911 no help for choking woman

According to a letter Montanino wrote about the incident, lead communications officer Maureen Thomas said, "I am not getting on."
Thomas' written response: "I do not remember being asked to do (emergency medical dispatch) or saying that I would not get on the phone."
But several co-workers distinctly remember Cook, the dispatch supervisor, declining to help because he didn't want to deal with a "hysterical" caller.
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Geesh, letting someone die for a bureaucratic reason. how do people live with themselves when they do this stuff??



This is right by you Tom, how is it going over with the local press Bay News 9 et al??
 
I hate seeing stories like this. Completely indefensible. When that many people say they saw something happen, its probably true.

Cook should be tried for some form of murder.
 
Cold.
According to written accounts from several coworkers, Cook responded:
"She must have bitten off more than she can chew."
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I use a true story when I teach CPR. Where I work a few years ago a person collapsed in the hallway and was having a heart attack. Almost 20 people stood and watched him die while they debated who know CPR and was trained. One of my co-workers told me he was there and that he knew how to do CPR but he thought there might be someone who knew more and waited for them to step up.

What those 20 people did, including my co-worker was to help a person die. A person whose heart has stopped is dead, try to help them you cannot do any more harm to them. Even if you break their ribs and puncture a lung they are better off than dead. The good Samaritan laws will protect you, pump on their chest, don't give mouth to mouth and you are still doing something better than just watching.

Please everyone get CPR training which almost always includes chocking treatment and use it if you need it. Take the lead and don't be afraid to do it wrong, just do it to the best of your ability.
 
As a paramedic and membership comittee chair of our local Rescue Squad, one of the questions I always ask prospective candidates is: "Would you jeopardize your brand new EMT certificate to save someone's life?" In other words, would you exceed your scope and authorization of practice to save someone?
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, but it does give me great insight as to who this person really is. You can't fault someone for being "by the book" and you have to respect someone who is willing to break the rules to save someone's life.
I personally would find it hard to sleep at night if I didn't do all I could to help someone, regardless of what rules were broken. It reminds me an incident where a paramedic in Charlotte saved a woman by giving her a combination of medicine not on the formulary. She lived and he was fired. You just do what you have to do to get the job done.
 
Then, before officials concluded their investigation last week, Cook, 58, announced he would take an early retirement
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... Is there no way they could strip him of his retirement for this mess?
 
wbarnhill said:
... Is there no way they could strip him of his retirement for this mess?
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Don't see how at this point. There would likely need to be criminal charges filed and then he would have to have been found guilty. What may likely happen is a civil suit with a large settlement to the estate of the victim for negligence. There was definitely a duty of care that the 9//;1 center did not provide. The reasons for that failure will determine the liability.
 
911 can be a god send, but there are stories like this that gives a black eye to all the good that is done. I predict a civil trial with a large settlement.
 
I heard this story on Boortz. Cook has earned a seat at the defense table in civil court. I hope he gets it.
 
Lot of cynicism in that line of work. Shame. This guy outlived his usefulness there long ago IMHO and should have been encouraged to find something else to do.
 
smigaldi said:
Geesh, letting someone die for a bureaucratic reason. how do people live with themselves when they do this stuff??



This is right by you Tom, how is it going over with the local press Bay News 9 et al??
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Kinda died down today. Yesterday it was everywhere and they had 911 people on tv telling the public "don't stop calling 911 in an emergency! we'll try and help ya!". And they had healthcare people on tv showing how to do the heimlich. It was mostly just a day of outrage over the indifference this supervisor showed. But nobody talking about a criminal prosecution or civil suit. I'm sure somebodys looking into it and they should. Just a really sad sitch and it puts a knot in my stomach everytime i hear the playback of the call. I finally just had to turn channels. The boyfriend is literally sobbing into the phone begging for help and the guy who can offer it simply doesn't care. :mad: :( tc
 
These stories pop up every few years. IMHO what this guy is accused of is a crime!
 
"Montanino, who is not yet certified in emergency medical dispatch, was not qualified to talk him through it."

And here, my friends, is where the center just set themselves up to lose that lawsuit. I don't know of ANY 911 center that would have an unqualified dispatcher answer 911 calls. It just isn't done. What good is it to have someone like that answer 911 calls when she CANNOT HELP THEM.

We just had two 'newbies' graduate from our in house dispatch academy. Before they are even put on the floor to answer business lines, they are sent to a four day long EMD class. That way, if we get swamped, at least they can help.

"Could we have made a difference? We will probably never know."

Bullpuckey. YOU COULD HAVE. I've been doing this job for 12 freaking years, and that is one **** poor attitude. 14 times I have done telephonic CPR and 14 times I have failed. Sometimes the victims are already too far gone, sometimes the elderly wife/husband isn't strong enough to do it properly. Sometimes people are just to freaked out. Not everyone is going to make it. Does that mean I should just not even bother? HELL NO. Even when I know the victim IS dead, I still ask (I did this morning for a 95 year old woman who was obviously gone). I've even yelled at people to get off their butts and try. Dammit, this just ****es me off. Makes me look bad.
 
DeeG said:
Bullpuckey. YOU COULD HAVE. I've been doing this job for 12 freaking years, and that is one **** poor attitude. 14 times I have done telephonic CPR and 14 times I have failed. Sometimes the victims are already too far gone, sometimes the elderly wife/husband isn't strong enough to do it properly.
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I don't have the stats handy but when I teach CPR I let my students know what the success rate is of reviving a person. It is not very good at all. Not zero but not even close to something like 50%. It does not surprise me that your rate is 0/14. I would also imagine that you had the extra classes that we teach to professionals on dealing with the aftermath of the rescue? I try to bring some of that into my classes to the general public without overloading them too much because we want them to try.
 
Well after reading the article it seems to me like the 911 guy snapped, everyone in the office knew he snapped, and after the fact, HE knew he snapped and is now trying to cover his arse instead of taking responsibility.

His early retirement is a clear attempt to prevent further action being taken, but even his coworkers are testifying against his actions in this case, so they hold him at least partly responsible for the womans death and IMO the state should as well. Willful negligence maybe? At the least, the man should lose his friggin pension.
 
Greebo said:
Well after reading the article it seems to me like the 911 guy snapped, everyone in the office knew he snapped, and after the fact, HE knew he snapped and is now trying to cover his arse instead of taking responsibility.

His early retirement is a clear attempt to prevent further action being taken, but even his coworkers are testifying against his actions in this case, so they hold him at least partly responsible for the womans death and IMO the state should as well. Willful negligence maybe? At the least, the man should lose his friggin pension.
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Agreed 100%.
 
While I certainly do not condone the supervisor's actions, I came across many EMS workers who were mentally exhausted and had lost their ability to use proper judgment.

Some people in EMS suffer from severe "burnout".
The reasons are many: chronic sleep deprivation, emotional stress, poor pay and bad working conditions, lack of respect from the medical community, abuse from patients and their families, etc.

This is a well know phenomenon, it has been described extensively in the professional litterature and is similar to "combat shock".

I guess that you cannot stay indefinitely on the front lines - the emotional toll is just too great.

I had to quit my job as a paramedic in order to keep my sanity.
I was one of the "thoughest" medics in my squad and, for a long time, I fooled myself thinking that I was immune to all the trauma I witnessed.

I know better now - once in a while, I still dream about some of the people I couldn't help - I often blame myself and cannot forget those calls.
 
smigaldi said:
It does not surprise me that your rate is 0/14.
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Its a bit depressing, but I understand why. I keep telling my fellow dispatchers I'm going to get a t-shirt that has the hooded figure of death with the words "Angel of Death" and hash marks for my failures.


smigaldi said:
I would also imagine that you had the extra classes that we teach to professionals on dealing with the aftermath of the rescue? I try to bring some of that into my classes to the general public without overloading them too much because we want them to try.
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No. We get closure sometimes from the EMS crews, they tell us what happened on scene. I read the obituary of the 4 month old I did tele-CPR to last week. Baby lived long enough to be flown to Seattle, but died two days later. That broke my heart.
The only time I've been to a one of them 'classes' was a PTSD kind of thing when my deputy was killed.
 
DeeG said:
Its a bit depressing, but I understand why. I keep telling my fellow dispatchers I'm going to get a t-shirt that has the hooded figure of death with the words "Angel of Death" and hash marks for my failures.
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Don't let it get you down...you aren't alone. I'm 0 for 7 in actual CPR as the first on the scene. Had one live for a couple of days once, but he eventually died. I had a fellow officer that received a life saving award once for doing CPR and bringing a guy back. A stabbing victim that was pretty much dead when she arrived. No pulse, no breaths. She started CPR and he was awake and talking when they put him in the ambulance. She got the life saving award two weeks later, and two days after that, he died of complications from surgery. Sometimes you just can't win.

On the up side, CPR saved my fathers life. EMS did CPR all the way to the hospital and they finally brought him back in the ER. He lived in good health for 15 years after that until a aneurysm got him in 2001. So I know it works, it's just a matter of timing and the grace of a higher power.
 
I've been a practicing medic since 2001 and an EMT for something like 11 years before that. In all that time my CPR (even with advanced airway management and code medications) only ever saved one person to hospital release, and only one other besides that who was revived somewhat but later died. Dirty little secret of emergency medicine. That being said if there is a small chance then you take it.
 
alaskaflyer said:
That being said if there is a small chance then you take it.
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That is why I come back to work everyday (well, almost everyday). I put up with the BS and backstabbing and politics because I truely love my job. God help us if we ever get video phones. :)
 
The whole thing with CPR is that you are either a) probably working on someone who had a heart attack so has blockage problems or b) been wounded and has their circulatory system compromised. Couple that with the tiny window that you get from when someones heart stops to when you revive them and the odds are pretty small that you will be successful in bringing the DEAD person back to life. But it is still a chance so you take it.

This case in question here, the person was alive, could have been given the Heimlich, and been fine. Even after they collapsed. If the airway was cleared CPR might have been successful if the heart had stopped because there would have been very little delay from the when the person went down to when compressions started.

CPR is really the chance you take until advanced rescue can come and shock the heart and give the drugs to help the person. Without CPR the dead person will just stay dead.
 
ausrere said:
So I know it works, it's just a matter of timing and the grace of a higher power.
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My brother saved a guy with CPR once. He was driving along when a lady ran out in the street in front of him screaming for help. Her husband had just collapsed in the driveway. My brother (the Eagle Scout) performed CPR 'til the paramedics arrived, and the guy lived. Pretty cool.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I've been a practicing medic since 2001 and an EMT for something like 11 years before that. In all that time my CPR (even with advanced airway management and code medications) only ever saved one person to hospital release, and only one other besides that who was revived somewhat but later died. Dirty little secret of emergency medicine. That being said if there is a small chance then you take it.
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According to the American Heart Association's statistics, the outcome of CPR is mainly a question of response times and technique (proficiency of the crews involved).

Cardiac arrest is an extreme emergency (basically the patient is already DEAD !) - it wouldn't be fair to evaluate the usefulness of EMS based only on the outcome of cardiac arrest cases...

During my 15 years working as a medic, we managed to resuscitate a dozen patients (who made it home with a favorable neurological outcome ) - but I guess that we must have saved many patients that were having extreme emergencies and would have probably died without our intervention (complete respiratory arrest for asthma patients, severe pulmonary edema, cardiac arrhythmia, etc.)

Better pay, better working conditions, better education would contribute to a higher motivation amongst EMS workers - the end result would be a better service to the community.
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
According to the American Heart Association's statistics, the outcome of CPR is mainly a question of response times and technique (proficiency of the crews involved).

Cardiac arrest is an extreme emergency (basically the patient is already DEAD !) - it wouldn't be fair to evaluate the usefulness of EMS based only on the outcome of cardiac arrest cases...

During my 15 years working as a medic, we managed to resuscitate a dozen patients (who made it home with a favorable neurological outcome ) - but I guess that we must have saved many patients that were having extreme emergencies and would have probably died without our intervention (complete respiratory arrest for asthma patients, severe pulmonary edema, cardiac arrhythmia, etc.)

Better pay, better working conditions, better education would contribute to a higher motivation amongst EMS workers - the end result would be a better service to the community.
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Mine were in a rural or backcountry environment. Long response times.
 
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