A different subject of ODPs

[bob_albertson]

I thought I would post about a slightly different subject of ODP's then what most of us are used to. I was kind of curious if any of you all out there flying twins capable of SE climb performance give similar thought or if your company uses similar ODPs.

Single Engine ODPs were completely new to me at the time I first saw their pink page in our Jepp binder. Since then, I've chatted with Mr Wally (Dr. Terps) about them, but beyond what he taught me about them there really doesn't seem to be much in the way of easily obtained literature. Obviously, they are made for specific aircraft either by a commercial engineering company or in house. They are used at airports where the ODP has a climb gradient that exceeds the aircraft's ability to maintain that on a single engine.

Some of the things that need to be taken into consideration are when to fly the SE ODP (or OEI if that may be pertinent). I initially thought that if one was published for an airport (they are rwy specific like you would expect) that it should be flown even when all engines are operating. Well, after finding that wasn't the case, I wondered if there may ever be a location where the SE (or OEI) DP course and route was significantly different from the normal ODP. The rational person inside me made me realize that couldn't be since there would be no safety buffer afforded in those situations.

One of my reasons for wanting to post about this here as opposed to just asking Mr. Wally about it was to see if anyone knew of a website (credible) that has information about these type of procedures. What are their design criteria (understanding that may be type specific in many aspects), and what kind of safety buffer is offered. For example, should an engine fail and your climb gradient is suddenly much below that required by the ODP and a course change is require for the SE ODP how much altitude buffer do you have.

I sort of remember reading about one SE ODP that was an exception in that you had to fly it even with all engines operating due to the fact that you had a similar route to fly to reach a VOR, but then you had to climb in a hold over a VOR before you could depart either back to your departure airport of the drift down airport listed on the release.

I sure have learned a lot from the experienced members here. Hoping to share another side to flying a multi and get some more advice and information.

Thanks!
Bob

P.S. Mr. Wally, you do so much for so many people and I have bugged you enough lately

 

[aterpster]

I thought I would post about a slightly different subject of ODP's then what most of us are used to. I was kind of curious if any of you all out there flying twins capable of SE climb performance give similar thought or if your company uses similar ODPs.

I don't think you are going to get any takers.:wink2:

First, you mention pink pages so those are proprietary to your carrier. Second, such procedures are mandated only for Part 121 and 135 operators (91.175(f) and in particular 91.175(f)(4)(i) )

The carriers' engineering folks typically use AC 120-91 to design OEI procedures when the public ODP or SID won't permit compliance with the OEI takeoff flight path profile.

You won't find a website with any of these procedures.

There are still a lot of unresolved issues with all of this at busy, obstacle-laden airports such as LAS and SLC. At small, low-traffic airports (generally served by commuter carriers) the options are much more straight forward.

 

[bob_albertson]

I don't think you are going to get any takers.:wink2:

First, you mention pink pages so those are proprietary to your carrier. Second, such procedures are mandated only for Part 121 and 135 operators (91.175(f) and in particular 91.175(f)(4)(i) )

The carriers' engineering folks typically use AC 120-91 to design OEI procedures when the public ODP or SID won't permit compliance with the OEI takeoff flight path profile.

You won't find a website with any of these procedures.

There are still a lot of unresolved issues with all of this at busy, obstacle-laden airports such as LAS and SLC. At small, low-traffic airports (generally served by commuter carriers) the options are much more straight forward.

Hey, look above my post, here, is a taker

I had thought there were more of the good 135 pilots and 121 pilots over here. I see that definitely is true, but I understand the silence. When I talk in the crew room about something important like this -- I usually get the retort -- "Do you actually do anything in your free time or do you just read all of that *hit" . I guess there is less interest in these sort of things then I would have guessed .

Thank you for the references, I printed out the A/C and I'm about to get started reading it. I wasn't sure if the pink pages were completely proprietary since our performance stuff is done by APG, Inc. It make sense.

Oh, Mr. Wally, you would like this type of thing. We are just about ready to get a PDA for each of our planes. They are being approved by the FAA right now with revision 5 of our CFM. They will do our weight and balance and ACARS. The planes are being installed with an antenna that NOAA owns. Part of the deal is that we asked to use some of the data transfer information for company business. They agreed. So, we will plug in our PDA to the plane - get DATIS, PDC, and it will report all of our OUT/OFF/ON/IN times. NOAA is using the antenna and aircraft systems to get information about the mid-level atmosphere. Moisture content, temperature, and other parameters. They are working with other companies to get a similar antenna installed on their planes too. It apparently is going to aid in more accurate SKEW-T Logs and also Severe Weather Forecasting. For us, it means we will be getting our FMS's installed in a few more months down the road (gotta be FAA approved again), but in the next month or so we will have these tablet sized PDA's that will do so much for us.... Oh, yeah we can talk to dispatch while airborne via txt messages just like ACARS and we will be able to send/receive our releases (send w/ CA digital signature or pen/inked MEL/DMI/CDL changes, ACM, ect...). If you can't tell, I'm excited about it. It literally means we can make a turn inside of 10 minutes now. Captain plugs in W&B, it regurgitates our performance numbers from that and the DATIS information, release is sent off, door closes PB released and away our Out time goes. It's going to be great!

Bob

 

[aterpster]

I wasn't sure if the pink pages were completely proprietary since our performance stuff is done by APG, Inc. It make sense.

In this case APG is bound by its agreement with your company.

 

[dtuuri]

...I wondered if there may ever be a location where the SE (or OEI) DP course and route was significantly different from the normal ODP. The rational person inside me made me realize that couldn't be since there would be no safety buffer afforded in those situations.

Absolutely there are (were?). At SLC, when I flew for United in 1979/80, we had a rather long-winded special procedure compared to the normal published SID. The rub is, everything presumes an engine failure at V1, so if one fails after that you have no analysts around to ask, "Now what?" You need to use your own head instead.

I remember sitting there one morning, as a new-hire engineer, waiting for a C-172 to seed the fog, so we could make takeoff minimums. Then turning off the air-conditioning packs, so we could make the toned-down special departure gradient, thinking, "I gave up flying Learjets for this?"

dtuuri