5 people in a 182, is it legal?

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dennyleeb

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If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
 
dennyleeb said:
If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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Legal and safe in this instance are not related.
 
2 children in 1 seat belt in an accident isn't very safe as the forces will crash them together with high chance for high force cranial contact.
 
Henning said:
2 children in 1 seat belt in an accident isn't very safe as the forces will crash them together with high chance for high force cranial contact.
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some make em wear helmets, problem solved
 
dennyleeb said:
some make em wear helmets, problem solved
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That's one solution, however one that will only last a couple more years. Considering the market conditions at the moment, the better long term solution would probably go with the 206 or skip the extra kid.
 
I wouldn't put a child in an airplane unless they had their own restraint system. SOME airplanes have a rear bench seat with belts for three, or STC'ed third restraint add-ons Since a belt is all that's needed for an infant carrier, you might be ok with that.
 
I'll be taking 4 adults plus me up in about 15 minutes. Thankfully I don't have to land with them - just hope to hell the fan spins up to 1500agl.
 
so all agree that it is legal?
 
dennyleeb said:
so all agree that it is legal?
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I haven't drawn that conclusion from what I've read here. The passenger restraint rules Jesse is operating under when doing skydiving operations are different than what you need to look at flying your family. What I Have drawn from what I've read here is that, irrespective of the legality, the safety just isn't there for most to feel comfortable doing it.
 
dennyleeb said:
If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-06-23/html/2011-15709.htm

Maybe I'll spend some time later researching if this went anywhere.

As a slight thread-jacking aside here, using the Butte Pilatus accident in the notice as an example of the issue is to me ridiculous bordering on idiotic. It wouldn't have mattered how many people were sharing a seatbelt they would have all been equally dead and the probable cause of the accident had nothing to do with passenger loading.
 
gprellwitz said:
I haven't drawn that conclusion from what I've read here. The passenger restraint rules Jesse is operating under when doing skydiving operations are different than what you need to look at flying your family. What I Have drawn from what I've read here is that, irrespective of the legality, the safety just isn't there for most to feel comfortable doing it.
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most airlines allow a lap child, so i am thinking it is legal but some feel it is not a good idea, has anyone ever read where this exact thing lead to a accident or injury that otherwise would not have happened?

the larger issue is if i want the same options in a 206 as my plane has it is gonna cost me about 150k extra, fewer options is not a option either, the main reason i would like to put it off for a few years
 
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dennyleeb said:
My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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Denny,

No matter how hard you try, those kids aren't going to stay that size forever. If the timing is right, you may consider upgrading now. You are going to need something bigger once they get older anyways and they can travel safer in the meantime. Also, kids require bags of treats, handheld games, and other associated baggage that you will need room for. My advice to you; no matter what you decide, make sure your intercom has a pilot isolate switch:idea:
 
MN_Flyer said:
Denny,

No matter how hard you try, those kids aren't going to stay that size forever. If the timing is right, you may consider upgrading now. You are going to need something bigger once they get older anyways and they can travel safer in the meantime. Also, kids require bags of treats, handheld games, and other associated baggage that you will need room for. My advice to you; no matter what you decide, make sure your intercom has a pilot isolate switch:idea:
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yeah no doubt

i would like a 206 i just don't wanna spend the money

i could save some cash going with a 6x or something but i love the cessna high wings
 
maybe a vasectomy is the way to go the more i think about it
 
<sarcasm> Or, when the kids get bigger, sell an organ or two. I mean, with three kids, ONE's gotta be a spare, right? </sarcasm>
 
dennyleeb said:
maybe a vasectomy is the way to go the more i think about it
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Just had my 2nd 38 hours ago and all stopping now would do is make me think I can fit them all in a nice used composite glass panel. One more would force me to be happy with a PA32:)
 
dennyleeb said:
If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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I have a C182P. It has the optional 5th "child" seat that can be installed in the baggage compartment. Has 120lbs weight limit. You gain access via the baggage door. My 18yr old (at the time) daughter weighed 100lbs. She rode back there, but it was very cramped. Also it get's really hot with the sun coming through the back window. I wouldn't put a little child back there. Come to think of it, I wouldn't put a large child back there either unless they were due for a "time out" :)

There is also zero room for bags, purses, backpacks, etc. I think you're probably gonna need a 6 seat aircraft, cause you'll need seats and bags.
 
Legal, yes, comfortable , no. I was the child in the backseat with two small female adults.:( Been there, did that in the sixties when things were a lot looser. We fit, it flew. Dave
 
dennyleeb said:
If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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Tough to put the stuff for 3 kids in a 182, much less them and their parents!:hairraise: We have 3 kids, 22, 18 and 16, the world is not designed for a family of 5! Hotel rooms, cruise ship cabins, restaurant tables are all for set up for 4 people.:( We can barely fit all 5 with bags in our 421.:yikes: But none of them are petite.:rolleyes:
 
N747JB said:
Tough to put the stuff for 3 kids in a 182, much less them and their parents!:hairraise: We have 3 kids, 22, 18 and 16, the world is not designed for a family of 5! Hotel rooms, cruise ship cabins, restaurant tables are all for set up for 4 people.:( We can barely fit all 5 with bags in our 421.:yikes: But none of them are petite.:rolleyes:
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as of now the two are 7 and 4 and the third is just a thought, so all pretty small and i am not talking 10-15 yr plan more like 5 yr plan
 
dennyleeb said:
as of now the two are 7 and 4 and the third is just a thought, so all pretty small and i am not talking 10-15 yr plan more like 5 yr plan
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Look for an STC mid child seat anchor set, I'm pretty sure they're available.
 
dennyleeb said:
If you have small kids and put two of them in one seat belt is it legal? Do you have to notify your insurance company? My wife and I have two small kids and thinking of having another. Wondering if I should go to a 206. Really happy with my 182.
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How old are you kids??
Sec. 91.107 — Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator—
(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements. Notwithstanding the preceding requirements of this paragraph, a person may:
(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;
(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting; or
(iii) Notwithstanding any other requirement of this chapter, occupy an approved child restraint system furnished by the operator or one of the persons described in paragraph (a)(3)(iii)(A) of this section provided that:
(A) The child is accompanied by a parent, guardian, or attendant designated by the child's parent or guardian to attend to the safety of the child during the flight;

I would say No its not legal, since the regs say that each person must be in a approved seat, but im shur someone could say "Well it dosent say you cant have two!" Thats true.

If they are under two you have have you wife hold one. That is legal.
 
dennyleeb said:
as of now the two are 7 and 4 and the third is just a thought, so all pretty small and i am not talking 10-15 yr plan more like 5 yr plan
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flyingmoose said:
How old are you kids??
Sec. 91.107 — Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator—
(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements. Notwithstanding the preceding requirements of this paragraph, a person may:
(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;
(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting; or
(iii) Notwithstanding any other requirement of this chapter, occupy an approved child restraint system furnished by the operator or one of the persons described in paragraph (a)(3)(iii)(A) of this section provided that:
(A) The child is accompanied by a parent, guardian, or attendant designated by the child's parent or guardian to attend to the safety of the child during the flight;

I would say No its not legal, since the regs say that each person must be in a approved seat, but im shur someone could say "Well it dosent say you cant have two!" Thats true.

If they are under two you have have you wife hold one. That is legal.
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FAA Interpretation 1990-14 regarding FAR 91.14(a)(3) [which is now FAR 91:107(a)(C)]: "As long as approved safety belts are carried aboard the aircraft for all occupants, and the structural strength requirements for the seats are not exceeded, the seating of two persons whose combined weights does not exceed 170 pounds under one safety belt where the belt can be properly secured around both persons would not be a violation of the regulations for an operation under Part 91." AOPA's subject report, Traveling with Children and Family, is available on AOPA Online.

as stated earlier one is just a thought
 
dennyleeb said:
FAA Interpretation 1990-14 regarding FAR 91.14(a)(3) [which is now FAR 91:107(a)(C)]: "As long as approved safety belts are carried aboard the aircraft for all occupants, and the structural strength requirements for the seats are not exceeded, the seating of two persons whose combined weights does not exceed 170 pounds under one safety belt where the belt can be properly secured around both persons would not be a violation of the regulations for an operation under Part 91." AOPA's subject report, Traveling with Children and Family, is available on AOPA Online.

as stated earlier one is just a thought
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Thats is an interesting document. I had not seen it before. Thanks
 
flyingmoose said:
I would say No its not legal, since the regs say that each person must be in a approved seat, but im shur someone could say "Well it dosent say you cant have two!" Thats true.

If they are under two you have have you wife hold one. That is legal.
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The seat must be approved but the FAA has held that as long as the combined weight is <170lbs that 2 people can share a belt.
 
Henning said:
The seat must be approved but the FAA has held that as long as the combined weight is <170lbs that 2 people can share a belt.
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Yea I read that in the Interpretation 1990-14. Learn something new everyday huh? Thanks
 
I should point out that the NTSB for years has been trying to get the FAA to do away with the rule that children under 2 may be held in the lap because in a crash the flying bodies are a danger not only to the child but to other occupants. In other words, just because the FAA says it's legal doesn't mean that most people consider it safe. So, do you love your kids?:yikes:
 
gprellwitz said:
I should point out that the NTSB for years has been trying to get the FAA to do away with the rule that children under 2 may be held in the lap because in a crash the flying bodies are a danger not only to the child but to other occupants. In other words, just because the FAA says it's legal doesn't mean that most people consider it safe. So, do you love your kids?:yikes:
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not really talking about a lap child, more of a shared seat belt

I have never heard of anyone getting injured from a flying baby
 
dennyleeb said:
most airlines allow a lap child, so i am thinking it is legal but some feel it is not a good idea, has anyone ever read where this exact thing lead to a accident or injury that otherwise would not have happened?
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Yes. A lap child died in a crash of a Socata a few blocks from my house.

You should be aware that 9g's of forward acceleration is typical in a gear-up landing. Other crashes would have more forward acceleration. A 20-pound child would exert 9 X 20 = 180 pounds of forward force at 9 g's. Some crashes would exert much more than that. A child seat or a safety belt are strong enough to withstand many thousands of pounds of force, but I'd bet your wife can't pull back more than a hundred pounds with her arms. If she goes to a gym she can find out exactly how much, but it won't be thousands of pounds, that's for sure.

When my children were small, I always paid for their airplane tickets when we flew commercially, because I love them and I don't want them to die. Other parents seem to view their small children instead as sources of inconvenient expenses to be avoided whenever the law allows, so they do the lap-child thing instead.
 
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I would never attempt to strap 2 of my kids into one seatbelt for 2 reasons:
1) I don't like listening to them scream at each other (which I think would begin right about the time I rotated off the runway)
2) As a family we have accepted the additional risk that comes with flying a small plane. I cannot stomach adding any more risk to that.

I can't imagine the hellish spiral of guilt I'd be under if I bent a plane and lost one or two kids who were sharing a seatbelt.

All that said, Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft have built some great 6 place haulers. We fly a Cherokee Six, which provides plenty of sibling separation and enough space to carry all of the child maintenance materiel. I think you must have a great 182, to not be willing to buy a slightly older 210 or 206. I'll bet you can find one that is nearly as tricked out as your 182, but a bit older.

Edit: I just reread your comment about a 150k delta to go with a comparable 206. I think at this point 150k would by a sweet 206, or an older PA-32 that you could completely refurb.
 
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COFlyBoy said:
I would never attempt to strap 2 of my kids into one seatbelt for 2 reasons:
1) I don't like listening to them scream at each other (which I think would begin right about the time I rotated off the runway)
2) As a family we have accepted the additional risk that comes with flying a small plane. I cannot stomach adding any more risk to that.

I can't imagine the hellish spiral of guilt I'd be under if I bent a plane and lost one or two kids who were sharing a seatbelt.

All that said, Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft have built some great 6 place haulers. We fly a Cherokee Six, which provides plenty of sibling separation and enough space to carry all of the child maintenance materiel. I think you must have a great 182, to not be willing to buy a slightly older 210 or 206. I'll bet you can find one that is nearly as tricked out as your 182, but a bit older.

Edit: I just reread your comment about a 150k delta to go with a comparable 206. I think at this point 150k would by a sweet 206, or an older PA-32 that you could completely refurb.
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I would not buy a plane older than 2005 ( just me, but I don't like anything that is old, cars, boats, houses, or planes), and g1000 or better is a must for me, the 206's I have looked at are all 400k plus, there is no way to say that with out sounding like a ass but it is just me, hopefully not the ass part but just the way I choose to fly
 
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NoHeat said:
Yes. A lap child died in a crash of a Socata a few blocks from my house.

You should be aware that 9g's of forward acceleration is typical in a gear-up landing. Other crashes would have more forward acceleration. A 20-pound child would exert 9 X 20 = 180 pounds of forward force at 9 g's. Some crashes would exert much more than that. A child seat or a safety belt are strong enough to withstand many thousands of pounds of force, but I'd bet your wife can't pull back more than a hundred pounds with her arms. If she goes to a gym she can find out exactly how much, but it won't be thousands of pounds, that's for sure.

When my children were small, I always paid for their airplane tickets when we flew commercially, because I love them and I don't want them to die. Other parents seem to view their small children instead as sources of inconvenient expenses to be avoided whenever the law allows, so they do the lap-child thing instead.
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again I did not say lap child, a lap child sits on their moms lap w/out a seatbelt, I am talking sitting side by side, and out of curisoity was anyone else injured on that Socata (or was the lap child the only one injured)
 
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