800 wx Brief Too Conservative to be Useful?

neilw2

neilw2

Line Up and Wait
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Nov 23, 2013
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MA
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Display name:
Neil W
As a usual course of practice I review the wx before I leave my house for a flight. Then I file. En route to the airport I always call for a wx briefing. I figure that it helps to have someone else look over the wx and see if I missed something.

However, I think sometimes they limit their usefulness but defaulting to "flight not advisable" even though it could be a perfectly safe flight.

For example, today there was a thin cloud layer which made it OVC @ 1000 with tops around 2,500 or so with good vis above and below the deck. There was an airmet for icing starting at 8,000 or so- no problem for me as I would just be local and stay below 3,000.

I checked the freezing lvl before leaving and it was currently around 5,000 and forecast to be lifting as the day wore on.

However, when I call 800-wxbrief, the briefer tells me that because it is "so cold" the possibility for icing exists and "flight not recommended without FIKI equipment."

When I got to the airport I checked DUATS again, nothing changed from my original self brief, so up I went. I flew 5 approaches with the OAT about 2 C, picked up no ice and had an overall awesome IFR day that I would have missed if I listened to the overly cautious briefer. I'm all for making informed decisions and the last thing I want to be is stuck in ice but the lack of a AIRMET, PIREPS, or freezing level evidence should not have made the briefer advise against flight.

I feel they often advise against flight to cover themselves. There are many IFR and VFR flights I have made perfectly safe and legal even though the briefer has said "not recommended." I can't help but feel that when they use that so much its like the boy who cried wolf- they will start to fall on deaf ears.

I'll still follow my normal course of practice and brief myself before even calling them, using them as a "second check" but I just wish that they were more reliable about when a flight is not a good idea.

Ok, rant off.
 
Yeah I feel they do to cover their butts. I recall one 35 years ago asking me who my beneficiary was when I told I want to file an IFR flight plan. I laughed at him and told him to just take the flight plan.
 
This rant was unannounced, lacks true passion, and the target is a faceless bureaucracy. As such it only rates a 3/10 and that is a generous weekend score. The ranter is encouraged to seek training and perhaps professional career guidance.
 
Clark1961 said:
This rant was unannounced, lacks true passion, and the target is a faceless bureaucracy. As such it only rates a 3/10 and that is a generous weekend score. The ranter is encouraged to seek training and perhaps professional career guidance.
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I will work on getting more mad next time at the faceless beurocracy :D
 
Interesting... I’ve called for a good number of briefings over the years but I don’t think it has occurred to me to do so over the past 5 to 10.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Bill Watson said:
Interesting... I’ve called for a good number of briefings over the years but I don’t think it has occurred to me to do so over the past 5 to 10.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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You rebel you! :D
 
I use 1800wxbrief.com. This is the same information the briefer uses when you call him. Enter in your flight plan, and there it is, without an actual briefer asking for next of kin. When you open an account (Free of charge) and enter your information, it will record your activity.

As PIC I can, and will make my own determination to fly or not.
 
I find value in a good briefer.

I always get a standard VFR briefing from flight service before even a short flight.

I teach my primary students to get a standard VFR briefing and write down what they learned so we can discuss it.

I feel it is a mistake to imagine because nothing bad happened on a flight that departing on the flight was a good aviation decision.

I have only been told not to fly once when three thunderstorms were converging on my destination airport, Provo, Utah (PVU) and I was departing from Hurricane, Utah (UT66).

Otherwise they just tell me VFR flight not recommended.
 
It’s a liability issue. Their standards are a little conservative for my liking.
 
I got my PPL in 1992. I stopped flying in 1999, then I started flying again in 2014. One thing I noticed after my 15 year break was how often they NOW say "flight not recommended". At first, I was thinking that I was hitting a several-month-string of bad weather, but after a time came to realize they just advise that much more often now. My personal feeling is that this results in more people ignoring the advice, so the overall effect may be negative. In 1992, if they said "flight not recommended", it was very wise to listen. Now? You have to make up your own mind...so
 
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I've never had them recommend against flight due to icing...in fact, they've recommended IFR in icing and/or embedded thunderstorms when I called for a VFR briefing in my non-FIKI/non-radar airplane numerous times.
 
I love it when I used to call in to Lockmart and they’d tell me “VFR not recommended” when I was filing an IFR flight plan. o_O

“Uh, that’s why I’m filing IFR.” :D
 
I always call because like some have said, it's nice to have someone else look over it that does it for a living, but mainly it helps someone keep a job. Too many humans getti f replaced by automation. Also, never been advised against a flight...
 
They are often more conservative than I am. But I do want their synopsis and I do want a verbal confirmation regarding TFR's and stuff.

I did have an experience with fog once upon a time where they called for it, but it was daylight, the sun was up and bright, and there was no fog in sight. Clearly, they were idiots. I got about 3 hours of X/C time over fog all the way from Atlanta into the very NE corner of W. VA. Fortunately, my flight was right along the mountains and it was clear and a million to the West of the mountains, and completely socked in to the East of the mountains.
 
I don't use 1800WXbrief anymore. The information that they're going on is the same information that I can obtain from online sources. Once the days of local face to face briefing went bye bye and the internet took over, AFSS usefulness decreased dramatically.

I too have flown with "VFR flight not recommended" or similar statements. Just gotta give yourself a way out when the WX throws you a curve ball. Sometimes it's prudent to adhere to the briefer's advice though. My dad briefed this guy...face to face.
 

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mscard88 said:
Yeah I feel they do to cover their butts. I recall one 35 years ago asking me who my beneficiary was when I told I want to file an IFR flight plan. I laughed at him and told him to just take the flight plan.
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Well, the man had a 'wit.' Maybe he was outta annual leave, looking for a couple weeks off and was hoping you'd turn him in.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Didn't realize it was still available.
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Talking to a live briefer is still available. And if you do an online brief via www.1800wxbrief.com, you are viewing the same imagery they are. So if you wish to refer to something and discuss it, or see the same detail they are referring to as they talk about it, you can.

Just advise the briefer that you are looking at the online content and want to follow along. This clues them into telling you when they have switched panels or tabs.

I agree with folks that have posted in this thread that the info available is usually sufficient for a self brief. But I will call them when I have questions or desire a second opinion.
 
Does the iphone keep a call history? I see the number here but wondered when I’d actually called them last.
 
Since they contracted out weather briefings have sucked. They just read back the printout. Before they contracted it out I have talked to people that were very knowledgeable of local weather. It's nothing but CYA now.
 
My flight school had a rule that if LockMart said those words the flight couldn’t take place. That hit a head when they told me that, when the skies were crystal clear, because our ASOS said 1/4SM CLR with some ridiculous dry dew point spread.

My rough words to the guy was “what’s your email? I’m sending you a picture!”.
 
I don't use it. I haven't since PPL. Prog charts, icing forecasts, skew t, etc. through a variety of sources.
 
In Alaska during winter we would get the standard VFR not recommended from the on field FSS. I would call them back on the non-recorded line and tell them, "of course you know I am going to ignore that..."

I will say that when the weather went to all heck, the FSS guys there were stand up guys on getting VFR planes back into an IFR field. Maybe they just treated me well because 30 minutes after I land they will get pizza...except the one guy that liked vanilla ice cream and grape jelly.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Does the iphone keep a call history? I see the number here but wondered when I’d actually called them last.
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I know you know about recent calls, but if you periodically clear that list like I do, that doesn’t help with your question.

But for me, I am able to download mega detail from my mobile phone bills by grabbing the current and past bills as a PDF. This includes the call history. So grabbing that and doing a search would accomplish for me what you are asking.
 
Zeldman said:
In Alaska during winter we would get the standard VFR not recommended from the on field FSS. I would call them back on the non-recorded line and tell them, "of course you know I am going to ignore that..."

I will say that when the weather went to all heck, the FSS guys there were stand up guys on getting VFR planes back into an IFR field. Maybe they just treated me well because 30 minutes after I land they will get pizza...except on guy that liked vanilla ice cream and grape jelly.
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For the most part, once in the air I never had any problems getting the weather info I needed. Some days getting the info to make the decision to fly was a bit of an adventure.
 
flight-briefer-be-like-vfr-not-recommended.jpg
 
I occasionally call, but usually just use their website. I found increasingly the phone briefer was just reading off the same page I could see so there was no real value-add since I can read. Sometimes too it seems they route calls to briefed far away that aren’t familiar with local geography, hence why they probably just read off the page.

As for being conservative, I think that’s to be expected. It’s not regulatory, just a recommendation. You are still PIC, but if things are marginal and they don’t at “recommend” you don’t go VFR then it could come back to bite them.
 
tawood said:
I got my PPL in 1992. I stopped flying in 1999, then I started flying again in 2014. One thing I noticed after my 15 year break was how often they NOW say "flight not recommended". At first, I was thinking that I was hitting a several-month-string of bad weather, but after a time came to realize they just advise that much more often now. My personal feeling is that this results in more people ignoring the advice, so the overall effect may be negative. In 1992, if they said "flight not recommended", it was very wise to listen. Now? You have to make up your own mind...so
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Agree, if true this is a "cry wolf" scenario. I say "if true" because I haven't called for a briefing for some years now - in fact most likely not since I moved to Vermont. If I was flying in busier airspace then I would still use them for last-minute TFR updates, but that's about all.

However, that said, I agree with @Vance Breese that the fact that nothing bad happened is NOT evidence that launching was a good decision. I didn't take a close look down the OP's way yesterday, but up here we were having mixed precipitation with air temps at the surface only a few degrees above freezing, and much of the liquid portion was freezing on contact with the still-below-freezing surfaces. I'd expect my airframe to be in a similar state. I would also not have been too confident that the lower atmosphere was well-mixed, since winds were virtually calm. There may well have been pockets of below-freezing air floating around. This was a case when I wouldn't feel too confident about icing even without an icing airmet and even with a reported freezing level up well into the 5000 foot range. (I say "even" - but truth is, one can't shoot an approach here for real without going above 5000, given that the MIA is 5400.)

Again, not sure about conditions in southern New England where the OP is based, but up here in the north country if I had heard "flight not recommended" yesterday, I think I would have considered it good advice.
 
I used a briefer by requirement during my initial PP training 5 years ago. I haven’t used them since. I have access to the same data they do, and if I am unsure, I don’t go. Then again, I’m a crazy risk-taker with a terminal case of all 5 of the ‘bad attitudes’ pilots are supposed to avoid.
 
azure said:
... that the fact that nothing bad happened is NOT evidence that launching was a good decision....
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Agreed, and that's why I think more frequent use of "flight not recommended" can have opposite effect on eliminating dangerous flights.
 
Sometimes I call, and sometimes I do it online. One advantage of calling is that they seem to be able to cull through the reams of inapplicable NOTAMs faster than I can. Once in a while, I have gotten one with an attitude, but not that often. I learned very early on to ignore the opinions and just listen for the facts.
 
Palmpilot said:
Once in a while, I have gotten one with an attitude, but not that often.
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I got one with a horrible attitude when I'd had my license for about 9 months. We were headed to Oshkosh, planning on arriving Wednesday morning. I'd checked the hotline (or whatever EAA provided) and determined that parking was available and was expected to get better during the day.

When I listed Osh as the destination, the briefer went bonkers. "You can't get in there, the field is closed due to parking."

Um, no, I just spoke with them on the phone. Plenty of parking available.

It went back and forth several times, but his line that I remember was "Well, then, you must know something nobody else in the world knows."
 
kyleb said:
.

It went back and forth several times, but his line that I remember was "Well, then, you must know something nobody else in the world knows."
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Should have responded, "no, just you evidently". :D
 
Actually the worst attitude I ever got from a briefer was one that encouraged me to launch when there was abundant evidence around that things were not quite peachy - "Conditions forecast to improve throughout the day, you should have no trouble... have a good flight!" - when there were few/scattered low scud and mists around, even though the ceilings near home base (KPHN) were already adequate VFR.

That was the day I blundered into IMC about 25 miles SE of Gaylord, MI... just east of the restricted area around Grayling, with the lowest bases to the east so no easy 180 back to good VFR possible without risking an airspace bust. Up until then the ceilings were better than 3000 feet. I descended until I was skimming the bases at about 1500 AGL - lower than that I dared not go because of a >1000 foot tower shown on the sectional. I limped into KGLR, where the lying AWOS was reporting a ceiling of 2500 OVC, and was still shaking as I walked into the terminal building. I knew I had just screwed the pooch and hoped no one, especially no FAA inspector, had seen me scud running my way in.

That was a true never again! It was also the early days of LockMart I think, and the last time I trusted a briefer's read of the weather.
 
azure said:
However, that said, I agree with @Vance Breese that the fact that nothing bad happened is NOT evidence that launching was a good decision. I didn't take a close look down the OP's way yesterday, but up here we were having mixed precipitation with air temps at the surface only a few degrees above freezing, and much of the liquid portion was freezing on contact with the still-below-freezing surfaces. I'd expect my airframe to be in a similar state. I would also not have been too confident that the lower atmosphere was well-mixed, since winds were virtually calm. There may well have been pockets of below-freezing air floating around. This was a case when I wouldn't feel too confident about icing even without an icing airmet and even with a reported freezing level up well into the 5000 foot range. (I say "even" - but truth is, one can't shoot an approach here for real without going above 5000, given that the MIA is 5400.)

Again, not sure about conditions in southern New England where the OP is based, but up here in the north country if I had heard "flight not recommended" yesterday, I think I would have considered it good advice.
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I hear what you are saying but plenty of people were up shooting approaches yesterday. I know there was mixed precipitation in vt but it was a dry stable air mass in MA yesterday. Northern New England had a airmet for icing at the surface yesterday, but not down here.

I had outs as it was only a thin cloud layer with good vis above and below them. Based on all available evidence before the flight it was safe decision. Had the freezing lvl been lower, a pirep of icing, a icing airmet active, or the clouds have been lower I would not have flown
 
I always call if i'm doing a xcountry flight - maybe someday when I have more experience (and confidence) I'll forgo having someone else "look over" my plans. For now, though, I like to have someone review the weather on my route and confirm that I haven't missed anything. The briefers with whom I've spoken have all seemed pretty competent and helpful, so why not. :thumbsup:
 
kyleb said:
I got one with a horrible attitude when I'd had my license for about 9 months. We were headed to Oshkosh, planning on arriving Wednesday morning. I'd checked the hotline (or whatever EAA provided) and determined that parking was available and was expected to get better during the day.

When I listed Osh as the destination, the briefer went bonkers. "You can't get in there, the field is closed due to parking."

Um, no, I just spoke with them on the phone. Plenty of parking available.

It went back and forth several times, but his line that I remember was "Well, then, you must know something nobody else in the world knows."
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Was he refusing to give you a briefing or file your flight plan?
 
neilw2 said:
I hear what you are saying but plenty of people were up shooting approaches yesterday. I know there was mixed precipitation in vt but it was a dry stable air mass in MA yesterday. Northern New England had a airmet for icing at the surface yesterday, but not down here.

I had outs as it was only a thin cloud layer with good vis above and below them. Based on all available evidence before the flight it was safe decision. Had the freezing lvl been lower, a pirep of icing, a icing airmet active, or the clouds have been lower I would not have flown
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:thumbsup: Sounds like you had it covered then. As I said, I really wasn't too aware of conditions down your way yesterday. At the time I checked though, I didn't see a surface airmet here either, only above 8000, which had me wondering what the NWS folks were thinking. They may have extended the surface airmet into my area later on (though even now it's only above 8000, which seems crazy to me - current conditions at KMPV include FZFG :eek:). Regardless of the airmet or its absence, I didn't consider it a flyable day up here and wouldn't have been in the air even if the runway had been clear of ice, which it wasn't.
 
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