65 cherokee 180 IFR GPS?

cocolos

cocolos

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cocolos
How much would it be to install an IFR GPS on a 180? Are there alternatives to Garmin?
 
KLN 89B. About 4-5K installed with the used unit, indicator, antenna and annunciator light and data port thingies. That's the setup I have on my warrior and I'm very satisfied with it. It's the most utilized piece of avionics in my stack sans comm #1.
 
cocolos said:
How much would it be to install an IFR GPS on a 180? Are there alternatives to Garmin?
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I have an old shotgun panel on my Cherokee. I was thinking of fixing that and also putting a non-WAAS 430 in and the quotes were coming in around $16K. I also looked at kind of a minimum to get it IFR and Executive Autopilots at Sac Exec (good shop) quoted me $3,300 in labor (a friend was going to give me a KNS 80) and it included fixing the indicator on my MX12 and getting rid of the ADF and installing the KNS 80. I think you get into the panels on these older planes and you can run into some labor.

BTW, where do you fly out of? I am at LHM.

John
 
I have a GX-55 in mine, it's certifiable for enroute and terminal operations. They go for about $2500. With a KX-155 for glideslope, I figure that's all I need.

I plan to get it certified next year. About $1500 for a CDI/Annunciator.
 
If you're not in a hurry and don't mind being an early adopter, Avidyne will be releasing two competitors to Garmin's panel-mount GPS's over the next year, and they're pre-selling them today. You won't benefit from one of their biggest selling points, though--they're plug- and tray-compatible with the GNS-430/530, minimizing the labor associated with an upgrade to a more modern unit.

May not be right for you, but you should at least be aware of it as you shop around. They're the IFD440/540.
 
John221us said:
I have an old shotgun panel on my Cherokee. I was thinking of fixing that and also putting a non-WAAS 430 in and the quotes were coming in around $16K. I also looked at kind of a minimum to get it IFR and Executive Autopilots at Sac Exec (good shop) quoted me $3,300 in labor (a friend was going to give me a KNS 80) and it included fixing the indicator on my MX12 and getting rid of the ADF and installing the KNS 80. I think you get into the panels on these older planes and you can run into some labor.

BTW, where do you fly out of? I am at LHM.

John
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hindsight2020 said:
KLN 89B. About 4-5K installed with the used unit, indicator, antenna and annunciator light and data port thingies. That's the setup I have on my warrior and I'm very satisfied with it. It's the most utilized piece of avionics in my stack sans comm #1.
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Those are double the quotes I got.

I got a KLN89B, KI-202, AK650 all IFR certified AND a KY197 + some other misc stuff (marker beacons fixed and some wiring replaced) for less than $3000.

GPS transplant System $1K, KY197 $800 install $1,100.
 
bartmc said:
Those are double the quotes I got.

I got a KLN89B, KI-202, AK650 all IFR certified AND a KY197 + some other misc stuff (marker beacons fixed and some wiring replaced) for less than $3000.

GPS transplant System $1K, KY197 $800 install $1,100.
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Sunshine tax, I suppose. Everyone is $100/hr around here. Maybe I should take a trip east. :rolleyes:
 
John221us said:
Sunshine tax, I suppose. Everyone is $100/hr around here. Maybe I should take a trip east. :rolleyes:
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That was in Montana, I did some scratching and digging to turn up that hardware, got similar install quotes in Idaho.
 
John221us said:
I have an old shotgun panel on my Cherokee. I was thinking of fixing that and also putting a non-WAAS 430 in and the quotes were coming in around $16K. I also looked at kind of a minimum to get it IFR and Executive Autopilots at Sac Exec (good shop) quoted me $3,300 in labor (a friend was going to give me a KNS 80) and it included fixing the indicator on my MX12 and getting rid of the ADF and installing the KNS 80. I think you get into the panels on these older planes and you can run into some labor.

BTW, where do you fly out of? I am at LHM.

John
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Well I will be out of SAC at least that's where the share I'm planning on buying into is.
 
hindsight2020 said:
KLN 89B. About 4-5K installed with the used unit, indicator, antenna and annunciator light and data port thingies. That's the setup I have on my warrior and I'm very satisfied with it. It's the most utilized piece of avionics in my stack sans comm #1.
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Our partnership has a KLN-89b. It works fine, and if you fly frequently enough its not hard to use, especially if you have a tablet for situation awareness.

But you'd be crazy to install an 89b from scratch. The KLN-94 is plug-and-play compatible and is much better, and not much more expensive. I fully expect King to end of life the 89b before too many more years due to memory limitations.

About five years ago we put a Garmin 430 and an STec 20 autopilot in our Archer, that cost right at $11K.
 
Anyone know - is the IFD540 plug and play WAAS compatible with the 530? Not a 530W . . . so can you get WAAS from the unit PnP from a non-waas 530?

Then - will it send the same AP signals? and -

What about the TIS traffic off the GTX330? Its not listed as compatible. . .

Then of course we need to worry about ADS-B In/out along with the 406ELT but looks like this one will play nice with the other Avidyne parts . . .

the real question, as always, is support and will Avidyne be in 2020. . .
 
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To the OP - DO NOT under any circumstances install new avionics like a 430/530 etc - or God forbid - any King 89B/94 etc - in your existing airplane.

If you do the mathematics you will discover that it will cost you less [even with repairs and the first annual] to sell your existing airplane and buy one the way you want it . . .
 
If you're including the price of the unit, anywhere from about $4k to around $15k depending on what GPS you want to install. Anyone who says less is talking trash -- if they insist, demand a firm fixed price quote. That should shut them up.
 
comanchepilot said:
To the OP - DO NOT under any circumstances install new avionics like a 430/530 etc - or God forbid - any King 89B/94 etc - in your existing airplane.

If you do the mathematics you will discover that it will cost you less [even with repairs and the first annual] to sell your existing airplane and buy one the way you want it . . .
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So what would you recommend? I am planning on buying into a 1/10 share and they have an old gps that does not even support upgrades.
 
cocolos said:
So what would you recommend? I am planning on buying into a 1/10 share and they have an old gps that does not even support upgrades.
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If you want an IFR panel, you should pass and find something better. There is a club at LHM that has three planes, including a Cherokee Six.
 
John221us said:
If you want an IFR panel, you should pass and find something better. There is a club at LHM that has three planes, including a Cherokee Six.
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LHM is way too far away from me.
 
cocolos said:
So what would you recommend? I am planning on buying into a 1/10 share and they have an old gps that does not even support upgrades.
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Joe feels that one should not spend money to upgrade a plane when you won't recover the value upon sale of the aircraft. If everyone believed that nobody would ever do an upgrade, but would sell their plane and buy another with the desired equipment. Since the cost of selling one plane and buying another is somewhere around $5k, you can put $10k in a GPS and come out even. Bottom line is if want something, it's gonna cost ya, chief.
 
cocolos said:
LHM is way too far away from me.
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I was just pointing out that there are other opportunities. If you buy something that isn't a fit, you will have a hard time getting out of it in this market. It is better to hold out and get what you want. I doubt you will talk 9 co-owners into a major avionics upgrade, if they haven't done it already.
 
True. I think for now I'll just use it for what it worth, which is finishing my PPL and continue to get my IFR in it. Not planning on doing too much IFR anyways.
 
comanchepilot said:
To the OP - DO NOT under any circumstances install new avionics like a 430/530 etc - or God forbid - any King 89B/94 etc - in your existing airplane.

If you do the mathematics you will discover that it will cost you less [even with repairs and the first annual] to sell your existing airplane and buy one the way you want it . . .
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I put mine on the market for a few months last spring and didn't get a single phone call and I have no illusions that a Cherokee (even a clean one) is worth much. I do like my plane, but hate the panel, so I may end up spending money on it and keeping the plane.
 
comanchepilot said:
If you do the mathematics you will discover that it will cost you less [even with repairs and the first annual] to sell your existing airplane and buy one the way you want it . . .
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There is some truth to that, but it's an over broad generalization.

Even if you are an individual owner, you may have a plane that you know inside and out. You've probably paid thousands to get it to the state you and your AI like.

Sure, you could sell this known good plane for a similar used plane with a better gps, but you are taking the huge risk that goes with any airplane purchase. The rule of thumb that seems to work for most purchasers of new-to-them planes is to allow 10% of the purchase price for unscheduled maintenance over the first year or two. That few thousand dollars you 'saved' by trading in your known good plane for the bag of unknown problems that lurk in this new-to-you plane with better radios can be eaten up really fast.

And even if the new-to-you plane has no more issues than your old plane, how much is your time worth? Because selling and buying a plane is very time consuming.

In the case of the OP, he's buying in to a partnership. In that case, he doesn't have the option to to sell his share and buy a share in a similar partnership that has a plane with better radios.

Partnership or sole owner, if you have a good corrosion free GA airplane with a sound engine and no serious known issues it is an entirely rational decision to upgrade your avionics rather than buying a new-to-you plane that I promise will have issues.

If you are buying your first plane, or stepping up to a larger class of plane, then by all means try to find one that has most of the avionics you want already installed.
 
comanchepilot said:
Anyone know - is the IFD540 plug and play WAAS compatible with the 530? Not a 530W . . . so can you get WAAS from the unit PnP from a non-waas 530?
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From Avidyne's IFD440/540 FAQ: "2. What is the IFD440? (Added 5 July 2012)
The IFD440 is the same product as the IFD540, albeit it in a smaller form factor and minus some functions that are better suited for larger glass (e.g. Charts, TAWS). It is a plug and place replacement for the GNS 430/430W."

and

"9. Is the IFD540 or IFD440 capable of acting as a "sole" source navigation device? (Updated 5 July 2012)
Yes, it can. Just like a GNS 530/530W and same for the GNS 430/430W."
Then - will it send the same AP signals?
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"10. Does the IFD540 work in my existing cockpit? (24 July 2011)
Yes, the IFD540 was designed to be a plug in replacement for the GNS530/530W so it must integrate with all the existing equipment that the 530/530W previously operated with. This includes a long list of PFDs, EFIS, CDIs, HSIs, remote sensors, discrete, autopilots, MFDs, etc."
and -

What about the TIS traffic off the GTX330? Its not listed as compatible. . .
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"51. Does the IFD540/440 Support TIS traffic? (Updated 5 July 2012)
Yes."
Then of course we need to worry about ADS-B In/out along with the 406ELT but looks like this one will play nice with the other Avidyne parts . . .

the real question, as always, is support and will Avidyne be in 2020. . .
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True. They're definitely smaller than Garmin, and haven't been around as long, but they do have a history of good products and support and have been around now for almost 20 years. Not exactly an unknown or flash-in-the-pan company.

For the last several years, there's been no legitimate competition to the 430W/530W. These Avidyne products will compete directly against Garmin's GTN series units.

It's nice to have another player in the game. If they give Garmin a good fight, then we'll all win.
 
I hate the logic that these damn all in one boxes are the only bona fide way to have /G capability in one's recreational flying, with nothing in between. Everything points to a handheld VFR GPS option or a 15K intalled cost garmin wonderbox. I find the King series to be a good compromise.

It's almost 2013 and 89B is still being supported, so from my perspective there is still a big enough market for GPS-only boxes. Seeing as how I fly behind a KLN900 (militarized 90B) in the Texan II fleet and support is not going away for a long time, that gives me reason to believe the 89/90/94 series will continue to be supported well after all the garmin 430 boxes get the finger from garmin. That hurts a lot more than having an $1800 gps box be deemed unsupportable.

I would have no problem dumping 5K installed to bring an airplane into approach /G territory. Of course in doing so I'm committing to owning the aircraft for a while.

Now, all that said, I bought my warriorII with an IFR GPS already on it and I'm glad I did. I've got a lot of good use out of it. My replacement aircraft will have to be /G already. There's just no point for me to enter into another aircraft knowing my mission profile as well as I know it, and buy something I would automatically have to spend avionics money on. Any XC non-trainer bird out there that a seller wants market price for is going to have to have that capability or he has to be willing to discount, which I know most aren't willing to.

For the OP, think long and hard about upgrades. It's more about the fundamental capabilities of the airplane. You can make anything from a C-150 to a King Air a /G, but yet still encounter very different mission capabilities. If the cherokee is not your long term mission airplane, do not upgrade anything on it. I just went through that math on mine. I want 2 doors, better climb rate, same cruise or better, while retaining 50 gallon fuel capacity. I can do better by selling at a loss and finding a replacement cessna, rather than upgrading the engine, not to mention the one-door thing is a deal breaker anyways. I admit, as much as I love my 89B I wouldn't have put one in on it knowing I do not wish to keep it long term. If the warrior had been the to-keep airplane, I would have done it in a heartbeat. 5-7K difference in installation cost is a lot of years of flying for my use.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I hate the logic that these damn all in one boxes are the only bona fide way to have /G capability in one's recreational flying, with nothing in between. Everything points to a handheld VFR GPS option or a 15K intalled cost garmin wonderbox. I find the King series to be a good compromise.
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ditto the old garmin 155 and 300
 
Isn't one of the major problems with all these older GPS units that they can't hold all of the U.S. waypoints for all the approaches that are popping up?
 
denverpilot said:
Isn't one of the major problems with all these older GPS units that they can't hold all of the U.S. waypoints for all the approaches that are popping up?
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not so much, You have to remember that as new approaches are being added, a similar number of overlay approaches are being dropped. In some cases where databases have indeed gotten too big, jeppesen has separated it into east half and west half of the country, etc.

I recently installed an ancient garmin 300, dirt cheap and does everything any non-waas box will do, and for the foreseeable future there doesn't seem to be any database issues.
 

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Interesting. I've been avoiding them as options because I figured they were not up to holding the stuff.

They're also paperweights with few options to repair them if they croak, but at the tiny prices involved, they're close to being throwaway avionics.
 
JHW said:
not so much, You have to remember that as new approaches are being added, a similar number of overlay approaches are being dropped. In some cases where databases have indeed gotten too big, jeppesen has separated it into east half and west half of the country, etc.

I recently installed an ancient garmin 300, dirt cheap and does everything any non-waas box will do, and for the foreseeable future there doesn't seem to be any database issues.
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if you don't mind me asking, how much?
 
Ron Levy said:
...and then a couple of thousand to have it installed and certified unless you have the ability and the license to do it yourself.
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you can find someone to approve your installation for ~$500 if you shop around. Installation grunt worn does not equal approval, and vice-versa.
 
JHW said:
you can find someone to approve your installation for ~$500 if you shop around. Installation grunt worn does not equal approval, and vice-versa.
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You can get approved to do the installation yourself?
 
John221us said:
There used to be a guy in the area who would do it, but I haven't found another, since he retired. Let me know if you do.
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Will do! First I need to figure what GPS would be a good fit, if any at all.
 
cocolos said:
You can get approved to do the installation yourself?
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Yes. All it takes is a Mechanic's certificate with Airframe rating (or a Repair Station certificate with Radio rating). However, that's a bit more than most folks care to do.

Another option (the one Jeff seems to be suggesting) is to find a properly certified individual to supervise and approve your work. That still requires you have the specialized knowledge and skill to do the work yourself, which not many aircraft owners have, and to invest a week or two of your time to the effort.
 
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