3rd Class SI stuck in HIMS

Ultralight said:
Yes that is understood, theres no where on any of these forums where anybody talks about how they are successful basic med that went through the 3rd class si and let it expire. I am just trying to hear from one of those guys, i have seen your response to many questions on this forum and it almost always comes off narcissistic. Its not a perfect world and the docs opinion is not what is asked. Im trying to reach bigshark and see if he is a current basic med pilot that is all.
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You only have three posts, so perhaps you need a bit of education. Bruce Chien is one of the top AMEs in the country when it comes to helping pilots with difficult medical/legal situations. All of us - including you - are lucky that he takes the time to share his expertise and knowledge. To call him narcissistic because he's an expert and shares his expertise is completely unfair, unreasonable, and ill-informed. As Abraham Lincoln once said, "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
 
By the way, it appears that I incorrectly corrected a typo in post #67. That may have been where the "2021" came from. :redface:
 
Ultralight said:
Yes that is understood, theres no where on any of these forums where anybody talks about how they are successful basic med that went through the 3rd class si and let it expire. I am just trying to hear from one of those guys, i have seen your response to many questions on this forum and it almost always comes off narcissistic. Its not a perfect world and the docs opinion is not what is asked. Im trying to reach bigshark and see if he is a current basic med pilot that is all.
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Whoa… bigshark hasn’t been on the forum in almost a year, but might be in touch with Bruce who kindly answered your question knowing bigshark isn’t likely to reply. A narcissist is someone who falsely believes he is superior. Bruce actually is superior, when it comes to this subject.
 
Ultralight said:
... Im trying to reach bigshark and see if he is a current basic med pilot that is all.
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Bases on the "Last Activity" date in his profile, it looks like it has been three months since BigShark has been here.
 
PaulS said:
I'm scratching my head here with your response to Dr Chien. He already answered your question. Bigshark can't do Basic Med until February 28. So NO he does not have basic med yet.

Your snark is unnecessary, knock it off.
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Feb 28 of 2021 this is a year ago almost he should have been on basic med 11 months by now, read before ur cord gets pulled.
 
PaulS said:
I'm scratching my head here with your response to Dr Chien. He already answered your question. Bigshark can't do Basic Med until February 28. So NO he does not have basic med yet.
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well, doc said he could do basic med any time, just has to comply with si until it’s expiration. Seems a fair question if he’s actually done that.

Don’t see where doc said he can’t until feb 28, 2022.
 
Tools said:
well, doc said he could do basic med any time, just has to comply with si until it’s expiration. Seems a fair question if he’s actually done that.

Don’t see where doc said he can’t until feb 28, 2022.
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Yup, he did say that, but it's kind of a moot point, the guy is still under the SI. No need for ultralight to get ****y and name call the doc though.
 
Tools said:
...Don’t see where doc said he can’t until feb 28, 2022.
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It was here:

bbchien said:
He has to comply through 02/28/2022 and then he can do basic without jeopardy.

he can get a Basic anytime but he has to comply with the letter through the last day of Feb…..
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Looking back through the thread, there is a lot of confusion about dates, but the above is Dr. Chien's most recent word on the subject.
 
To be clear, you need to wait till the Medical expires, not the SI.
 
You can do basic med, but you have to comply with your SI until your medical expires or else they'll revoke it. Once you're past the expiration date, there's nothing to revoke. They can cancel the SI letter but all that does is stop further issuances.

Like I said, I can almost guarantee that if he got a SI, he has a "not valid for any class after MM/YY" restriction on it. THat's the date that he no longer has to deal with CAMI.
 
Half Fast said:
Why?

You can have a Medical and Basic at the same time. Once the SI expires, you no longer have to comply with it's terms.
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Correct, My reference was to a medical that expires in six months, and an SI valid for 5 years... You can get basic med anytime, I guess I didn't add to clarity.
 
Mileage said:
When you let your third class medical expire, did you have an SI letter still in force?
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What do you mean by “in force?” I had an SI medical that was good for one year. I got Basic Med within a week or two of getting the medical, then simply did not renew the medical the following year.

How can an SI be “in force” beyond the expiration date of the medical?
 
Half Fast said:
What do you mean by “in force?” I had an SI medical that was good for one year. I got Basic Med within a week or two of getting the medical, then simply did not renew the medical the following year.

How can an SI be “in force” beyond the expiration date of the medical?
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Ah. I have an authorization that lasts five years allowing my AME to issue a 3rd class medical certificate valid for six months at a time. My AME is suggesting that I can let my current medical expire (I've been following the authorization for two years) and then just go on basic med regardless of the fact that the authorization lasts for several more years. What i gather in this thread is that the authorization only applies to medical certificates and the argument in this thread is that as long as I am eligible for basic med - and as I read the regs I now am eligible - then I am free to bypass the remainder of the authorization by declining to get a third class medical which would require I follow the authorization. Of course, i have to maintain my sobriety and my medical fitness for flying etc. What i am looking for is someone with an active authorization for special issuance who has let their 3rd class medical expire and gone basic med
 
Half Fast: If under a HIMS SI the relationship is different. The SI has to be served out to the end of the six month certificate B4 being abandoned…..
 
bbchien said:
Half Fast: If under a HIMS SI the relationship is different. The SI has to be served out to the end of the six month certificate B4 being abandoned…..
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I'm in HIMS. Can you recommend an expert - a lawyer, probably - who can look at my specific situation and give a second opinion to substantiate what my HIMS AME is suggesting (which is that having been issued several six month special issuance 3rd class medicals under a 5 year authorization, I am free to go to basic med now that I am otherwise eligible despite the fact that the authorization still has a few years to run to completion)?

With 14 years of sobriety under my belt, I'm grateful the HIMS program is letting me fly as a private pilot but it does seem onerous to have to test for the rest of my life
 
Mileage said:
I'm in HIMS. Can you recommend an expert - a lawyer, probably - who can look at my specific situation and give a second opinion to substantiate what my HIMS AME is suggesting (which is that having been issued several six month special issuance 3rd class medicals under a 5 year authorization, I am free to go to basic med now that I am otherwise eligible despite the fact that the authorization still has a few years to run to completion)?
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@bbchien IS the expert on this.
 
Mileage said:
I'm in HIMS. Can you recommend an expert - a lawyer, probably - who can look at my specific situation and give a second opinion to substantiate what my HIMS AME is suggesting (which is that having been issued several six month special issuance 3rd class medicals under a 5 year authorization, I am free to go to basic med now that I am otherwise eligible despite the fact that the authorization still has a few years to run to completion)?

With 14 years of sobriety under my belt, I'm grateful the HIMS program is letting me fly as a private pilot but it does seem onerous to have to test for the rest of my life
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Same boat here, except with 22 years sobriety (if I make it to March!). I bailed on my 3rd class just this month (current medical expires 12/31/22) and hopped to Basic Med upon the urging of my HIMS AME who wasn't hopeful that I'd ever get issued a 3rd class without testing restrictions.
 
Would love to hear how it turns out! I was thinking perhaps the safest route is to wait for the SI Authorization AND the SI medical to expire and then go Basic Med.
 
Mileage said:
Would love to hear how it turns out! I was thinking perhaps the safest route is to wait for the SI Authorization AND the SI medical to expire and then go Basic Med.
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It's already been done. I haven't had a chance to fly on it yet because of poor weather in SW MT.

My SI doesn't expire until 2026-06-30. The last time I talked to my HIMS AME (who will remain as such until the end of time, they die, or I go through the hassle of getting a new one), I asked them how I"d re-up my medical to 3rd class (or even 2nd) if I wanted to. "Let me know, and start up the signed AA logs, 14-in-12 monitoring, and quarterly check-ins with me."
 
bbchien said:
Half Fast: If under a HIMS SI the relationship is different. The SI has to be served out to the end of the six month certificate B4 being abandoned…..
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If the medical expires before the SI expires, do SI-related actions have to be continued? Don’t they only have to be done while the medical is active?

It seems to me that once the medical expires, Basic Med should be available. An expired medical can’t be revoked, so eligibility for Basic would be maintained.

Am I missing something?
 
Half Fast said:
If the medical expires before the SI expires, do SI-related actions have to be continued? Don’t they only have to be done while the medical is active?

It seems to me that once the medical expires, Basic Med should be available. An expired medical can’t be revoked, so eligibility for Basic would be
Am I missing something?
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I believe you are correct. You must abide by the terms of the SI while the current medical is valid. After that you are free to go Basic Med
 
Both of you fellows- again you serve out the full term of your current certificate (all the monitoring, (the psychiatrist and psychologist, Zoom meetings with your HIMS AME etc. if applicable), through the date of "not valid for any class after __/__/____". Then and only then, are you are free to go.

The duration date of the SI auth has nothing to do with it. At the point I describe abouve your CERTIFICATE is expired. The agency cannot deny a pilot without a certificate and without an application.

Just know that if you ever have to get a 3rd again (neurologic, cardiac or a new DUI condition, you will have to reapply all over again. And the DMV registry goes to FAA, so if the latter, they wil know and you'll get the "basic Med warning letter" (certified mail).
 

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bbchien said:
Both of you fellows- again you serve out the full term of your current certificate (all the monitoring, (the psychiatrist and psychologist, Zoom meetings with your HIMS AME etc. if applicable), through the date of "not valid for any class after __/__/____". Then and only then, are you are free to go.

The duration date of the SI auth has nothing to do with it. At the point I describe abouve your CERTIFICATE is expired. The agency cannot deny a pilot without a certificate and without an application.

Just know that if you ever have to get a 3rd again (neurologic, cardiac or a new DUI condition, you will have to reapply all over again. And teh DMV registry geost to FAA, so if the latter, they wil know and you'll get the "basic Med warning letter" (certified mail).
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Very helpful, thank you.

So if I go on basic med but then develop some completely new thing requiring a special issuance, I presumably would have to get that condition cleared AND provide the documentation to get cleared again for substance dependence, or would I just have to deal with the new issue? Would the fact that I had "abandoned" the conditions of the SI Authorization be held against me in that event?
 
Half Fast said:
Why?

You can have a Medical and Basic at the same time. Once the SI expires, you no longer have to comply with it's terms.
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Because the SI is good for longer than the medical. You typically get several renewals. Basic med doesn't care when the SI renews. He just needs to not have his last medical CERTIFICATE revoked which means he has to play the HIMS game until that expires. He can do his basic med exam/course now and as soon as the medical expires he can ignore Joklahoma City.
 
Mileage said:
Very helpful, thank you.

So if I go on basic med but then develop some completely new thing requiring a special issuance, I presumably would have to get that condition cleared AND provide the documentation to get cleared again for substance dependence, or would I just have to deal with the new issue? Would the fact that I had "abandoned" the conditions of the SI Authorization be held against me in that event?
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In that case, you have to do EVERYTHING. You should be going to AA, you would need to objectively re-verify sobirety (urinesx 6 monhts) and would need the HIMS psychiatrist. The alternative is to get to stepdown.

True recovery is very very patient......it is NOT the same as "just" sobriety.
 
bbchien said:
In that case, you have to do EVERYTHING. You should be going to AA, you would need to objectively re-verify sobirety (urinesx 6 monhts) and would need the HIMS psychiatrist. The alternative is to get to stepdown.

True recovery is very very patient......it is NOT the same as "just" sobriety.
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Thank you. I have long term sobriety and am active in AA, so I would have no concern with the documentation and the psychiatrist, but would a new cog screen/neuro-psychological exam also be required?
 
Mileage said:
Thank you. I have long term sobriety and am active in AA, so I would have no concern with the documentation and the psychiatrist, but would a new cog screen/neuro-psychological exam also be required?
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It depends on the strength of your proof of continuing sobriety.

With continued negative urine test urines, no on the neuropscyhologist.
Anything less.....yes, I would not send a candidate up without a current NeuroPsychological.

You all know about stepdown, right?
 
Mileage said:
Very helpful, thank you.

So if I go on basic med but then develop some completely new thing requiring a special issuance, I presumably would have to get that condition cleared AND provide the documentation to get cleared again for substance dependence, or would I just have to deal with the new issue? Would the fact that I had "abandoned" the conditions of the SI Authorization be held against me in that event?
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My understanding is that the "completely new thing" would not require you to get a new FAA medical certificate unless it was one of the three conditions listed in the BasicMed regulations as requiring a one-time SI.

Of course, you also have to comply with 61.53(c).
 
bbchien said:
It depends on the strength of your proof of continuing sobriety.

With continued negative urine test urines, no on the neuropscyhologist.
Anything less.....yes, I would not send a candidate up without a current NeuroPsychological.

You all know about stepdown, right?
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Fwiw, to date, the FAA has not been responsive to my AME's request for stepdown.

Is it possible to get a paid one-time consult with you? I'm trying the weigh the pros and cons of maintaining my 3rd Class vs going basic med but a lot hinges on what would happen if I developed, say, a cardiac issue down the road such that I would need a new SI for that.
 
Nobody tells a pilot that they’ve “successfully gone Basic Med.” The pilot’s experience with starting BasicMed is not like that with getting a medical certificate. Only in the latter case does someone tell you that you’re successful.
 
Mileage said:
Fwiw, to date, the FAA has not been responsive to my AME's request for stepdown.
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Same here, and my HIMS AME didn't have much hope that CAMI would do anything, either. Thus my impetus for going basic med.
 
bbchien said:
Both of you fellows- again you serve out the full term of your current certificate (all the monitoring, (the psychiatrist and psychologist, Zoom meetings with your HIMS AME etc. if applicable), through the date of "not valid for any class after __/__/____". Then and only then, are you are free to go.

The duration date of the SI auth has nothing to do with it. At the point I describe abouve your CERTIFICATE is expired. The agency cannot deny a pilot without a certificate and without an application.

Just know that if you ever have to get a 3rd again (neurologic, cardiac or a new DUI condition, you will have to reapply all over again. And the DMV registry goes to FAA, so if the latter, they wil know and you'll get the "basic Med warning letter" (certified mail).
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Hi everyone - long time reader/first time poster, may need to go through the HIMS process in the future to qualify medically so am posting anonymously. There is so much confusion on this topic. Thanks Dr. Chien, these posts have been really helpful to me and other pilots.

I talked with AOPA legal (not helpful) and medical (confusing) yesterday for their advice on the HIMS SI -> Basic med situation. Their advice was to get the HIMS SI, do the full 6 year SI and then and only then go to BasicMed. This makes no sense, except we're dealing with the FAA.

She said what has happened "frequently enough that there are court cases about it" is that a pilot complies with everything in the SI, lets their medical expire (therefore there is nothing to revoke), goes to basic med, and then the FAA will move to withdraw the SI, in their opinion making the pilot ineligible for BasicMed. She also had some incorrect information (i.e. for third class to do HIMS you have to do intensive rehab) so this is why it's really important to get actual advice from an experience Lawyer and a Sr. HIMS AME. I'm in the process of doing both.
 
Confused Pilot said:
Hi everyone - long time reader/first time poster, may need to go through the HIMS process in the future to qualify medically so am posting anonymously. There is so much confusion on this topic. Thanks Dr. Chien, these posts have been really helpful to me and other pilots.

I talked with AOPA legal (not helpful) and medical (confusing) yesterday for their advice on the HIMS SI -> Basic med situation. Their advice was to get the HIMS SI, do the full 6 year SI and then and only then go to BasicMed. This makes no sense, except we're dealing with the FAA.

She said what has happened "frequently enough that there are court cases about it" is that a pilot complies with everything in the SI, lets their medical expire (therefore there is nothing to revoke), goes to basic med, and then the FAA will move to withdraw the SI, in their opinion making the pilot ineligible for BasicMed. She also had some incorrect information (i.e. for third class to do HIMS you have to do intensive rehab) so this is why it's really important to get actual advice from an experience Lawyer and a Sr. HIMS AME. I'm in the process of doing both.
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Thank you for this as this seems like the most logical approach to the situation. The regs imply that having an SI authorization withdrawn makes you ineligible for basic med, but what's unknown is whether the FAA "goes after" private pilots who are flying on basic med before their SI authorization expires who are also otherwise in full recovery. Obviously they would have to go after anyone with, say, a DUI.

I would love to hear from private pilots who have gone basic med while their SI authorization is still valid yet who have not had any problems with the FAA OR from pilots who have. It all seems very theoretical without actual cases
 
Confused Pilot said:
I talked with AOPA legal (not helpful) and medical (confusing) yesterday for their advice on the HIMS SI -> Basic med situation. Their advice was to get the HIMS SI, do the full 6 year SI and then and only then go to BasicMed. This makes no sense, except we're dealing with the FAA.
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I'd advise against taking any medical advice from AOPA. Their medical line is not staffed by doctors or anybody else particularly knowledgeable.

If you have no medical, you have to get one first to go basic med. This means getting the SI and complying with it through at least the first "NOT VALID FOR ANY CLASS AFTER" date. If you have a medical but have one of the listed conditions, you have to so the SI as well. An oddity of this is that you likely can continue flying until the FAA tells you YOU DON'T MEET the requirements other than the "WE CAN'T DETERMINE IF YOU MEET" wording.

There's no earthly good reason to keep renewing the medical for the full term of the SI letter unless you want that rather than basic med.
 
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flyingron said:
I'd advise taking any medical advice from AOPA. Their medical line is not staffed by doctors or anybody else particularly knowledgeable.....
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Did you mean advise against taking their advice?
 
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