A funny song

But I s'pose it gives the fanboys something to watch during all that time that they're not using the iPhone apps they downloaded.
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I use a handful of apps from the app store on my iphone on a daily basis. But for every app I've downloaded that gets daily use, there are probably five or ten that I've tried once or twice and then deleted.

So my own experiences could easily support a headline like "only 10-20% of iphone apps are even touched the second day after downloading", which sounds bad, but in reality, it's not particularly a problem, particularly given that nearly all of the apps I've tried have either been free, or nearly so.

So we shouldn't confuse a "try a bunch, like a few" model with "nobody even uses these stupid apps".
-harry
 
mantakos said:
I use a handful of apps from the app store on my iphone on a daily basis. But for every app I've downloaded that gets daily use, there are probably five or ten that I've tried once or twice and then deleted.

So my own experiences could easily support a headline like "only 10-20% of iphone apps are even touched the second day after downloading", which sounds bad, but in reality, it's not particularly a problem, particularly given that nearly all of the apps I've tried have either been free, or nearly so.

So we shouldn't confuse a "try a bunch, like a few" model with "nobody even uses these stupid apps".
-harry
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Well I can tell you that there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish my Blackberry could do this. Or this. Or this.

The question is where the line between that "bunch" and that "few" is.
 
ReverendSlappy said:
Well, that is certainly a long ad. But I s'pose it gives the fanboys something to watch during all that time that they're not using the iPhone apps they downloaded.
Click to expand...

Find a survey of how many Windows users use the crapware apps - including Microsoft apps - that were forced on to the PCs they bought.

As Harry says, you get to try free apps. You have obligation to buy them, so you have no obligation to use them.

I downloaded like 4 ToDo list application and deleted them unused when I settled on Things.

Notice that we get a choice. Whatta concept.
 
mikea said:
Find a survey of how many Windows users use the crapware apps - including Microsoft apps - that were forced on to the PCs they bought.
Click to expand...

Y'know, having a conversation with a Mac fanatic is like having a conversation with a Sox fan: It just can't go more than about 15 seconds without a "B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the Cubs!!11!1!"
 
And then there's this little crime against humanity: http://revver.com/video/723898/drummer-iphone-app/

If I'm not mistaken, I know somebody who knows the guy who made that (although it might be another similar app... I'm guessing there's about 150 of them that do the exact same thing) and made an obscene amount of money off it. That's just... Wrong.
 
Well I can tell you that there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish my Blackberry could do this. Or this. Or this.
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The existence of bad things cannot be used as proof of the non-existence of good things.

I like "reQall" as a todo list, reminder, etc; google maps; "TWC" for weather, "AeroWeather" for quick access to metars/tafs; "Now Playing" for movie listings; "Sportacular" for sports scores; "urbanspoon"; "yelp"; and "pandora". I've wasted a fair amount of time playing "Morocco" (an "Othello" clone), "Word Warp", and "Sol Free".

Every one of these was free. I think I may be cheap.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
The existence of bad things cannot be used as proof of the non-existence of good things.
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No, but when there are so many of the bad/useless/ridiculous things (and one of them even makes a prominent appearance in an ad) one has to start to question whether they're really being discerning enough in determining what's "good."

And I don't care what anybody says... For somebody to make a big amount of money off something like that Drummer app... is just wrong. Like bordering on Pet Rock wrong.
 
... one has to start to question whether they're really being discerning enough in determining what's "good."...
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An app doesn't necessarily make an Apple commercial by virtue of its "utility", so much as by wowing with "coolness", per the old "sell sizzle, not steak" principle. The apps I use on a daily basis really wouldn't make for an exciting TV commercial.

I don't think that list of "must have apps" is really intended to be taken seriously, it seems to mostly be a collection of "novelties".
-harry
 
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As does the list of the most-downloaded apps.
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Well, on that list, I see some novelties (koi pond, ibeer), and some games, some social networking (facebook, aim), some music listening (pandora, shazam), and some music playing (which also approach games and novelty).

But I'm not sure what we're supposed to expect on a "top" list. If there was an excellent "last will and testament" application, I'm pretty sure it's not going to outdownload "iFart" any sooner than PBS starts getting better ratings then "Dancing With the Stars".

We should keep in mind that this is a very new platform, and it reminds me a bit of the old home computer days. Back when I had a Commodore VIC 20, and then a C64, we were enthusiastic about any software that made it do anything. All the early software was crappy, and it was fairly easy to make something that got a good share of the audience.

But over time, as the audience grew, more sophisticated software started to arrive that were less "demonstrations", and more complete products.

But, again, you can open the finest restaurant in town, but it's not going to make McDonald's go out of business. Your free and $.99 software is always going to "outsell" more tangible software for which developers need to charge reasonable fees.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
Well, on that list, I see some novelties (koi pond, ibeer), and some games, some social networking (facebook, aim), some music listening (pandora, shazam), and some music playing (which also approach games and novelty).

But I'm not sure what we're supposed to expect on a "top" list. If there was an excellent "last will and testament" application, I'm pretty sure it's not going to outdownload "iFart" any sooner than PBS starts getting better ratings then "Dancing With the Stars".

We should keep in mind that this is a very new platform, and it reminds me a bit of the old home computer days. Back when I had a Commodore VIC 20, and then a C64, we were enthusiastic about any software that made it do anything. All the early software was crappy, and it was fairly easy to make something that got a good share of the audience.

But over time, as the audience grew, more sophisticated software started to arrive that were less "demonstrations", and more complete products.

But, again, you can open the finest restaurant in town, but it's not going to make McDonald's go out of business. Your free and $.99 software is always going to "outsell" more tangible software for which developers need to charge reasonable fees.
-harry
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I guess what I'm getting at once again is the gulf between Apple hype and Apple reality: We keep hearing about how "amazing" it is and how "revolutionary" it is and how it's "changes the way you do" whatever it is you do. And then we look at the numbers and see that a giant chunk of it's users are using it to pretend to drink beer.

And in any case, none of that dispels what I consider to be its primary problem with regard to my needs: It gets more and more obvious every day that the Blackberry and the like are for people interested in effective communications, while the iPhone is more for people who have an unavoidable need to play Crash Bandicoot no matter where they are.
 
We keep hearing about how "amazing" it is and how "revolutionary" it is and how it's "changes the way you do" whatever it is you do. And then we look at the numbers and see that a giant chunk of it's users are using it to pretend to drink beer.
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But recall that these arguments were made, and partially justified, before the app store even existed, just by virtue of the device's talent as a web browsing platform. What iphone users are really using their iphone for is "anywhere web browsing", and this doesn't show up on the list of most downloaded apps.

Consider the physical size of the screen, its resolution (480x320), its hardware-based acceleration for 2D and 3D graphics and video, and the implementation of the web browser software with "pinch gestures" to zoom, animated scrolling, automatic orientation "flipping" based on accelerometer, and you have a major leap in capability. I've only played with Blackberries in a store, but I had a Windows Mobile phone for a long time, and the iphone was like night and day in terms of its web browsing capabilities.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
But recall that these arguments were made, and partially justified, before the app store even existed, just by virtue of the device's talent as a web browsing platform. What iphone users are really using their iphone for is "anywhere web browsing", and this doesn't show up on the list of most downloaded apps.

Consider the physical size of the screen, its resolution (480x320), its hardware-based acceleration for 2D and 3D graphics and video, and the implementation of the web browser software with "pinch gestures" to zoom, animated scrolling, automatic orientation "flipping" based on accelerometer, and you have a major leap in capability. I've only played with Blackberries in a store, but I had a Windows Mobile phone for a long time, and the iphone was like night and day in terms of its web browsing capabilities.
-harry
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Don't get me wrong: The web experience on an iPhone beats anything else I've used too.

But again, we come back to the difference between the "real nice implementation/next logical progression" of reality and the "zomg it's the most amazing thing ever!!!!11!1 Give us $600 now!" of Apple reality distortion.

Edit: And even that probably wouldn't bother me so much were it not for the dishonesty that seems to be more prevalent in it these days. It's not just a matter of over-hyping "this thing we made is really, really awesome" so much as it is completely distorting reality in a dishonest "everything else sucks really really bad!" kind of way. That kind of stuff is more obvious in the "Mac vs. PC" stuff, but it's there with the iPhone too, and it's what rubs me the wrong way about these kinds of ads.
 
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Miller Lite neither tastes great nor is less filling, but we can't blame them for suggesting this.

If I had to list the "new" technology that appeared first in the iPhone, about the only thing I'd even suspect would be the "pinch gesture" as a means of zooming. Certainly nothing else about the hardware or software is really new.

Apple has never been "revolutionary", they've never really invented anything, but they are extremely competent in their design and engineering. They make very good "choices". When they make bad choices ("no third-party apps on the iphone!"), they're pretty good about fixing them. They have a knack for making their competitors look incompetent for not making these same choices themselves, which always seem obvious in retrospect.

So there's nothing revolutionary about the iphone in terms of technology, but it is very competently implemented, and good choices were made, and at about a time when other smart phones were "only mildly painful" to use as web browsers, they pushed the right boundaries and achieved "almost pleasant to use". So it was a well-timed hop, in the right direction, and long enough to take us from safely on one side of a threshold onto the other.

Of course, there are certain realities here, and web browsing demands a touchscreen, whereas messaging demands a keyboard, so different priorities will drive you towards different devices.
-harry
 
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mantakos said:
Miller Lite neither tastes great nor is less filling, but we can't blame them for suggesting this.
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But again, (going back to the OP, since "Mac vs. PC" is where it's most egregious) I'm less concerned with their hyping of their own upside (though they definitely, definitely do that) than I am with the hyperbole they apply to the others' downside. It's the equivalent of a Miller Lite ad that says, "Bud Light costs 50 times as much and will make girls not like you and will give you cancer and Budweiser isn't fixing it." And being serious about it. And saying it sneeringly.
 
I'd say the article is mostly right. I've downloaded free apps *knowing* I was probably only going to use them once - For example, a tuner app and a metronome app when I was practicing music with someone else. I hardly ever play with anyone else any more, so I used 'em and deleted 'em. I'll reinstall them if the need ever arises again; if I had more space on my iPhone (which is almost completely full just due to all the podcasts I'm behind on listening to) I wouldn't have bothered deleting them.

Here's what I have still installed on my phone:

* Twittelator - A Twitter client. Use it probably twice a day.
* ForeFlight File - Flight plan filer. See the "iPhone Apps" thread.
* CoPilot - Flight planner. Also in the iPhone Apps thread.
* AeroWeather - An aviation weather app. See the thread.
* Attitude - An attitude indicator that uses the accelerometer. Mostly just a fun demo of the iPhone.
* Remote - Apple's very well-done free program to control iTunes on any computer, or control any AppleTV, on your WiFi network. Very cool - Album art gets beamed back to the phone.
* Light. Yes, a flashlight app. It *is* useful: Turns the screen white and up to full brightness (the ambient light sensor would otherwise turn it to the lowest brightness in the dark). Yes, I use this as a real flashlight to see where I'm going in the dark. I don't carry a flashlight in my pocket at all times. :rolleyes:
* X-Plane - Yes, the flight simulator. See the iPhone Apps thread.
* Shanghai - The game. For when I have some time to waste.
* Crosswords - game, downloads the latest puzzles from several newspapers.
* iProcrastinate - A to-do list. I tend to procrastinate more than I should, so I don't use it much. :rofl:
* Zenbe Lists - Another to-do list (well really it's an anything list), which will sync with your account on the lists.zenbe.com web site so you can enter your lists online if you want.
* iPint, mentioned below, for geeky demonstrations.
* PhoneSaber, a light-saber app for demoing the phone to Star Wars geeks.

ReverendSlappy said:
Well I can tell you that there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish my Blackberry could do this. Or this. Or this.
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Well, I got iPint for free (before it got kicked off the store because it's pretty much an ad) instead of iBeer. That one's still on my phone. So is RotaryDialer, which lets you dial the phone with an old-fashioned rotary dial (and yes, it actually does work and dial the phone.) I can't say I use 'em much, but I like doing "demos" with them as to all the crazy crap you can do.

photo1235428099987.jpg


ReverendSlappy said:
No, but when there are so many of the bad/useless/ridiculous things (and one of them even makes a prominent appearance in an ad) one has to start to question whether they're really being discerning enough in determining what's "good."
Click to expand...

What's so useless about having a level built into your phone? You won't use it for building a house, but you can certainly use it to straighten that picture hanging on your wall. That's not useless.

And what's wrong with "bad/useless/ridiculous" things anyway? Are you against having fun? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Are you against having fun? :dunno:
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No. I'm against paying iPhone-prices for such low-brow versions of it, and knowing that money will inevitably be used to buy more sneering, petty, pernicious ads that do little more than distort reality.
 
ReverendSlappy said:
Don't get me wrong: The web experience on an iPhone beats anything else I've used too.

But again, we come back to the difference between the "real nice implementation/next logical progression" of reality and the "zomg it's the most amazing thing ever!!!!11!1 Give us $600 now!" of Apple reality distortion.

Edit: And even that probably wouldn't bother me so much were it not for the dishonesty that seems to be more prevalent in it these days. It's not just a matter of over-hyping "this thing we made is really, really awesome" so much as it is completely distorting reality in a dishonest "everything else sucks really really bad!" kind of way. That kind of stuff is more obvious in the "Mac vs. PC" stuff, but it's there with the iPhone too, and it's what rubs me the wrong way about these kinds of ads.
Click to expand...

Since I've owned the iPhone, every time I use someone else's mobile device, it makes me think one thing:

Everything else sucks really really bad. :yes:
 
ReverendSlappy said:
No. I'm against paying iPhone-prices for such low-brow versions of it, and knowing that money will inevitably be used to buy more sneering, petty, pernicious ads that do little more than distort reality.
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iPhones don't cost $600 any more. They're $199. For what the device does, WITHOUT any third-party apps, that's a steal.

I don't think that the ads distort reality at all. "There's an app for that." If you look at the screen, they are 100% correct in saying so.
 
ReverendSlappy said:
Don't get me wrong: The web experience on an iPhone beats anything else I've used too.

But again, we come back to the difference between the "real nice implementation/next logical progression" of reality and the "zomg it's the most amazing thing ever!!!!11!1 Give us $600 now!" of Apple reality distortion.

Edit: And even that probably wouldn't bother me so much were it not for the dishonesty that seems to be more prevalent in it these days. It's not just a matter of over-hyping "this thing we made is really, really awesome" so much as it is completely distorting reality in a dishonest "everything else sucks really really bad!" kind of way. That kind of stuff is more obvious in the "Mac vs. PC" stuff, but it's there with the iPhone too, and it's what rubs me the wrong way about these kinds of ads.
Click to expand...

With the iPhone vs. Windows Mobile it really is "everything else sucks really, really bad." I have both, with two outbound Windows Mobile phones. What would I know. I can actually, cruise the web on my iPhone. It was near impossible on WM5 and WM6, even with 3G.

The iPhone is so overhyped that Steve Balmer announced that the next "innovation" in Windows Mobile will be a touch screeen. Where DO they get such ground-breaking ideas?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
iPhones don't cost $600 any more. They're $199. For what the device does, WITHOUT any third-party apps, that's a steal.
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No, it's a rip-off, and it'd be a rip-off at half the price. I suppose if I really just had to play Crash Bandicoot wherever I am, maybe it'd be worth more. But I can get everything I need in a device built for people whose main factors in choosing what to purchase are things other than caprice and whimsy, and pay much, much less: I could walk down the street to the Sprint store right now and get a BlackBerry Curve, a BlackBerry Pearl, a Centro, a Q, or a Treo and pay half that or less. And if I wait a few months, I'll probably be able to get any of the above for free.

And they all have flashlights too, no download necessary: It's called pushing a button.

flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think that the ads distort reality at all. "There's an app for that." If you look at the screen, they are 100% correct in saying so.
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I'm talking about the kind of ad in your OP. We could start, for example, with the fact that a Mac is a PC.
 
mikea said:
With the iPhone vs. Windows Mobile it really is "everything else sucks really, really bad." I have both, with two outbound Windows Mobile phones. What would I know. I can actually, cruise the web on my iPhone. It was near impossible on WM5 and WM6, even with 3G.

The iPhone is so overhyped that Steve Balmer announced that the next "innovation" in Windows Mobile will be a touch screeen. Where DO they get such ground-breaking ideas?
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Again: Nobody's mentioned Windows Mobile but the Mac people. "B-b-b-b-b-b-but the Cubs..."
 
ReverendSlappy said:
Again: Nobody's mentioned Windows Mobile but the Mac people. "B-b-b-b-b-b-but the Cubs..."
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Again. You keep saying that "the other stuff sucks" is a lie. It isn't.

Somehow you can say "other stuff doesn't suck" but you don't mean Windows stuff?

If you mean Linux you're closer to being right
 
mikea said:
Again. You keep saying that "the other stuff sucks" is a lie. It isn't.

Somehow you can say "other stuff doesn't suck" but you don't mean Windows stuff?
Click to expand...

I'm talking Vista and XP vs. OS X, not iPhone vs. Windows Mobile.

And no, neither come anywhere close to being even in the same universe of suck as those insipid, petty little ads would lead your average newbie/non-tech person to believe.

mikea said:
If you mean Linux you're closer to being right
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Depending on the circumstance, yeah, that too. OS X typically ranks third on my list of recommendations.
 
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Nobody's mentioned Windows Mobile but the Mac people.
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Well, you did list "Treo" and "Q" as among the devices that people would get for half the price if they weren't ruled by caprice and whimsy. The Moto Q and the latest Treos are Windows Mobile devices, and suck in very tangible ways.

Of course, instead of an iphone, I could also pay about $200 for a Blackberry 8830 or Storm. What psychological limitations or superiorities would lead me to make that choice?
-harry
 
mantakos said:
Well, you did list "Treo" and "Q" as among the devices that people would get for half the price if they weren't ruled by caprice and whimsy. The Moto Q and the latest Treos are Windows Mobile devices, and suck in very tangible ways.

Of course, instead of an iphone, I could also pay about $200 for a Blackberry 8830 or Storm. What psychological limitations or superiorities would lead me to make that choice?
-harry
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Better, what kind of evil force would make people try to view the web on those?
 
mantakos said:
Well, you did list "Treo" and "Q" as among the devices that people would get for half the price if they weren't ruled by caprice and whimsy. The Moto Q and the latest Treos are Windows Mobile devices, and suck in very tangible ways.
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That's true. But I'm really talking about the "Mac vs. PC" nonsense like in the OP.

mantakos said:
Of course, instead of an iphone, I could also pay about $200 for a Blackberry 8830 or Storm. What psychological limitations or superiorities would lead me to make that choice?
-harry
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I have the 8830 and am pretty happy with it, but have to confess I haven't even touched a Storm.

But as far as "superiorities" go with the 8830? One word: Keyboard.

Edit: Correction... I have an 8330.
 
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mikea said:
Better, what kind of evil force would make people try to view the web on those?
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Ehh, the web is no dream on the 8830, nobody's denying that.

Edit: Same as above. I have the 8330. Not the first (or second or third) time I've made that mistake.
 
But as far as "superiorities" go with the 8830? One word: Keyboard.
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As I mentioned before, web browsing really begs for an "all touchscreen" approach, whereas messaging begs for "keyboard".

My old Windows Mobile HTC had the nicest keyboard I've ever seen on any phone, much better than the smaller Blackberry or Treo keyboards. But the combination of a large screen and a slide-out keyboard made for a bulky and heavy device, as compared to the smaller and lighter Blackberries, and the crappy Windows software and low resolution screen made browsing painful, despite a fairly generously physically sized screen.

Meanwhile my newer iphone's "soft keyboard" is a major step down from the HTC, and also a step-down from the Blackberry, in terms of messaging, but the big screen wins for web browsing.

So you have to decide where your priorities lie. In my case, I decided that the superior web interface more than made up for inferior text entry.

Ultimately, what I'd really like is an iphone with a slide-out keyboard. I'd gladly accept "larger and heavier" in exchange for "superior browsing + superior keying".
-harry
 
mantakos said:
As I mentioned before, web browsing really begs for an "all touchscreen" approach, whereas messaging begs for "keyboard".

My old Windows Mobile HTC had the nicest keyboard I've ever seen on any phone, much better than the smaller Blackberry or Treo keyboards. But the combination of a large screen and a slide-out keyboard made for a bulky and heavy device, as compared to the smaller and lighter Blackberries, and the crappy Windows software and low resolution screen made browsing painful, despite a fairly generously physically sized screen.

Meanwhile my newer iphone's "soft keyboard" is a major step down from the HTC, and also a step-down from the Blackberry, in terms of messaging, but the big screen wins for web browsing.

So you have to decide where your priorities lie. In my case, I decided that the superior web interface more than made up for inferior text entry.

Ultimately, what I'd really like is an iphone with a slide-out keyboard. I'd gladly accept "larger and heavier" in exchange for "superior browsing + superior keying".
-harry
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That would be worth $200 to me.

Ultimately, what I'm really looking for is something between the iPhone and things like the VAIO VGN-UX280 I have.

Actually, no, that's not quite it... What I'd really like is something with a mini-PC's capability, in an iPhone+keyboard form factor.
 
Seriously, with my fat fingers, the iPhone keyboard kicks the crap out of all those little tiny chiclet keyboards on the other "smart" phones. On the iPhone I can hit one key (which will be in the middle of my fat finger) rather than 9 keys surrounding the one I wanted. And if I miss, it'll correct for me anyway.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Seriously, with my fat fingers, the iPhone keyboard kicks the crap out of all those little tiny chiclet keyboards on the other "smart" phones. On the iPhone I can hit one key (which will be in the middle of my fat finger) rather than 9 keys surrounding the one I wanted. And if I miss, it'll correct for me anyway.
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And that's the exact opposite experience that I've had. Obviously we type in different ways, but long story short: I need to be able to feel the keyboard. No physical keyboard is a deal-breaker, period.
 
mantakos said:
...Meanwhile my newer iphone's "soft keyboard" is a major step down from the HTC, and also a step-down from the Blackberry, in terms of messaging, but the big screen wins for web browsing.

So you have to decide where your priorities lie. In my case, I decided that the superior web interface more than made up for inferior text entry.

Ultimately, what I'd really like is an iphone with a slide-out keyboard. I'd gladly accept "larger and heavier" in exchange for "superior browsing + superior keying".
-harry
Click to expand...

Apple should be able fix the lack of keyboard on the current iPhones with a software upgrade. Just put in an interface for a bluetooth keyboard. There are foldable, rollable, and invisible keyboards on the market now. It would kill Steve, but they could let the user decide what they like.

While they're in the Bluetooh driver, support Bluetooth audio so you can play music over wirelsss headphones or a car or GPS system.
 
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