A frustrated PPL student

MAKG1 said:
Every job I've ever applied for had a qualification that the applicant must be able to communicate and work with a team. A practical test is NOT a job application, and it is a big mistake to think of it as one. There is no such qualification. The examiner is providing a service and is being rather well paid for it. A rigorous application of the published rules are expected. Until the PTS says "the applicant shall have good manners," it is an abuse of power for an examiner to take that into account.

And if I were the victim of such abuse, I would expect my instructor to come to my defense -- publicly if necessary -- with no excuses about "protecting my job." The instructor is hired by the student; that IS his job.
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Never said it was a job application, but if you go into a job interview with a bad attitude and do not get the job and blame the interviewer there are issues with you not the interviewer. The same thing in my mind applies in taking a checkride. If you go into the checkride with a defiant, condescending, or otherwise disrespectful attitude, I would propose that the DPE will more likely find a way to fail you than if you go into the checkride with a friendly, respectful attitude. If you think that is unfair well life is just that way. If I remember correctly the checkride is done to make sure you can fly safely, and part of that is making sure you have adequate pilot decision making skills, part of which is recognizing the 5 hazardous attitudes and neutralizing them. I think being defiant, condescending and otherwise disrespectful to the DPE would fall under the antiauthority category. I would suspect the instructor would have a hard time defending you if that was the case. You are selling a whole package to the DPE, and anything deficient in that package could result in a failure.
 
In order to get an ATP certificate one must be of "Good moral character" 61.153(c)

Honestly, having a poor attitude will get you no where in life. You get pulled over and you argue with the cop, you're getting a ticket. If you sit there respectfully and talk with the cop you may get off easier. Trying to challenge people of authority with your poor attitude rarely works. I'm not saying people of authority are always correct, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about disagreements.

My DPE is an interesting person. I enjoy talking with him outside of examinations (after all, I've taken several lessons with him too) and he's a great guy and an outstanding pilot (how many other guys dodged a head-on midair then flew an airplane with half a wing missing to the ground?) but his examinations are difficult. He takes information that an applicant doesn't know personally because he's the chief CFI and in charge of standardization throughout the school. I heard my fair share of "Damnit Miranda!" during my exam, most relatively small things that clearly weren't enough to bust me. It's never bothered me the way he acts, I'm used to it. But I know some applicants who didn't fly with him as much as I did (about 4 hours each for my PPL and my IR) and were very taken aback by his style. I think that taking the time to know a DPE before you test with him, or even on the day of the test getting in some "normal" conversation, will make all the difference in how you feel towards him or her.
 
I just soloed last week with 20 hours. I really did not start landing decently until about the 16 hour mark. My instructor wanted all the landings to be greasers. I finally had to tell him that the only way I was going to learn to land is by landing. I told him that it was either my airplane or his, not both. This may have been slightly aggressive on my part, but the next lesson my landings got better.
 
Z06_Mir said:
In order to get an ATP certificate one must be of "Good moral character" 61.153(c)

Honestly, having a poor attitude will get you no where in life. You get pulled over and you argue with the cop, you're getting a ticket. If you sit there respectfully and talk with the cop you may get off easier. Trying to challenge people of authority with your poor attitude rarely works. I'm not saying people of authority are always correct, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about disagreements.

My DPE is an interesting person. I enjoy talking with him outside of examinations (after all, I've taken several lessons with him too) and he's a great guy and an outstanding pilot (how many other guys dodged a head-on midair then flew an airplane with half a wing missing to the ground?) but his examinations are difficult. He takes information that an applicant doesn't know personally because he's the chief CFI and in charge of standardization throughout the school. I heard my fair share of "Damnit Miranda!" during my exam, most relatively small things that clearly weren't enough to bust me. It's never bothered me the way he acts, I'm used to it. But I know some applicants who didn't fly with him as much as I did (about 4 hours each for my PPL and my IR) and were very taken aback by his style. I think that taking the time to know a DPE before you test with him, or even on the day of the test getting in some "normal" conversation, will make all the difference in how you feel towards him or her.
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My DPE is a New Yorker through and through. However, as rough and abrasive he is he truly gives a crap about what he does and takes great care in making sure that the exam is thorough and complete. Even with his New York personality I never found him to be demeaning or insulting. I actually have found both of my checkrides with him challenging enough to be a good test of what I could do, but not so overwhelming that I froze. I have never taken lessons with him(he does not refuse to do them but sort of frowns upon it) but have learned as much about flying from him as I have from almost anyone else.

I was taken aback when I was speaking to a CFI from another school at my field who does not use him for their checkrides...evidently too many of their students had a problem dealing with his personality, and how "tough" his tests were.
 
Yeah. MAKG I have no clue what you're thinking but if you think poor manners will have no affect on a CR outcome, you're pretty darn mistaken...

As to the OP, I went through a few different instructors and there were things I liked AND disliked about all of them. If you're really having issues, find a new one.
 
ki4lzk said:
I just soloed last week with 20 hours. I really did not start landing decently until about the 16 hour mark. My instructor wanted all the landings to be greasers. I finally had to tell him that the only way I was going to learn to land is by landing. I told him that it was either my airplane or his, not both. This may have been slightly aggressive on my part, but the next lesson my landings got better.
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Good for you, you identified the problem and got it fixed. By the way, Congratulations on your solo!!
 
douglas393 said:
...evidently too many of their students had a problem dealing with his personality, and how "tough" his tests were.
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The real world of flying can provide some pretty tough "tests" as well. And the "toughest" DPEs I've come across still want their candidates to pass but they also want them to be safe once they're allowed to carry "innocent" passengers.
 
gismo said:
The real world of flying can provide some pretty tough "tests" as well. And the "toughest" DPEs I've come across still want their candidates to pass but they also want them to be safe once they're allowed to carry "innocent" passengers.
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The funny thing is I did not find him tough. I found he tests to be comprehensive, and tested my knowledge and abilities completely. Then again he did not test me on trivia, but he would throw curve balls and sliders to tes me how I thought. Never once however did I find him to be trying to fail me, but I actually felt he truly was interested in wanting me to pass. I may be wrong but it seems to me when I hear about why people have failed checkrides it is more that they failed to do what they know how to do and were taught to do, then they failed because they truly had no clue what to do or did something truly stupid(like the guy at my home port that failed the test because he hit the parked fuel truck on the taxi back to the ramp), and I think that says something truly positive about the way GA flight training is done.
 
gismo said:
The real world of flying can provide some pretty tough "tests" as well. And the "toughest" DPEs I've come across still want their candidates to pass but they also want them to be safe once they're allowed to carry "innocent" passengers.
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This is so true.

The other day my DPE told me he'd ride in the backseat of my airplane. I said "Why would you want to do that? You have 20,000 hours.. I have 200..." he goes "Because I gave you both your tickets. (PPL and IFR) I trust you enough to fly with you, or else I wouldn't have given them to you"

Best compliment ever from a tough DPE? Yes.
 
Z06_Mir said:
This is so true.

The other day my DPE told me he'd ride in the backseat of my airplane. I said "Why would you want to do that? You have 20,000 hours.. I have 200..." he goes "Because I gave you both your tickets. (PPL and IFR) I trust you enough to fly with you, or else I wouldn't have given them to you"

Best compliment ever from a tough DPE? Yes.
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Betty Faux gave me a couple of my rides and was one of the most experienced pilots I ever met (When QBs, Quiet Birdmen, give a woman real respect as a pilot, you know she is **** hot). She was a WWII WASP and had a log book full of planes most of us would kill to fly.

I asked he what criteria she used and she said, "If I feel safe putting my daughter in a plane with you, you pass." I thought that was a pretty honest and fair criteria.
 
Z06_Mir said:
This is so true.

The other day my DPE told me he'd ride in the backseat of my airplane. I said "Why would you want to do that? You have 20,000 hours.. I have 200..." he goes "Because I gave you both your tickets. (PPL and IFR) I trust you enough to fly with you, or else I wouldn't have given them to you"

Best compliment ever from a tough DPE? Yes.
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That is indeed a fantastic compliment! I bet that one felt good, huh?

I've had my share of tough examiners and while the exam was quite miserable, it did feel good to know that I earned it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
This is so true.

The other day my DPE told me he'd ride in the backseat of my airplane. I said "Why would you want to do that? You have 20,000 hours.. I have 200..." he goes "Because I gave you both your tickets. (PPL and IFR) I trust you enough to fly with you, or else I wouldn't have given them to you"

Best compliment ever from a tough DPE? Yes.
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Those are gratifying. The DPE for my instrument rating complimented me after the ride, then approached me a few days later and asked if I'd like to fly co-pilot in the Cessna 414 Chancellor he flew for a local corporation. Turned out to be a great gig!
 
Henning said:
I asked he what criteria she used and she said, "If I feel safe putting my daughter in a plane with you, you pass." I thought that was a pretty honest and fair criteria.
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Are you sure she was only evaluating piloting skills?!?! :rofl:
 
I understand your frustrations as I have shared many of them. I am a 31 year old student pilot that start training last year. I am based out of a Maryland airport in the SFRA.

First, I wouldn't put too much stock in the numbers of hours. You'll probably find a lot of folks that want to brag about soloing at x hours and getting their license with only the bare minimum required. Last I checked, the FAA didn't give out bonuses for low hour achievements.

That being said, you do want to at least see improvement as you progress, even if its incremental. If the improvement isn't there, then I would strongly consider another instructor.

It took me a long time to get my landings down and if I go a couple of weeks without flying I still need one or two to get them back up to par. For me, I was over thinking the landings. When I switched to start tricking myself into thinking that I would just overfly the run at final approach speed, I found my landings to greatly improve.

Second, I think it is perfectly reasonable to have self doubt. That demonstrates how seriously you are taking your learning. This is a lot of information to process and learn and if it was easy, everyone would be a pilot. Don't let the self doubt consume you though. Think about all the things you've learned since your discovery flight and the progress you've made. The road is long but don't discount the strides you've made.

We're in the same area so if you want to send me a message, I'd be happy to grab a beer or coffee and talk training.
 
Gmanattack said:
I understand your frustrations as I have shared many of them. I am a 31 year old student pilot that start training last year. I am based out of a Maryland airport in the SFRA.

First, I wouldn't put too much stock in the numbers of hours. You'll probably find a lot of folks that want to brag about soloing at x hours and getting their license with only the bare minimum required. Last I checked, the FAA didn't give out bonuses for low hour achievements.

That being said, you do want to at least see improvement as you progress, even if its incremental. If the improvement isn't there, then I would strongly consider another instructor.

It took me a long time to get my landings down and if I go a couple of weeks without flying I still need one or two to get them back up to par. For me, I was over thinking the landings. When I switched to start tricking myself into thinking that I would just overfly the run at final approach speed, I found my landings to greatly improve.

Second, I think it is perfectly reasonable to have self doubt. That demonstrates how seriously you are taking your learning. This is a lot of information to process and learn and if it was easy, everyone would be a pilot. Don't let the self doubt consume you though. Think about all the things you've learned since your discovery flight and the progress you've made. The road is long but don't discount the strides you've made.

We're in the same area so if you want to send me a message, I'd be happy to grab a beer or coffee and talk training.
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Thanks for the thorough reply Gmanattack. I will try your method and overfly the runway and see how it goes :) I totally agree with you regarding the number of hours and I do not see any achievement in fininshing with the minimum required since it is all circumstantial and in my case I am learning to fly just for fun.
I would also be happy to grab a drink and talk training,I am out of town right now. as soon as I am back I will send you a message and coordinate:).

Thanks again
 
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Z06_Mir said:
In order to get an ATP certificate one must be of "Good moral character" 61.153(c)

Honestly, having a poor attitude will get you no where in life. You get pulled over and you argue with the cop, you're getting a ticket. If you sit there respectfully and talk with the cop you may get off easier. Trying to challenge people of authority with your poor attitude rarely works. I'm not saying people of authority are always correct, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about disagreements.

My DPE is an interesting person. I enjoy talking with him outside of examinations (after all, I've taken several lessons with him too) and he's a great guy and an outstanding pilot (how many other guys dodged a head-on midair then flew an airplane with half a wing missing to the ground?) but his examinations are difficult. He takes information that an applicant doesn't know personally because he's the chief CFI and in charge of standardization throughout the school. I heard my fair share of "Damnit Miranda!" during my exam, most relatively small things that clearly weren't enough to bust me. It's never bothered me the way he acts, I'm used to it. But I know some applicants who didn't fly with him as much as I did (about 4 hours each for my PPL and my IR) and were very taken aback by his style. I think that taking the time to know a DPE before you test with him, or even on the day of the test getting in some "normal" conversation, will make all the difference in how you feel towards him or her.
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This reminds me of my checkrides. The DPE was also the chief CFI of the school. Cool guy I really liked him. I remember in my checkrides him shouting and being all tough and then after taxiing back to parking and shutting down he would said "nice job dude you passed, congrats" and be all nice again. great guy and his most memorable phrase was "watch your airspeed, watch your airspeed, watch your airspeed, WATCH YOUR AIRSPEED":yes::yes:
 
When you start out learning to fly, it's hard to spot the range in quality between instructors (and, generally, there's little differentiation in price). CFIs all have to start somewhere, but there's simply no way a wet behind the ears instructor will be as good as someone with experience. Even among the ones with experience, the range in quality is tremendous.

So while I have sympathy for the guy you're working with, if we look at it from the standpoint of utility to YOU, you should get a new instructor. Life is cruel and unfair... he still has to pay his dues, accumulate experience, etc. You might as well go to the guy who knows what he's doing, and may well need the money!

That is, if you can find him/her. It's only after you finish your training that you begin to get a sense of who's good and who's not.
 
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