degree vs. a higher time pilot without one.

 

[Everskyward]

Here's a recent similar thread.

Wonder if we scared Bryce off because we never heard back from him.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I'm slightly biased since I am enrolled in an aviation undergraduate degree program at Purdue. I ended up entering with my private and instrument (which saved me quite a bit of cash), but I think the quality of training at a university program is much different and in many cases far surpasses that at other flight schools. That said, I entered with so many credits from high school that I will be pursuing a minor in business management, and more than likely a dual major. This is a must (at least for me) considering the history of this industry.

The industry is definitely on the rebound. If HR 3371 goes through unchanged, don't count on an airline job right out of college like it used to be like.

Best,
Jason

 

[TMetzinger]

The industry is definitely on the rebound. If HR 3371 goes through unchanged, don't count on an airline job right out of college like it used to be like.

Best,
Jason

I assume you mean with a regional airline?

 

[taters]

I'd have to agree with this.

If the student is adamant about being a commercial pilot, I'd recommend getting a bachelor's degree first. My neighbor is a former commercial pilot and he told me that it's difficult to get an ATP job with a passenger airline if you don't have a 4 year degree. Apparently they'll often pick a lower time pilot with the degree vs. a higher time pilot without one.

Nearly all "majors" require the 4 -year degree just to even start an appication. ..Get that 4 year non-aviation..get ratings p61..that way you wont have a student loan that rivals most mortgage payments .

 

[Everskyward]

I have had the opportunity to fly with pilots who have come from many different backgrounds. However, by the time I flew with them their schooling was quite a few years in the past. I'll have to say that, generally speaking, if you didn't know what someone's background was, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in their flying. People who come from an aviation college background may have a slight edge in the "culture" of aviation and be a little more procedurally oriented, but in general I would say that in the end it doesn't make that much difference.

 

[jesse]

Nearly all "majors" require the 4 -year degree just to even start an appication. ..Get that 4 year non-aviation..get ratings p61..that way you wont have a student loan that rivals most mortgage payments .

+1 ... student loans that rival mortgage payments are not fun when the Walmart greeter brings home a larger paycheck.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I assume you mean with a regional airline?

Any 121 operator. Regionals included.

 

[TMetzinger]

Any 121 operator. Regionals included.

I asked because for the majors I hadn't heard of folks getting hired out of college in decades.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Number one thing I'd say to a high school senior, is go do something in college your interested in. I hear all these people saying "get a degree outside of aviation, if you want to be a pilot". A degree that you have no interest in is going to be hard as hell to get through. College is hard enough, don't make it into 4 years of things you don't want any part of. Perhaps tell them to go to a community college, get the ged-ed credits out of the way for low costs. Get the private done, and make sure they actually enjoy flying. Then, start thinking about looking to a 4 year institution.

I'm slightly biased since I am enrolled in an aviation undergraduate degree program at Purdue. I ended up entering with my private and instrument (which saved me quite a bit of cash), but I think the quality of training at a university program is much different and in many cases far surpasses that at other flight schools. That said, I entered with so many credits from high school that I will be pursuing a minor in business management, and more than likely a dual major. This is a must (at least for me) considering the history of this industry.

The industry is definitely on the rebound. If HR 3371 goes through unchanged, don't count on an airline job right out of college like it used to be like.

Best,
Jason

You honestly believe 3371 is going to raise pay? All it does is close down the applicant pool, so there will truely be a shortage. Once that shortage hits the airlines hard, they'll run to congress and beg for the multi-crew license. Then, they will run ab-initio programs to become an airline pilot. Indentured Servitude the follows shortly behind, with now low pay and a contract forcing to stick with an airline for 10 years or so. And, I'm going to have to disagree with your position on college flight training. I've learned so much more in the Part 61 environment of various FBO's than I did in the Part 142 of Embry-Riddle. At Riddle, there are so many rules, that as a non-employee, you essentially can't fly at night or in instrument conditions.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

You honestly believe 3371 is going to raise pay? All it does is close down the applicant pool, so there will truely be a shortage.

Nope, and I didn't state that in my post. I support just about everything else in the bill with the exception of the ATP requirement without an exemption or exception(s) for graduates of university flight programs.

And, I'm going to have to disagree with your position on college flight training. I've learned so much more in the Part 61 environment of various FBO's than I did in the Part 142 of Embry-Riddle. At Riddle, there are so many rules, that as a non-employee, you essentially can't fly at night or in instrument conditions.

I respect your opinion and still hold mine, but keep in mind that there are far more university flight programs than the one offered at Embry-Riddle which frankly I find a complete joke and unrealistic. The program at Purdue (which is operated under Part 61 but internally run like a structured part 141 school) is completely different. It is well structured, yet offers real world experience that you will find flying the line after graduating (night, IMC, turbojet, turboprop, 2 and 3 crew environments, etc.) I can't speak to the other schools out there, but I have also heard great things about their programs. Honestly, perhaps Riddle should focus more on the structure and quality of their training then the length of pants required to fly in one of their aircraft.

Best,
Jason

 

[Everskyward]

Number one thing I'd say to a high school senior, is go do something in college your interested in. I hear all these people saying "get a degree outside of aviation, if you want to be a pilot". A degree that you have no interest in is going to be hard as hell to get through. College is hard enough, don't make it into 4 years of things you don't want any part of.

I certainly agree with this. If there is nothing else in which you are interested and you can afford it, go for the degree in aviation. However, I would be cautious about falling into the trap of being too idealistic about whatever you pick. Everything is going to have its pros and cons.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You honestly believe 3371 is going to raise pay? All it does is close down the applicant pool, so there will truely be a shortage. Once that shortage hits the airlines hard, they'll run to congress and beg for the multi-crew license. Then, they will run ab-initio programs to become an airline pilot. Indentured Servitude the follows shortly behind, with now low pay and a contract forcing to stick with an airline for 10 years or so.

There will be no pilot shortage coming for years to come. Right now the industry has thousands of highly qualified pilots unemployed.

Airlines have greatly reduced capacity and that market will not come back for years.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Nope, and I didn't state that in my post. I support just about everything else in the bill with the exception of the ATP requirement without an exemption or exception(s) for graduates of university flight programs.

I like a lot of the aspects of 3371 as well, except the entire ATP minimum deal. It puts an arbitrary value on safety. Somehow, the minute you hit 1500 hours, you are automatically a better pilot.

I respect your opinion and still hold mine, but keep in mind that there are far more university flight programs than the one offered at Embry-Riddle which frankly I find a complete joke and unrealistic. The program at Purdue (which is operated under Part 61 but internally run like a structured part 141 school) is completely different. It is well structured, yet offers real world experience that you will find flying the line after graduating (night, IMC, turbojet, turboprop, 2 and 3 crew environments, etc.) I can't speak to the other schools out there, but I have also heard great things about their programs. Honestly, perhaps Riddle should focus more on the structure and quality of their training then the length of pants required to fly in one of their aircraft.

Its great that you get all that experience, and I'll agree it helps. I wouldn't hesitate to say flight training at Purdue is better than Riddle. Heck, I'd go out on a limb and say that flight training ANYWHERE is probably better than Riddle. Riddle doesn't teach how to fly an airplane. They teach how to fly profiles and procedures. Heck, I know guys that I've taken in a 1970's vintage C152 that freaked out. First words were, "where's the PFD/MFD, GPS and fancy looking interior." Quite frankly, its embarrassing to the institution, in my opinion. There is no way in heck that a 125 page operations manual is required to fly a Cessna 172. Don't care what your doing with it, you don't need that big of ops manual.

But on the subject of Purdue. I've heard it is next to impossible to get any significant time in the Kingair/Beechjet. And, with the new fleet renewal, it will get even harder, because of the shrinkage of the fleet. Is there any truth to that?

 

[jesse]

I support just about everything else in the bill with the exception of the ATP requirement without an exemption or exception(s) for graduates of university flight programs.

What suggests a university flight graduate is a better pilot? I certainly haven't seen that to be the case in the real world. My observations have shown that it really is up to the individual.

What makes the best pilot? The safest pilot? The safest pilot ever would have a terrible dispatch rate. There is a balance of safety, risk, and mission...The only way to master that balance is by trial and error. Hope your bag of luck is big enough.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

But on the subject of Purdue. I've heard it is next to impossible to get any significant time in the Kingair/Beechjet. And, with the new fleet renewal, it will get even harder, because of the shrinkage of the fleet. Is there any truth to that?

Well, not really. The King Air time is still there for juniors. Beechjet time is academically competitive and also based on 727 sim evaluations (this semester limited to the top 2 in the class).

Going forward however, the 2 King Airs and Beechjet will go away and the Phenom 100 will replace it. That won't happen for at least another year or two (earliest delivery on the Phenom is likely October or November of 2010) Right now the plan (though not officially announced) is to offer 10 hours in the Phenom 100 to every flight major, whether that be through in-airplane training or flying pax trips, or a combination between the two. Unknown at the present time is if and who will be eligible for a type rating, but that hasn't been decided yet.

That said, the old 727-100 sim will be going away and is supposed to be replaced with a Phenom 100 full motion sim. A CRJ sim is also in the mix of discussion.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Well, not really. The King Air time is still there for juniors. Beechjet time is academically competitive and also based on 727 sim evaluations (this semester limited to the top 2 in the class).

Going forward however, the 2 King Airs and Beechjet will go away and the Phenom 100 will replace it. That won't happen for at least another year or two (earliest delivery on the Phenom is likely October or November of 2010) Right now the plan (though not officially announced) is to offer 10 hours in the Phenom 100 to every flight major, whether that be through in-airplane training or flying pax trips, or a combination between the two. Unknown at the present time is if and who will be eligible for a type rating, but that hasn't been decided yet.

That said, the old 727-100 sim will be going away and is supposed to be replaced with a Phenom 100 full motion sim. A CRJ sim is also in the mix of discussion.

Thanks for the info. I think its awesome that you even get a shot at that kind of time at the university level. I can assure you, if that was a possibility at Riddle, I probably would still fly on campus, rather than going the Part 61 route. At the school I went to prior to Riddle (Central Missouri), they had a Kingair A90. But, I believe they decided to get rid of it (due to lack of use) and replace it with a 737-800 FTD. I'm not willing to take the CRJ course at riddle, because it basically boils down to a 5,000 course, that gives you a few hours in an FTD, and nothing to really show for it.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

What suggests a university flight graduate is a better pilot? I certainly haven't seen that to be the case in the real world. My observations have shown that it really is up to the individual.

Isn't it always up to the individual, though? The experience and quality of instruction offered at universities is often unparalleled with other flight schools. This doesn't guarantee a university flight graduate is a better pilot, but in many cases they exhibit better professionalism, performance, and resource management than an average pilot earning certificates through other mediums.

Valuable 2 and 3 crew environments (727 simulator courses, etc), turbojet time, and realistic ground and flight operations all contribute to a higher level of awareness and experience. This isn't to say that a university flight graduate is a better airline pilot than someone off the street, but it certainly offers advantages and opens greater opportunities in many situations.

Best,
Jason

 

[jesse]

Isn't it always up to the individual, though? The experience and quality of instruction offered at universities is often unparalleled with other flight schools. This doesn't guarantee a university flight graduate is a better pilot, but in many cases they exhibit better professionalism, performance, and resource management than an average pilot earning certificates through other mediums.

Valuable 2 and 3 crew environments (727 simulator courses, etc), turbojet time, and realistic ground and flight operations all contribute to a higher level of awareness and experience. This isn't to say that a university flight graduate is a better airline pilot than someone off the street, but it certainly offers advantages and opens greater opportunities in many situations.

Best,
Jason

There are also some really less than impressive university flight schools -- that for example don't let their commercial pilot rated student file an IFR flight plan even if it is VFR. The fact that it is a "university school" is not enough to start making exceptions on ATP certificates.

Could I agree that a certain training standard could possibly deserve an exception? Maybe. But just because it is a "university" sure shouldn't be the qualifier.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

There are also some really less than impressive university flight schools -- that for example don't let their commercial pilot rated student file an IFR flight plan even if it is VFR. The fact that it is a "university school" is not enough to start making exceptions on ATP certificates.

Could I agree that a certain training standard could possibly deserve an exception? Maybe. But just because it is a "university" sure shouldn't be the qualifier.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree. It just seems as though the properly accredited and well reputed university flight programs are not given a greater opportunity when it comes to hiring than those that limit their students' experience (which as you mentioned includes not being able to file an IFR flight plan, etc).

 

[jesse]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree. It just seems as though the properly accredited and well reputed university flight programs are not given a greater opportunity when it comes to hiring than those that limit their students' experience (which as you mentioned includes not being able to file an IFR flight plan, etc).

I think we're saying the same thing. Ultimately I don't think any pilot should walk out of any school and pick up an ATP unless they've been flying professionally in the real world for quite some time.

You'll never have a training environment that presents the same challenges you'll experience when flying the real line. I think an ATP is already too easy to get and should *really* mean something when you get it. At the same time -- if it were that difficult -- there should be the jobs willing to pay for that effort.

 

[sba55]

Easy. Don't give up on your dreams - you only live once. Get a college degree from a well respected university (no no-names). Don't go to an aviation school, because nobody will respect that degree in case you ever want to make more than 5 figures outside of aviation. Get your ratings along the way. Done.

It's really not a particularly difficult path.

-Felix

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Easy. Don't give up on your dreams - you only live once. Get a college degree from a well respected university (no no-names). Don't go to an aviation school, because nobody will respect that degree in case you ever want to make more than 5 figures outside of aviation. Get your ratings along the way. Done.

It's really not a particularly difficult path.

-Felix

By the same token, what good is a biology degree? Say you get the degree, and go fly for a career. After 2 years of flight instructing, and a year in a 135 operator, you go fly 121 air carrier stuff. After 4 years of that, you get furloughed. So now, you've got a bio degree 7 years out of college, with no experience in the field.

I don't buy this "don't major in aviation stuff". If you truely want to major in aviation, do it. Don't do it just to get a career though. I know as a high school student a few years ago, people told me the same thing. Do you know how hard it is for an 18 year old to see what they want to do, and then be told by many, many people to not chase their dream, because "it isn't worth it"

 

[gismo]

With the economy, airlines, and pilot salaries much less "romantic" than in years past, what advice would you give?

First I'd make certain the senior's question was about becoming an airline pilot. If that's the case then I'd recommend option #1 since you need a 4 yr degree in something (might as well be a marketable non-aviation degree) to be considered by any major carrier. And AFaIK there are ways to acquire the necessary pilot creds at the same time without enrolling in an "aviation college", abd probably for a bit less money.

One other thing, the younger the pilot by the time they're ready to make a bid for an airline pilot career the greater their chances to make it pay well before they retire.

 

[alaskaflyer]

The view out the office window can not be beaten by any other profession except astronaut and they only have the great view for a very few days.

I'd give them a run for their money Just sayin' :smile:

 

[Everskyward]

By the same token, what good is a biology degree? Say you get the degree, and go fly for a career. After 2 years of flight instructing, and a year in a 135 operator, you go fly 121 air carrier stuff. After 4 years of that, you get furloughed. So now, you've got a bio degree 7 years out of college, with no experience in the field.

In some ways I think it depends on the degree. Isn't biology one of those fields where you need an advanced degree to get anywhere? I fully understand what you are saying though. I have a degree in Landscape Architecture from a reputable university (I think the same one that Felix attended) however I never worked in the field. Do I think that I could have gotten a job doing it 10 years after I graduated? Probably not. At this point (much further along than 10 years) it's totally worthless except for the fact that it's a 4-year degree. Would I have majored in aviation if I had decided soon enough that I wanted to be a pilot? Probably. Would it have made a difference? I don't have any idea.

 

[purdue1014]

Easy. Don't give up on your dreams - you only live once. Get a college degree from a well respected university (no no-names). Don't go to an aviation school, because nobody will respect that degree in case you ever want to make more than 5 figures outside of aviation. Get your ratings along the way. Done.

It's really not a particularly difficult path.

-Felix

As someone who is a few months removed from being a high school senior, and who got all their ratings in under two years, (a la Tony) I agree wholeheartedly with this.

My high school had a strong aviation program and most kids in it (myself included) started taking classes with the thought that we wanted to become THAT "grey haired airline captain." With the help of my high school classes and just meeting/talking with people, "professional aviation" is no longer a main career goal for me. I would tell the senior to talk with as many people as they can/investigate over the course of their training what jobs are out there and what their opinions are on them to get some sort of a sense if "professional aviation" is something they want to continue to pursue.

Basically, talk with as many people as you come across...

My 2 cents, anyway...YMMV

 

[sba55]

(I think the same one that Felix attended

UCD or Berkeley? I had no idea you too went to school there!!!

 

[Everskyward]

UCD or Berkeley? I had no idea you too went to school there!!!

Berkeley. Weirdly I had lunch there today.

 

[sba55]

Berkeley. Weirdly I had lunch there today.

Nice. They do have some good weather there now. I was just there last Wednesday and will be again on Thursday...

 

[wabower]

Several observations:

1. WTF does a HS senior know about what he/she may want to do for his career? Has anybody quantified the cost of pursuing a "university aviation education" vs. any other field of study? Do we just let them pick whatever they want to do out of a hat and write the check?

2. I have flown in the right seat, as a judge during the annual NIFA instrument flying competition, with students and graduates of all of the top collegiate aviation programs (ERAU, IL, ND, both OSU's, PU, et al) and those from many of the smaller schools (Central MO, SE OK, etc) as well. Our judging team discussed their relative abilities in depth (usually over dinner and adult beverages in places like Monroe, LA, Waco, TX, Belleville, IL and other central US locations where they held the competitions), and could detect no discernable difference in pilot skills. The good pilots were those who had their act together and possessed the aptitude and skill levels to become better than the others. Where they went to school didn't seem to matter. I've ridden with kids at the local airport who were as good or better in the cockpit.

3. I have also flown with hundreds of professional pilots over the years, and found it interesting that those who attended professional pilot training schools or academies would occasionally come up with some obscure but interesting factoid they had picked up in school (maybe about high-altitude weather or something similar) that the average toad might not know. Insofar as planning and managing a trip and flying the airplane, however, they were no better (or worse) than the guy who washed airplanes and caught a lucky break flying for the local 135 operator.

4. To personalize the situation, let's say the HS graduate is your kid or (in my case) grandkid. "Hey Pawpaw, I've decided to major in aviation and take all the pilot courses. Mom has told me all about how you guys flew around in your planes when they were kids, and how you used the plane for business and then how you flew the big jets around, and then how you got started doing whatever it is you do now, and I've decided I want to do it too." I'm all for the kid, but we've got a lot of talking to do before any checks are written from here. OTOH, if he's talking about majoring in physics at an Ivy, (which mine just started a few weeks ago) that can get real expensive for Grampa in a hurry.

 

[Ddayle]

I wish i could have selected 'all of the above'. I think the post have shown there is no 'one' way . DaveR