430 to 430w question

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onwards

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onwards
I'm sure somebody - if not everybody - here can answer this, but I can't: say one has a VFR plane with a 430 installed. Would upgrading the 430 to a 430W make the plane IFR?
 
Are you wanting to certify the aircraft as an IFR platform? Or change the GPS unit to be allowed to use in the IFR environment?
 
onwards said:
I'm sure somebody - if not everybody - here can answer this, but I can't: say one has a VFR plane with a 430 installed. Would upgrading the 430 to a 430W make the plane IFR?
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To be IFR it just needs to meet the requirements of 91.205. The WAAS capability isn't a requirement, but would add additional approach capabilities.
 
A straight 430 is an IFR-approved GPS. The install being approved for IFR is another matter.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Are you wanting to certify the aircraft as an IFR platform? Or change the GPS unit to be allowed to use in the IFR environment?
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Hmm. I guess I'm not sure about the difference.

Right now the plane has a placard saying "approved for day/night VFR only". It has a non-WAAS 430 installed. I guess what it boils down to is that I am (naively) wondering if, by upgrading the Garmin, that placard can be removed.
 
Not a stupid question.

What airplane is this? If it is a common aircraft like a 182, it should not be too hard to get the airplane certified for IFR. A standard 430 is approved for enroute nav and approaches, but it can't give vertical guidance so you won't be flying any LPV approaches. If you fly a lot, to airports without ILS systems, you'll want this capability.

The placard is there for one (or more) of these reasons.

The instruments are all IFR approved and working, but the pitot/static inspection is out of date.

The 430 was not installed in an IFR approved manner. Why, I have no idea but i'd guess it would take a shop around 2-4 hours to inspect the installation, correct anything that might be amiss and sign it off for IFR use.

One or more of the instruments are not approved for IFR use. I'm not sure about this but I suspect that there might be instruments on the market that are cheaper because they are certified for VFR only.
 
onwards said:
Hmm. I guess I'm not sure about the difference.

Right now the plane has a placard saying "approved for day/night VFR only". It has a non-WAAS 430 installed. I guess what it boils down to is that I am (naively) wondering if, by upgrading the Garmin, that placard can be removed.
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Certifying an airplane for IFR is not dependent on the Garmin. There's a specific list of instruments required for IFR as well as the pitot-static test usually performed when you have the encoder/transponder test done every 2 years.
 
dell30rb said:
The 430 was not installed in an IFR approved manner. Why, I have no idea but i'd guess it would take a shop around 2-4 hours to inspect the installation, correct anything that might be amiss and sign it off for IFR use
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Oh! so you don't need a 430w for IFR, a regular 430 would work if the plane was IFR certified?
 
onwards said:
Oh! so you don't need a 430w for IFR, a regular 430 would work if the plane was IFR certified?
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Absolutely not. The 430 does IFR en route and approach. But, it is more limited because of RAIM requirements (a good CFI should be able to take you through all that) and you won't have LPV, or LNAV/VNAV minimums available to you with a 430.
 
onwards said:
Oh! so you don't need a 430w for IFR, a regular 430 would work if the plane was IFR certified?
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Sort of.

As Ted said in post #5, "A straight 430 is an IFR-approved GPS. The install being approved for IFR is another matter."

Meaning that the aircraft could have a valid IFR certification, but the GNS430(vanilla) will still require the "VFR Use Only" placard.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Sort of.

As Ted said in post #5, "A straight 430 is an IFR-approved GPS. The install being approved for IFR is another matter."

Meaning that the aircraft could have a valid IFR certification, but the GNS430(vanilla) will still require the "VFR Use Only" placard.
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*forehead slap*

NOW I vividly remember why I stopped IFR training - there was something about information overload and feeling stupid.
 
onwards said:
*forehead slap*

NOW I vividly remember why I stopped IFR training - there was something about information overload and feeling stupid.
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Not to worry. You're just validating that old phrase "license to learn" when the DPE handed you your pilot's certificate.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A straight 430 is an IFR-approved GPS. The install being approved for IFR is another matter.
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It might be more accurate to say it's an IFR-approvable GPS. There is an installation, testing, and approval process which must be complied with in order to have the unit approved for IFR use. However, I've only seen one or two 430's which hadn't been through that process, and thus were limited to VFR use. So, if the plane has a 430 (WAAS or otherwise), odds are the 430 is approved for IFR use.

Now, beyond that, there are other requirements before you can fly that plane IFR. In addition to all the things you need for legal VFR operations, you must have all the equipment listed in 91.205(d), although the 430 fills the nav/comm requirement all by itself. You also must have a current altimeter/static system check IAW 91.411, and if the 430 is non-WAAS, a current VOR check IAW 91.171.
 
onwards said:
I'm sure somebody - if not everybody - here can answer this, but I can't: say one has a VFR plane with a 430 installed. Would upgrading the 430 to a 430W make the plane IFR?
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Only if you do the IFR certification which you can do without upgrading to a 430W.
 
FWIW - if you do get whatever is holding it back from being IFR resolved a 430 makes a fine GPS for IFR operations. I still have yet to ever run into a situation where having a 430W would make the difference between making it to my destination or not making it.

I did once come close -- cruising along at MDA in solid IMC -- and I thought today is the day that WAAS would have gotten me into this airport. Then suddenly we just broke out and there was the airport.
 
To install a GNS430 for VFR is a relatively simple task. To obtain approval for the installation to meet IFR requirements means that the installation must meet certain criteria. These criteria are spelled out in AC 20-138. Several things must be true. You must have a CDI that interfaces to the GNS430. Either the location of the GNS430 must be in the primary viewing area of the pilot (+/- 15 degrees measured from the pilot's eye location to the center of your 6 pack of instruments, or annunciators need to be installed that are in the pilot's primary view. Usually the GPS should be hooked up to a Baro Altimeter source such as the encoder that most likely is also attached to your transponder. You then must have an AFMS prepared from the sample that is provided by Garmin to match your installation details and get it approved via a field approval process using a 337. A ground test must also be performed.

In some cases, the GNS430 meets all of the requirements except obtaining the AFMS. This is a paperwork task, and a shop will charge you for a few hours of work to prepare and obtain the FAA approval. In other cases, the owner who had the unit installed didn't want to have other components installed, like a compatible CDI (around $1800 or an annunciator $600 to $1000) or pay for the labor charges to hookup of whatever is required. Depending on the details of your VFR installation this could be a few hundred bucks or a few thousand.
 
I'd agree with Jesse that WAAS typically won't make the different between getting in and not. Two features I consider to be real nice-to-haves are the terrain awareness and having a glide slope even on non-precision GPS approaches. Helps to make for a smoother approach.

Ron, I think you're trying to pick the fly turds out of the pepper. I pointed out the GPS install must be approved for the plane to be IFR legal. ;)
 
onwards said:
Hmm. I guess I'm not sure about the difference.

Right now the plane has a placard saying "approved for day/night VFR only". It has a non-WAAS 430 installed. I guess what it boils down to is that I am (naively) wondering if, by upgrading the Garmin, that placard can be removed.
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The GPS is not the reason for that placard. If the GPS were not IFR-approved, the placard would read "GPS APPROVED FOR VFR ONLY." For the placard you have, there must be some other underlying issue, such as no attitude indicator or something like that. One would have to do more research into the installed equipment and maintenance records to know for sure. However, what you might do is take the list of required equipment for IFR in 91.205(d) and check it off one by one against what is installed in the airplane. My guess is you'll find something on that list which isn't in the plane.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The GPS is not the reason for that placard. If the GPS were not IFR-approved, the placard would read "GPS APPROVED FOR VFR ONLY." For the placard you have, there must be some other underlying issue, such as no attitude indicator or something like that. One would have to do more research into the installed equipment and maintenance records to know for sure. However, what you might do is take the list of required equipment for IFR in 91.205(d) and check it off one by one against what is installed in the airplane. My guess is you'll find something on that list which isn't in the plane.
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Why do you think that? What's the difference in saying Approved Day / Night VFR only and Approved VFR Only? Why would the attitude indicator be missing? If you don't have all the bits for an IFR installation and you don't go through the entire installation certification procedure on the 430 radio, that more than sufficient.
 
Henning said:
Why do you think that?
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Because that placard does not read the way the Advisory Circular and Garmin installation manual say a placard for VFR-only installation of a GPS should read. It does, however, read exactly the way the FAA guidance says it should either for an aircraft not approved for IFR under its type certificate (which would not apply to a Cherokee Six) or for one equipped per 91.205(c) but not 91.205(d). I suppose it's possible that the shop which did the 430 install doesn't know what they're doing and installed the wrong placard, but in that case, I'd have more serious concerns than the placard.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because that placard does not read the way the Advisory Circular and Garmin installation manual say a placard for VFR-only installation of a GPS should read. It does, however, read exactly the way the FAA guidance says it should either for an aircraft not approved for IFR under its type certificate (which would not apply to a Cherokee Six) or for one equipped per 91.205(c) but not 91.205(d). I suppose it's possible that the shop which did the 430 install doesn't know what they're doing and installed the wrong placard, but in that case, I'd have more serious concerns than the placard.
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I'd put my money on the wrong placquard.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'll let you know after I see that placard. But if I take that bet at that point, I'll lay a c-note on it and you'll be able to take any or all of that.
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Nah, this is a ten spot bet at best. I don't care about seeing the placquard wording, I care about if the GPS is the real issue or another instrument. It could also be very possible that the FBO doesn't keep up with the IFR checks, though on a Cherokee Six that would raise even more questions about them.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'll let you know after I see that placard. But if I take that bet at that point, I'll lay a c-note on it and you'll be able to take any or all of that.
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How do I attach an image?
 
I'm with Henning.
 
onwards said:
Trying to answer my own question, let's see if this works.

View attachment 28028
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What Ron says about the placquard is correct, the only question is if the correct placquard is in use. They may have had the incorrect one around or got the wrong one sent when they added it, because it's not a factory placquard.
 
I can now clarify, because I just got an answer:

"Yes, there should be no problem meeting IFR equipment requirements for the plane; primarily an IFR data card for the Garrmin 430. Plus the usual checks for pitot-static system, VOR OBS, and transponder."

Further clarified that it simply had not gone through the regular checks for several years.

Thanks all for the educational responses, while it was a dumb question I got to learn several new things!
 
onwards said:
Thanks all for the educational responses, while it was a dumb question I got to learn several new things!
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Like how betting gets started on a pilot forum?? :dunno: :D

Good luck with your IFR! The 430 is a great box to have in any airplane.
 
Henning said:
Keep reading and you'll see I was correct.
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Ummm, no (seems it has to do with being out of 91.411 certification not lack of IFR cert on the GPS -- see post#32), but since you're not taking the bet, you aren't putting your money where your mouth is, and I'm OK with that. :bye:
 
Ron Levy said:
Ummm, no (seems it has to do with being out of 91.411 certification not lack of IFR cert on the GPS -- see post#32), but since you're not taking the bet, you aren't putting your money where your mouth is, and I'm OK with that. :bye:
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"Yes, there should be no problem meeting IFR equipment requirements for the plane; primarily an IFR data card for the Garrmin 430. Plus the usual checks for pitot-static system, VOR OBS, and transponder."
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I don't see where any instruments are missing....
For the placard you have, there must be some other underlying issue, such as no attitude indicator or something like that.
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If you want to send me $10, feel free, PayPal it to caphenning@yahoo.com
 
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