44709

[Unregistered]

If requested to submit to a "709" checkride what are my options?
I really dont have a problem with the request, but do not have a suitable
plane available to me. A check out at the nearest place that i can rent is 60nm
away and outrageous hourly rates. I was informed that I could expect 2.5 hrs min for the checkout (money hungry bastards!) then to fly to FSDO, 709 ride would cost me nearly $1000. Does the FAA have me by the nads, or is there some other way??

 

[gismo]

If requested to submit to a "709" checkride what are my options?
I really dont have a problem with the request, but do not have a suitable
plane available to me. A check out at the nearest place that i can rent is 60nm
away and outrageous hourly rates. I was informed that I could expect 2.5 hrs min for the checkout (money hungry bastards!) then to fly to FSDO, 709 ride would cost me nearly $1000. Does the FAA have me by the nads, or is there some other way??

What and where do you normally fly? AFaIK the FSDO will come to you, but then I've never actually been treated to a 709 ride.

 

[Unregistered]

What and where do you normally fly? AFaIK the FSDO will come to you, but then I've never actually been treated to a 709 ride.

That is the prob. I recently relocated several states away from where i was flying. There it would not be a problem, 8 pilots "leased " an a/c forming a
flying club of sorts/

I have flown the "typical" trainers:
c150
c152
C172
c172r
PA12
PA28-140
PA28-180
R-22 (helo)

 

[Jim Chumley]

If requested to submit to a "709" checkride what are my options?

What IS a 44709 or 709 checkride? I've never heard of it. I assume the FAA (?) is questioning your ability to fly?

Jim

 

[Unregistered]

What IS a 44709 or 709 checkride? I've never heard of it. I assume the FAA (?) is questioning your ability to fly?

Jim

sort of..lets just say I am one of the victims of a unscrupulous flight instructor.

 

[Jim Chumley]

If requested to submit to a "709" checkride what are my options?

In an earlier post, I asked what is a 409 ride. I found information on the AOPA website. Look at: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=5253 You may want a lawyer.

Members of AOPA's Legal Services Plan have easy and affordable access to legal counsel to help navigate the issues; you can learn more about the plan on AOPA Online. Then there are those who say, if guilty, "take your medicine." The theory is this: FAA inspectors do have some latitude in recommending sanctions, and a cooperative spirit can go a long way in securing a 30-day suspension rather than 90 days.

"Re-examination. When hangar talk turns to "the 709 ride," this is it. Federal law (49 CFR Section 44709) allows the FAA to re-examine a pilot at any time provided that there are reasonable grounds. Two common circumstances resulting in a Section 44709 checkride are accidents and minor violations of the federal aviation regulations.


The investigating inspector will notify the pilot by certified mail, explain that a re-examination is justified based on a particular incident, and specify what procedures and maneuvers will be evaluated. The aviator is requested to contact the FSDO to schedule an appointment. If the pilot does not comply, the FAA attorneys will take action and suspend the pilot's certificate until the re-examination is passed.

If offered a 709 ride, sage advice is to take it -- and get some instruction prior to the scheduled checkride. It might even be wise to suggest a retest in lieu of any other action. A re-examination is not technically an enforcement action and, therefore, will not show up in the airman's file. Certificate action. The most commonly used action against general aviation pilots is a procedure in which the FAA seeks to suspend or revoke a certificate for operational violations of flight rules or whenever a violation reveals a lack of technical proficiency or qualification that is so serious that an administrative action or re-examination is deemed inappropriate. In some extreme circumstances, the FAA may seek emergency revocation of the pilot certificate without the benefit of prior due process. "

Good luck,

Jim

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks for the research Jim. I have not been ask because of anything I did.
I am among several(many?) that are going to have to do the same. This is a result of CFI's actions. As I posted, I have no problem taking the ride, just don't have a plane to do it in.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Thanks for the research Jim. I have not been ask because of anything I did.
I am among several(many?) that are going to have to do the same. This is a result of CFI's actions. As I posted, I have no problem taking the ride, just don't have a plane to do it in.

Wouldn't it be good to be more specific, for the benefit of all, about these CFI actions ?

 

[Unregistered]

Wouldn't it be good to be more specific, for the benefit of all, about these CFI actions ?

Endorsing log books/8710 with expired CFI ticket (couple of years!)

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Endorsing log books/8710 with expired CFI ticket (couple of years!)

Whoa, That's really despicable. It's amazing that someone could do that, and embarrassing to the rest of us. I guess it's good to check everyone's credentials and currency, both ways. What a pain in the neck.

Best of luck resolving this and I don't think you'll find the 709 ride to be very difficult.

 

[gismo]

That is the prob. I recently relocated several states away from where i was flying. There it would not be a problem, 8 pilots "leased " an a/c forming a
flying club of sorts/

I have flown the "typical" trainers:
c150
c152
C172
c172r
PA12
PA28-140
PA28-180
R-22 (helo)

Seems to me you have a few choices. If you aren't currently flying, you might be able to convince the FSDO to wait until you gain access to a plane or two in your new location, but I suspect you might have to surrender your certificate until then. If you start shopping around you ought to be able to find an FBO that will serve you for future rentals so the checkout won't be "wasted". Even if you end up having to do a checkout just for the 709 ride, you could have the CFI put you through a mock checkride so you know you're well prepared for the examiner.

 

[Dean]

Sorry to hear about your predicament, but if I were you, I would also consult an attorney about the CFI, you may be entitled to some restitution for the expense of the 709 check ride.

 

[Unregistered]

Sorry to hear about your predicament, but if I were you, I would also consult an attorney about the CFI, you may be entitled to some restitution for the expense of the 709 check ride.

Yea Dean, an attorney might be needed. For me ,after I kick his ass. I am not the type to get lawyers involved in this kind of things. The code of the West still lives!


Talked w/ FBO this evening that might be more accommodating. The drive is going to suck, about 65 miles.

 

[poadeleted20]

If requested to submit to a "709" checkride what are my options?

In most cases, to comply or have your certificate yanked. This is usually stated in the notification letter.

In your case, it appears that this is a situation not of your own making, so the FAA is likely to give you whatever breaks they can, but the fact is that right now you hold a ticket or privileges that by the book you should not (i.e., the required "instruction" you received was not legal since the person who signed your log was not an "authorized instructor"). One assumes from the bits and pieces of the story you've shared that you have never done anything yourself to draw their attention, but rather that they caught up with this unlicensed individual and are tracking down his students. If so, they're not "after" you, but simply following procedure when they find that people have certificates or endorsements they should not. One example of similar cases in the past involved a DPE who was doing improper practical tests -- the FAA tracked down and re-examined over 100 pilots.

In any event, if you "surrender" your certificate (the term "surrender" has a very specific legal meaning in this context), you can't just have it handed back later -- it will be as though you never had it, and you will have to do the knowledge and practical tests over to get a new one, although any legally-acquired aeronautical experience in your log will still count. So if you can't do the 709 ride in the time frame they want, better to work out some sort of deal in which you agree not to exercise any improperly-granted privileges until you can do the 709 ride they want. And that's where a good aviation attorney comes in.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yea Dean, an attorney might be needed. For me ,after I kick his ass. I am not the type to get lawyers involved in this kind of things. The code of the West still lives!

If you really want to "kick his ass," use the most effective weapon you can -- a lawyer. It certainly sounds like you have grounds for both a lawsuit for damages, and possible criminal fraud charges, too. Even if he doesn't have much in the way of assets, you can make his life pretty miserable at no legal risk to yourself.

Talked w/ FBO this evening that might be more accommodating. The drive is going to suck, about 65 miles.

That abovementioned lawyer may be able to figure a way to make that non-instructor pay for it all, so keep your receipts.

 

[Unregistered]

I. Even if he doesn't have much in the way of assets, you can make his life pretty miserable at no legal risk to yourself.


That abovementioned lawyer may be able to figure a way to make that non-instructor pay for it all, so keep your receipts.

It might sound like a good idea, but this guy is judgement proof. Had his plane reposed, kicked off the field for non payment,etc. and has no assets. While it might give me some satisfaction, a lawsuit would only cost ME money.
. Also I believe there will be a lot of people in the same boat as me so I doubt that I would get any reimbursement.

Relax, I will not be kicking his ass, first he is hundreds of miles away, probably skipped town by now
Second maybe twenty-five years ago a can of whup-ass would be opened,
but my old arthritic hand might have a hard time opening that can now!

I guess I will do the drive, get checked out and rent something I will not be flying again and comply. A very expensive lesson learned indeed.

Note to self:: Never again will any one put thier signature in MY logbook
until I verify their credentials.

 

[Dean]

You said that there were several pilots involved, so all of you get together and go after him as a group. Share the cost of the attorney, even if you don't get a dime from him now, a judgement will be placed on any assets he gets in the future.

 

[Unregistered]

You said that there were several pilots involved, so all of you get together and go after him as a group. Share the cost of the attorney, even if you don't get a dime from him now, a judgement will be placed on any assets he gets in the future.

Dean, this suggestion SOUNDS good, but do you really think this kind of person will ever amount to any thing? Much less, acquire the unprotected assets to satisfy any judgement against him? Don't Judgements have to be renewed periodically? I can see it now, " Hey sis, can I put my plane in your name? that way all those people I screwed over can not take it from me.

In this case, don't believe that a suit would do ME any good.

 

[poadeleted3]

While a lawsuit probably wouldn't be worthwhile for you, you and apparently a bunch of others certainly sound like you were defrauded. You may be able to get a prosecutor interested in a criminal case.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

While a lawsuit probably wouldn't be worthwhile for you, you and apparently a bunch of others certainly sound like you were defrauded. You may be able to get a prosecutor interested in a criminal case.

Maybe a bored prosecutor Joe, but I hear they are so tied up with direct physical injury crimes they sniff at anything else. "yeah we'll get right on it"

 

[Unregistered]

While a lawsuit probably wouldn't be worthwhile for you, you and apparently a bunch of others certainly sound like you were defrauded. You may be able to get a prosecutor interested in a criminal case.

If I had the time and energy and was local, perhaps I might persue this,
I have decided to chalk it up to learning a lesson (expensive one at that)
If I can locate this chump maybe some pizza's might show up at his house, or a tow truck to take the car to the dealer for repairs, or maybe a call girl or two one sat night or a letter in the mail from some lab informing him he has a STD
better yet leave the news on the answer machine for the wife to hear, or
Dont have the time nor energy to do any of this but it is ammusing to think about.

 

[bbchien]

If I had the time and energy and was local, perhaps I might persue this,
I have decided to chalk it up to learning a lesson (expensive one at that)
If I can locate this chump maybe some pizza's might show up at his house, or a tow truck to take the car to the dealer for repairs, or maybe a call girl or two one sat night or a letter in the mail from some lab informing him he has a STD
better yet leave the news on the answer machine for the wife to hear, or
Dont have the time nor energy to do any of this but it is ammusing to think about.

Send the IRS a form 1099 in his name, with his SSN and the exact amount you paid this guy. The IRS always gets their man.

 

[Unregistered]

Send the IRS a for 1099 in his name, with his SSN and the exact amount you paid this guy. The IRS always gets their man.

BINGO!!!Wish I thought of that one,This I can do, Sister just happens to work with IRS.THANKS bbchien

 

[AdamZ]

Actually Joe's idea isn't all that bad. It might be a bit of a pain but it the local district attorney or State Attorney General may be interested. While some prosecutors may not be interested Just as many District Attorneys may be interested. The plus side if criminal prosecution is that if convicted the bogus CFI will probably be required to make restitution. Despite the fact that he may be judgment proof his failure to make restitution could be a violation of any probation he may be placed on.

That said I can totally understand your desire to just put this behind you. It stinks what this guy did you. Just curious was this guy a solo CFI or was he associated with an FBO or flight school? If so I would think they are responsible to ensure their instructors are all current.

 

[poadeleted20]

Relax, I will not be kicking his ass, first he is hundreds of miles away, probably skipped town by now
Second maybe twenty-five years ago a can of whup-ass would be opened,
but my old arthritic hand might have a hard time opening that can now!

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was." - Toby Keith (http://www.lyriczz.com/lyriczz.php?songid=17330)

 

[Unregistered]

That said I can totally understand your desire to just put this behind you. It stinks what this guy did you. Just curious was this guy a solo CFI or was he associated with an FBO or flight school? If so I would think they are responsible to ensure their instructors are all current.

He operated out of a "shack" next to one of the hangers on the field. Independant of any one that I am aware of.

 

[tomlatta]

I wonder what the FAA itself has planned or is likely to do in the way of enforcement against the "expired" CFI.

Tom

 

[poadeleted20]

I wonder what the FAA itself has planned or is likely to do in the way of enforcement against the "expired" CFI.

I'm not sure you can revoke an expired ticket or even require a 709 ride of the holder of an expired ticket (no privileges to suspend), and for individual pilots, they usually save civil penalties for deliberate repeat offenders whose licenses have already been revoked. However, an expired CFI ticket may only be renewed by a practical test, and I think the FAA will have doozy of a ride waiting for this cat if he ever decides to reinstate it. If this person holds an ATP, it's possible they'll go after that on the "good moral character" clause, but I'm not sure they can do much about a commercial certificate in this case.

 

[tomlatta]

Saw something today in Sport Pilot Encyclopedia, 2nd Q 2005, by FAAEZTEST, by the way a good usable source for the knowledge test, multi-paged printed on newsprint. The quote follows: "Flight Instructor Pleads Guilty for Falsely Claiming to Hold Valid FAA Certificate February 10, 2005 Douglas Lee Pavelka pled guilty in U.S. District Court in Dayton, OH to a criminal charge of falsifying an 'Instructor's Recommendation' which indicated that his Flight Instructor Certificate was valid. Pavelka admitted to altering the expiration dates on his FAA-issued 'Flight Instructor Certificate' and 'Medical Certificate' while recommending certification for 34 FAA pilot licenses which are, therefore, subject to revocation...Pavelka's sentencing is scheduled for Maay 13, 2005."

Sounds pretty familiar to 44709's account.

 

[ScottM]

This type of unethical behaviour is, unfortunetly, not too uncommon. At our airport I jist heard that one of the CFIs was fired for letting is certificate expire yet still offering and giving instruction. I don't know if he signed off anyone for a checkride while in that state. But he did have the nerve to call up the airport/FBO manager asking for back pay. She was overheard telling him that there was no way he would get that back pay considering that the flight school had to refund his students money and give them additional instruction.

 

[ErikU]

At very least you should ask for your money back!!