5 persons in a 4 place plane

C

cessnapilot

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
Messages
1
Location
Big Bear Lake, CA
Display Name
scott
Home Airfield
L35
Can I fly with my infant 2 month old grand daughter in the arms of her mother while in my c-182 with the other seats carrying other passengers ( well under gross weight)? Where would I research this.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Scott
 
cessnapilot said:
Can I fly with my infant 2 month old grand daughter in the arms of her mother while in my c-182 with the other seats carrying other passengers ( well under gross weight)? Where would I research this.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Scott
Click to expand...
Try this...

You'll also hear plenty of opinions on whether or not this is a good idea.

§91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements. Notwithstanding the preceding requirements of this paragraph, a person may:

(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, it's legal. You have a mini meat missile in an accident, but it's pretty squishy.
 
It's legal but not always smart to hold a baby in your lap. Never know what could happen.
 
Everskyward said:
You'll also hear plenty of opinions on whether or not this is a good idea.
Click to expand...
I don't think you'll hear many (if any) opinions saying the lap-carriage is a good idea.

In any event, I believe there is a child seat device made for Cessnas which mounts in the baggage area -- google around and you should be able to find one. Other than that, I don't think there is any safe way to put an infant in a C-182 along with four adults while the aircraft is in motion.
 
I've seen 5 not small people get out of a Luscombe, so you can probably squeeze that many in a 182.

Don't get in a wreck - if you do, the kid is toast. Is it worth it?
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think you'll hear many (if any) opinions saying the lap-carriage is a good idea.
Click to expand...
There were plenty of people in the "crunchy mom" thread who said they wouldn't have a problem with it, and there are many people who do it on airlines to avoid buying another seat.
 
Everskyward said:
There were plenty of people in the "crunchy mom" thread who said they wouldn't have a problem with it, and there are many people who do it on airlines to avoid buying another seat.
Click to expand...


Even if you do buy another seat, often they don't let you put a carseat in it.
 
Everskyward said:
There were plenty of people in the "crunchy mom" thread who said they wouldn't have a problem with it,
Click to expand...
Not that many.

and there are many people who do it on airlines to avoid buying another seat.
Click to expand...
The people who do it on the airlines aren't the issue here, and they are absolutely clueless about the risks they are taking.
 
When I was about that size, they (parents) would put me on the package tray behind the seat in the V-77.
When we got the T-50 I was a bit older and larger, but there was plenty of room in the rear floor for me to play with my cars, and airplanes. Mom was allways right seat, untill the time she forgot to "burp" the thermos during climbout.
 
There are baby harnesses made to carry infants. These are usually like a backpack worn on the front. Find one that lets the baby face forward.

Mom puts on the carrier, gets into the plane, gets strapped in, then puts the baby in the carrier. Everybody happy.
 
SoloEqs said:
There are baby harnesses made to carry infants. These are usually like a backpack worn on the front. Find one that lets the baby face forward.

Mom puts on the carrier, gets into the plane, gets strapped in, then puts the baby in the carrier. Everybody happy.
Click to expand...
Except the FAA if they see it (since it violates 14 CFR 91.107) and the baby if there's an accident (because that carrier device will fail under those g-loads).
 
Ron Levy said:
Except the FAA if they see it (since it violates 14 CFR 91.107) and the baby if there's an accident (because that carrier device will fail under those g-loads).
Click to expand...


If the alternative is to simply hold the kid in your lap, I'll take the carrier any day.
 
Henning said:
So? If the concern is legal pop the kid out after landing and take the harness off, now you have a perfectly legal lap baby.
Click to expand...
That's how you evade the law, not comply with it. So if your concern is legal, then that's now how you do it. And this is not a case of safe vs legal, since the suggested carrier is both unsafe and illegal. The only safe way to carry a child in an aircraft is in an FAA-approved child safety seat/restraint system. And that's legal, too.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's how you evade the law, not comply with it. So if your concern is legal, then that's now how you do it. And this is not a case of safe vs legal, since the suggested carrier is both unsafe and illegal. The only safe way to carry a child in an aircraft is in an FAA-approved child safety seat/restraint system. And that's legal, too.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree, whenever I haul little kids they go in a seat.
 
Ron Levy said:
Except the FAA if they see it (since it violates 14 CFR 91.107) and the baby if there's an accident (because that carrier device will fail under those g-loads).
Click to expand...

Is there a statement from the FAA stating that one of these papoose-like carriers are illegal? My hands and arms are technically restraining devices as well. I read 91.107 as "don't put the kid on your lap, and then put the seat belt around both of you."
 
EdFred said:
Is there a statement from the FAA stating that one of these papoose-like carriers are illegal?
Click to expand...
Yes.
14 CFR 91.107 said:
(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;
Click to expand...

My hands and arms are technically restraining devices as well.
Click to expand...
Whether they are or not, they are specifically permitted by the quoted section, where as the carriers under discussion are specifically prohibited.

I read 91.107 as "don't put the kid on your lap, and then put the seat belt around both of you."
Click to expand...
It says "any restraining device," not "the installed seat belt being used by the adult involved", so you are reading that which is not there.
 
If the FAA has made that statement, then that's the end of it.

I still don't see how an Eddie Bauer backpack, purse, grocery bag (my dad used to carry my brother around in one for laughs), Indiana Jones satchel (for Preemies) ever got defined as a restraining device. Must have been another one of the idiots like MacPherson they hired.

Actually, I'm not reading past what is there, and that's the issue. The FAA has apparently defined anything that you put something (or someone) into as a "restraining device." Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to take the garbage restraining device out of the trash bin, and put it in the garage.

I only found 2 91.107 opinions on the legal interpretation search, and neither stated that baby backpacks were restraining devices. IS it an AC?
 
Last edited:
I give up trying to explain this to someone who clearly has some agenda other than understanding this rule. If anyone besides Ed needs assistance understanding this regulation, please say so. Other than that, I'm done.
 
No agenda. I've actually been looking through ACs GC opinions and even some AMs, and so far I have found nothing that says a baby backpack is a restraining device.

So, if the FAA said so, where is it? I can't find it, and I've looked through about 100 different search results from the FAA site. I have about another 100 to go through, but no summary results indicate anything like what you said they said.

The closest I have found is this from AC120-87B where they define a child restraint as...

 ...in recentrulemakings, the FAA uses the term “child restraint system” to describe any approved seat or device used to restrain children on aircraft regardless of whether or not it complies with therequirements of FMVSS No. 213. To reduce consumer confusion between CRSs meeting the requirements of FMVSS No. 213 (safe for use in motor vehicles) and CRSs designed only foruse in aircraft (not safe for use in motor vehicles), the FAA has introduced a new term referring to CRSs only approved for aviation use. The FAA will call these aviation-only restraints Aviation Child Safety Devices (ACSD).


Prohibition.
Except for ACSDs approved by the FAA through a TC, STC, TSO, or under § 21.305(d), the following CRSs continue to be prohibited for use during ground movement, takeoff, and landing:
• Lap-held child restraint (commonly referred to as a belly belt),
• Vest- and harness-type devices that attach the child to the parent, the parent’s restraint system, or to the aircraft seatbelt, and
• Booster-type child restraints (even though they may bear appropriate labels showing that they meet applicable United Nations standards or are approved by a foreign government.)

Which says to me that once in the air, vest away.

But this AC seems to be directed towards 121 operations.
 
Last edited:
On last night's news there was a story about an airliner hitting turbulence, with a flight attendant being critically injured.

Of note: they report a baby wad torn from its mother's arms and went sailing over several rows of seats to be dropped in the lap of another passenger.

Just an anecdote to file away when considering the risk/reward equation.
 
I still can't find where the FAA said what Ron says they have. So I guess I will chalk it up to another Ronism of "believe me because I'm Ron."
 
I guess nobody but Ed has any trouble understanding 91.107, so I guess I'll just chalk up Ed's posts to Ed being Ed.
 
I never made the claim that the FAA said that a baby harness is a restraining device. You did. But it seems nowhere to be found. At least I have attempted to back up my position. You just expect everyone to believe you because you said so, and get indignant when someone doesn't kiss your ass. So, where has the FAA said that a baby harness is a restraining device?
 
Not arguing about the regulation, but why would the FAA be OK with a baby in someone's lap with no other safety attached to it, and not with a baby backpack on someone's lap?

Sounds like the second is safer (not necessarily safe, but safer). The only possible reason I can come up with is that they assume that it provides a false sense of safety, so the carrier would not bother holding the baby with his/her arms (arms might be considered safer than baby backpack straps, I don't know).
 
Johann said:
Not arguing about the regulation, but why would the FAA be OK with a baby in someone's lap with no other safety attached to it, and not with a baby backpack on someone's lap?

Sounds like the second is safer (not necessarily safe, but safer). The only possible reason I can come up with is that they assume that it provides a false sense of safety, so the carrier would not bother holding the baby with his/her arms (arms might be considered safer than baby backpack straps, I don't know).
Click to expand...

Upon searching AC and GC opinions, I can't find where the FAA has said baby backpacks are no bueno, other than in that AC I referenced a few posts up which refers to child restraint devices*

These are the results I got searching online for 91.107 on the FAA site, and unless I missed one, none of them say anything about baby backpacks.

*They have defined child restraint devices as an approved devices for use in motor vehicles (eg car seats, harnesses that are buckled in) and that those are not to be held on the laps, but I still can't find anything about baby backpacks.
 
Last edited:
Johann said:
Not arguing about the regulation, but why would the FAA be OK with a baby in someone's lap with no other safety attached to it, and not with a baby backpack on someone's lap?
Click to expand...
The FAA is OK with lap babies because the airlines beat them into submission over the issue in order to sell tickets to families with babies who will go on trips if they don't have to pay for another seat, but not if they do. As for the baby backpacks (or really front packs), I have no information on why they don't allow it, and I'll pass on guessing.

Sounds like the second is safer (not necessarily safe, but safer). The only possible reason I can come up with is that they assume that it provides a false sense of safety, so the carrier would not bother holding the baby with his/her arms (arms might be considered safer than baby backpack straps, I don't know).
Click to expand...
That's possible. All I know about that is that if you sit down on an airliner with the kid in one of those devices, you will be ordered by the cabin crew to remove the kid from it and stow the device -- seen it done, never seen it allowed to pass.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA is OK with lap babies because the airlines beat them into submission over the issue in order to sell tickets to families with babies who will go on trips if they don't have to pay for another seat, but not if they do. As for the baby backpacks (or really front packs), I have no information on why they don't allow it, and I'll pass on guessing.

That's possible. All I know about that is that if you sit down on an airliner with the kid in one of those devices, you will be ordered by the cabin crew to remove the kid from it and stow the device -- seen it done, never seen it allowed to pass.
Click to expand...

Is it possible that's an airline(s) policy based on the AC I quoted, and not an FAA mandate? I still haven't found where the FAA has stated that the backpacks are restraining devices, and I see you still haven't provided where they have stated as such. All I am asking is where is it in writing?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top