A few little IFR questions

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mcmanigle

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John McManigle
Hi all, I've finally finished the IFR checkride. (The ride itself was a non-issue compared to getting it scheduled!) Now that I'm legal to set off on IFR adventures, there are a couple of little practical questions I have for the collective PoA wisdom...

1. I believe there is an exception that allows -- for flight training purposes -- filing IFR in VMC in an aircraft that is instrument equipped but not certified for IFR/IMC (eg DA-20 with full panel). My question is, would that exception apply to a solo IFR-rated pilot just wanting to practice being "in the system" on a CAVU day? Is that "training"?

2. As a renter, what is my best way to get "expected" clearances? I'm under the impression that the FlightAware method involves putting an e-mail alert on your airplane, but I'd rather not do that for every plane I rent... Is there a way to just look up expected routing on a single upcoming IFR flight? Bonus points if it's easy to do from an iOS device...

3. Of course my instructors trained me and there are plenty of ASI/NASA/whatnot resources on making no-go decisions based on icing, convection, etc. in the immediate preflight planning period, but what are your favorite ways to get a rough idea of whether a flight will be possible 3-4 days in advance?
 
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1. You can do the training in it, but you can not fly under IFR in it. You can flile and fly on CAVU day - people do it all the time. But you may not fly "under the hood" solo, or log any similuated instrument time under those conditions without (at least) a qualified safety pilot

2. Not exactly sure what you are asking. But after you are in the system you can usually log back into FA and see what routing they gave you.

3. With the giant ice/cloud maker known as Lake Michigan to the west of me, I don't even bother looking 3-4 days in advance.
 
for #2, two ways spring to mind:
a) you could simply look up the tail number or airport on flightaware (via the app or their web site) without signing up for an email alert. You can see the expected route on the site.

b) if you file via DUATs on the web, I believe there is an option to receive an email alert when the flight plan is processed for just that flight.

3. GFS MOS from the NWS. http://www.nws.noaa.gov/mdl/synop/products.php
 
The guidance specifically says "instrument training" which specifically requires a flight instructor (61.1). You can do it after you get your rating, but it still has to be with an instructor. Flying solo IFR is not permitted in aircraft restricted from flying IFR. You can always ask for practice approaches VFR. I supposed you can also ask at class B airports to give you a VFR departure in the same fashion as they would give you an IFR departure (after you tell them why).

Many people swear by fltplan.com. It's not a guarantee that's what you're going to get, but it works most times. Sometimes you can put what appears to be a perfectly reasonable request in and the system accepts it and fltplan will even parrot it back as filed but ATC will say "well that's not going to work, got your pencil ready?"

I'm not sure I'd get worked up on expected routes. People seem to have some slavish reliance on them. Just file what you think you can work. Call for your clearance and spend whatever time it takes to get it planned out. Except at places where you're stuck getting a void time (where you'd just ask for a sufficiently long one), you can have all the time you want before you call in ready for departure.

Can tell you my instrument cross country during training got a different route while getting the initial clearance and then as soon as I raised departure in the air they gave me a reroute. I was carefully writing it down when I realized "Hey! this is what I filed for originally."

There's some NOAA site on predictive NEXRAD that's pretty cool, but frankly more than 4 days out I just tend to use the weather.com/accuweather long ranges to guess temps and precip with a healthy deal of skepticism.
 
flyingron said:
The guidance specifically says "instrument training" which specifically requires a flight instructor (61.1).
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Is there a link to that guidance? I'm not challenging what you're saying; I just want to be able to cite the source.
 
You can always file IFR while vmc ,you just can't fly actual if the plane is not IFR certified . Great way to start tu understand the system. I use Foreflight to file ,but own my own airplane. When I used my cell phone they also had the aircraft info linked to the phone number. Good practice is to file direct and let atc give you a route.
 
frfly172 said:
You can always file IFR while vmc ,you just can't fly actual if the plane is not IFR certified . Great way to start tu understand the system. I use Foreflight to file ,but own my own airplane. When I used my cell phone they also had the aircraft info linked to the phone number. Good practice is to file direct and let atc give you a route.
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Not legally. You can not accept an IFR clearance if your plane is not approved for IFR, except with the mentioned training exemption. If the FAA catches you flying your DA20 on an IFR clearance, it would behoove you to have a CFI-I aboard (the rules specifically say INSTRUMENT Instruction).
 
flyingron said:
Not legally. You can not accept an IFR clearance if your plane is not approved for IFR, except with the mentioned training exemption. If the FAA catches you flying your DA20 on an IFR clearance, it would behoove you to have a CFI-I aboard (the rules specifically say INSTRUMENT Instruction).
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I'm not seeing that exception in 91.
 
mcmanigle said:
1. I believe there is an exception that allows -- for flight training purposes -- filing IFR in VMC in an aircraft that is instrument equipped but not certified for IFR/IMC (eg DA-20 with full panel). My question is, would that exception apply to a solo IFR-rated pilot just wanting to practice being "in the system" on a CAVU day? Is that "training"?
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Not for this purpose. This exception applies only to training with an instructor or for practical tests. FAA Order 8900.1 covers this.
5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

B. Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.

1) Section 91.9(a) prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.

2) Section 91.9(b) prohibits operation of a U.S.‑registered aircraft requiring an airplane or rotorcraft flight manual unless it has on board a current and approved airplane or rotorcraft flight manual or approved manual material, markings, and placards containing each operating limitation prescribed for that aircraft.
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3. Of course my instructors trained me and there are plenty of ASI/NASA/whatnot resources on making no-go decisions based on icing, convection, etc. in the immediate preflight planning period, but what are your favorite ways to get a rough idea of whether a flight will be possible 3-4 days in advance?
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I use the GFS MAV MOS Graphics, which provide forecasts of ceiling, visibility, and precipitation out that far.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/mdl/forecast/graphics/MAV/index.html
 
frfly172 said:
You can always file IFR while vmc ,you just can't fly actual if the plane is not IFR certified .
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Not true. Operating on an IFR clearance other than within the very limited exception for training and testing discussed above is prohibited unless the aircraft is actually approved for IFR operations no matter what the weather (good, bad, or indifferent).
 
frfly172 said:
You can always file IFR while vmc ,you just can't fly actual if the plane is not IFR certified . Great way to start tu understand the system. I use Foreflight to file ,but own my own airplane. When I used my cell phone they also had the aircraft info linked to the phone number. Good practice is to file direct and let atc give you a route.
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The whole IFR system is based on separation of aircraft. A fundamental of that separation is the aircraft being IFR certified so that if Plane A is showing, say, 8000 feet pressure altitude via the encoder, it is truly where it says it is. To the controllers, everyone might as well be IMC since the controllers can't visually see anyone -- but are simply putting planes where they won't hit other planes. So filing IFR but only flying VMC is a distinction without a difference in this situation -- and most certainly is not allowed. And could be deadly if a plane not IFR certificated files and is later found to be way off, too far off to meet IFR certification.
 
1. if you plane is not IFR certified, you can not use to accept an IFR clearance it even if on a CAVU day.
2. the two things that i look at before planning a trip: is there a TEC route. these are routes that you will be almost certaintly given if there is one found between your departure airport and your destination (or local surrounding airports). you can find a list of TEC routes in the back AFD. another thing i do is look at fltplan.com and they give you the last 5 clearance routes given by ATC from your airport to your destination and i'll usually plan the routes given or similar routes. if you don't get what you filed, its not a big deal. just ask for a re route and approach willl likely give it to you
3. to get a forecast i just look up on weather.com to get a VERY big picture of the weather will be like

also remember you can always do a SIMULATED IFR flight. you will still be vfr but you can follow all of the victor airways and intersections just remember to fly the right altitudes and pick vfr altitudes
 
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Martymccasland said:
The whole IFR system is based on separation of aircraft. A fundamental of that separation is the aircraft being IFR certified so that if Plane A is showing, say, 8000 feet pressure altitude via the encoder, it is truly where it says it is. To the controllers, everyone might as well be IMC since the controllers can't visually see anyone -- but are simply putting planes where they won't hit other planes. So filing IFR but only flying VMC is a distinction without a difference in this situation -- and most certainly is not allowed. And could be deadly if a plane not IFR certificated files and is later found to be way off, too far off to meet IFR certification.
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Let's say it is a flight from KVNY to KBFL. The weather is clear, vis 50 miles, and no clouds or ground fog with 500 miles. How could this (admittedly illegal) airplane be any more deadly then if he were simply emulating IFR on the same route, but VFR on no flight plan? Say further on his emulation of IFR flight he is talking to no one.
 
aterpster said:
Let's say it is a flight from KVNY to KBFL. The weather is clear, vis 50 miles, and no clouds or ground fog with 500 miles. How could this (admittedly illegal) airplane be any more deadly then if he were simply emulating IFR on the same route, but VFR on no flight plan? Say further on his emulation of IFR flight he is talking to no one.
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If the pilot is "simply emulating" IFR, talking to no one, there's no problem. Other than (depending on how far they took this IFR emulation) of not adhering to even/odd altitudes + 500, I can't see a problem so long as it's VMC and they're below Class A.

However, I understood the previous posts to say a solo IR pilot in a non-IFR certified airplane could file IFR plans, open them, and all is well so long as they stay VMC -- i.e. actually performing IFR flights, not emulating it. On that front, I stand-by my assertion doing so could prove deadly if a non-IFR-certified aircraft is improperly encoding pressure altitude and showing up on controllers scopes incorrectly -- regardless of the weather conditions.

If I have misunderstood the points being made and to which I was responding, my apologies.
 
jordane93 said:
1. if you plane is not IFR certified, you can not use to accept an IFR clearance it even if on a CAVU day.
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...except as authorized in the section from FAA Order 8900.1 for training and testing quoted above, with the restrictions noted therein.
 
aterpster said:
Let's say it is a flight from KVNY to KBFL. The weather is clear, vis 50 miles, and no clouds or ground fog with 500 miles. How could this (admittedly illegal) airplane be any more deadly then if he were simply emulating IFR on the same route, but VFR on no flight plan? Say further on his emulation of IFR flight he is talking to no one.
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I'm not going to argue safety here, just legality. Pretending to be IFR while following all VFR rules without obtaining an IFR clearance is legal. Accepting an IFR clearance in an aircraft not approved for IFR operations (other than as described in the training/testing exception from FAA Order 8900.1) is not legal, regardless of flight conditions. Anything else is just philosophy, not FAA rules.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not going to argue safety here, just legality. Pretending to be IFR while following all VFR rules without obtaining an IFR clearance is legal. Accepting an IFR clearance in an aircraft not approved for IFR operations (other than as described in the training/testing exception from FAA Order 8900.1) is not legal, regardless of flight conditions. Anything else is just philosophy, not FAA rules.
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That's why I included (admittedly illegal).

But, had our rouge pilot filed IFR in a perfectly clear day I think he would be less of a hazard than following airways in busy airspace but talking to no one.
 
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