A first: raising gear on final approach

Martymccasland

Pre-takeoff checklist
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M.McCasland
Wind was only 10-15 knots on the ground but really howling just 2-3k off the ground. Lots of rain and bumps. The field was reporting 2 miles / 300 OVC.

We're being vectored to final on an ILS. I look at the MFD and it's saying 70-75 knots of wind. ??? "Can't be", I think -- we only saw 55-60 max at altitude and the ATIS is reporting 10-15. Then, on one of the vectors, I look down and see 61 knots ground speed with 138 knots true at only 3000'. We get vectored some more (only 2 of the runways have approaches to 300' and 1 runway was closed for resurfacing). We turn again and I'm doing 203 knots GS with only 19-20" of MP and the prop back to 2300 (Bonanza).

We finally get vectored around to final, are cleared for the approach, and I drop the gear so as to keep losing about 1000' before the FAF without speeding too far over Va (140) in what had been a little bumpy air into the terminal area. At this point, lined up on final, I look to the GPS and it says I'm 14:42 mins to the runway! On final! I do a double-take, "can't be". I look back at the MFD and I'm doing 54 knots GS at 130 true! The approach is stabilized and the bumps have gone, so I bring the gear back up to get my speed up to shorten the time to the field -- and FINAL still took 7 minutes with ever increasing GS as we descended into less wind. We get get to 1000 AGL and I put the gear back down. We break out at 300 AGL just as advertised and it's just totally fine, not even that gusty, 10-15 knots. Surprising too, no wind-sheer felt or reported.

A first for me. Have never experienced that much wind on final right on the nose (got close at Chicago once, though). Have never had to raise gear to keep from nearly hovering on the glideslope. And have never had that much greatly varying degrees of wind in a small vertical area without turbulence or sheer...

'Thought I'd share and hear similar stories.
 
What time? I was picking my grandmother up from the ER around 10:30. I about got flooded out on 630 with that last rain band.

Small world. Around 5pm. Water standing everywhere.
 
Small world. Around 5pm. Water standing everywhere.

I was at the house stacking wood with the pouring rain. I congrat you on landing in that. :D I'm surprise at that amount of wind. It was about dead calm outside. Just a heavy rain.

I have flown the ILS 5 in KHOT with a 45-50* crab. Landing was not even remotely attempted.

However, I haven't yet needed to put the gear up to push me along. I've flown backwards and with a 20kt GS before though.
 
Found your flight on FlightAware.

What's up with the vector that sent you off into the boonies? They vector you around some inbound traffic?
 
I was at the house stacking wood with the pouring rain. I congrat you on landing in that. :D I'm surprise at that amount of wind. It was about dead calm outside. Just a heavy rain.

I have flown the ILS 5 in KHOT with a 45-50* crab. Landing was not even remotely attempted.

However, I haven't yet needed to put the gear up to push me along. I've flown backwards and with a 20kt GS before though.

It truly was totally benign, smooth, easy, a walk in the park. The only strange thing was the groundspeed.

I even looked at the iPad to cross-check the approach GPS speeds I'm seeing, thinking something is wrong.

I did hear one slightly disconcerting thing on the radio, not related to Wx. An airline in front of me was being vectored to the ILS, then asked approach what the minimums were for the approach. ?!??! Flying without plates in a 121 operation?!?!
 
Found your flight on FlightAware.

What's up with the vector that sent you off into the boonies? They vector you around some inbound traffic?

Yes. 7-8 vectors, strange at that. Wasn't terribly busy, but I'm guessing the wind was really screwing with groundspeeds and messing up sequencing. i.e. Someone from the south is showing up way fast, it taking forever for arrivals from the North... 2 of my PAXs were pilots and we're all thinking it's a weird way to be brought in..
 
It truly was totally benign, smooth, easy, a walk in the park. The only strange thing was the groundspeed.

I even looked at the iPad to cross-check the approach GPS speeds I'm seeing, thinking something is wrong.

I did hear one slightly disconcerting thing on the radio, not related to Wx. An airline in front of me was being vectored to the ILS, then asked approach what the minimums were for the approach. ?!??! Flying without plates in a 121 operation?!?!

A few weeks ago a 121 guy kept going back and forth on what his company RVR mins were. I kept APP and TWR on my comm to listen to what finally went down. At one point the guy wanted to land on 36. Adams TWR went "uhhhhh we don't recommend that". I wanted to make sure I wouldn't need to make a statement after the guy ran off the runway. :no:
 
Yes. 7-8 vectors, strange at that. Wasn't terribly busy, but I'm guessing the wind was really screwing with groundspeeds and messing up sequencing. i.e. Someone from the south is showing up way fast, it taking forever for arrivals from the North... 2 of my PAXs were pilots and we're all thinking it's a weird way to be brought in..

He should have kept you northeast of the base and slid you in on a LONG leg to FAF.

I've been cleared for the ILS 4R/4L over Malvern (40nm out for the non locals). I've been cleared to land while still over western Pulaski. Sometimes I think they don't know whats going on. Then I remember they are trainees.

Remember I'm often only doing 80-90GS. So I'm still 20 mins out at a minimum.
 
A 30 knot wind shift from FAF to TDZE can wreak havoc on the vector controller. It's not unheard of to have to run a 5 or 6 mile final (5-6 NM spacing between successive arrivals) in order to have the required 3 NM at touchdown.
 
Funny you posted this. That weather is passing through us now. I just looked at my 69nm trip I had planned and 5kts out of the south on the ground, 62kts at 3500. And a headwind. :)
 
A 30 knot wind shift from FAF to TDZE can wreak havoc on the vector controller. It's not unheard of to have to run a 5 or 6 mile final (5-6 NM spacing between successive arrivals) in order to have the required 3 NM at touchdown.

I think that what was going on. I was going to be 1st for ILS but an airliner was coming in. He was up higher, where ironically there was less wind, plus his extra 40-50 knots on me. I'm stuck in the crazy wind. ATC see's it isn't going to work (even though it probably would have after the airliner hit the wind and slowed). They vector us through the localizer, then the airliner gets in the "tunnel of wind" and slows way down (probably blowing up the ETAs/separation estimates on the scope, I'm guessing). So now we get turned and turned and turned while the airliner eases down the ILS at groundspeeds as low as 80-90 knots.... 'Glad it wasn't very busy or it could have really gotten protracted.

Controller may have thought too I was intentionally going extremely slow as they told me once "you can resume normal speed"... Even after that with gear up, engine/prop revved up, and coming down the glideslope, I'm barely touching 100 knots groundspeed despite doing 160+ TAS.

This little FlightAware speed graph captures it pretty well:
http://d.pr/i/oCvA

Interestingly, I can see on this graph the gear coming up (right after I bottom at at 50 knots GS), but don't see them coming back down -- looks like a stead 90-100 knots groundspeed all the way in even though my TAS changes radically from FAF to TDZE as I bring off power, drop gear, etc... Doubt I see something like that again for many moons.
 
I did hear one slightly disconcerting thing on the radio, not related to Wx. An airline in front of me was being vectored to the ILS, then asked approach what the minimums were for the approach. ?!??! Flying without plates in a 121 operation?!?!

The 121 guy has different minimums depending upon the operation. More than likely he was asking for RVR reports because the approach was below Cat 1 minimums.
 
Funny you posted this. That weather is passing through us now. I just looked at my 69nm trip I had planned and 5kts out of the south on the ground, 62kts at 3500. And a headwind. :)

If you go and the weather is the same, it'll be a day to remember. Very little turbulence other than the occasional bump. Very little ground wind (I pulled up the actual METAR at landing and it was only 8 knots of wind). It was just a horizontal tunnel of wind around 1000-4000' just howling -- like a mini jet stream.
 
The 121 guy has different minimums depending upon the operation. More than likely he was asking for RVR reports because the approach was below Cat 1 minimums.

Maybe so and I just didn't catch the RVR, but I heard:

"Approach, XXXXX, what's the minimums for this approach"

Approach responds, "509 [MSL]" (just what the plates show)

The airliner responds, "thanks" -- and I don't hear any more discussion (but clearly could have missed something as the groundspeed has me cross-checking everything / busy).
 
Maybe so and I just didn't catch the RVR, but I heard:

"Approach, XXXXX, what's the minimums for this approach"

Approach responds, "509 [MSL]" (just what the plates show)

The airliner responds, "thanks" -- and I don't hear any more discussion (but clearly could have missed something as the groundspeed has me cross-checking everything / busy).

Minimums are sometimes as well dependent upon Cat A, B, C or D (most transport jets are C).

Also for the 121 he's more interested in RVR than ceiling since RVR controls the approach.

It also may have been someone went miss ahead of him and he was just verifying ceiling.
 
Minimums are sometimes as well dependent upon Cat A, B, C or D (most transport jets are C).

Also for the 121 he's more interested in RVR than ceiling since RVR controls the approach.

It also may have been someone went miss ahead of him and he was just verifying ceiling.

Maybe that was it... I sure don't profess to have even a clue about 121 operations.

FWIW, here's the plate we were all doing:
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1401/00233IL22L.PDF
 
Interestingly said:
My guess is at some point you came through the "wind front" and were impacted by the prevailing surface winds. I had a similar experience once when flying VFR into an airport. My Aspen was reporting 35 knots at the TPA but the surface winds were calm. Interestingly there was no shear or turbulence felt through the transition. The only noticeable indication was the amount of crab becoming less then nothing.
 
Funny you posted this. That weather is passing through us now. I just looked at my 69nm trip I had planned and 5kts out of the south on the ground, 62kts at 3500. And a headwind. :)

Never hurts to look at NOAA-AWC winds aloft page.
 
Never hurts to look at NOAA-AWC winds aloft page.

Funny thing is, while enroute I'm looking at the XM winds aloft products (which, I assume, is ultimately sourced from the NOAA data)... The biggest winds I saw anywhere from the surface up to 6000 is 30 knots of wind during our flight. Certainly nothing like what we experienced. But that's too much off what I've seen historically -- the XM winds aloft (and NOAA AWC?) speeds seem to regularly be way off and only really useful in a very big picture sort of way -- i.e. will winds be stronger/weaker 3,6,9k higher/lower, will the wind continue to be push/headwind over the route, etc.... Just my experience, YMMV

http://aviationweather.gov/products/nws/info
 
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