3rd Class Medical with Past DWI's

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Unregistered, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Will I have an issue getting a 3rd Class Medical with 2 DWI convictions in the past. The most recent DWI was 10+ years ago.
     
  2. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    I'm sure Bruce will chime in soon - in the mean time, I searched for the topic and found this post of his from a previous time the question was asked.

    Also reading from previous posts that if you hit a third one, you're pretty much done...


    http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47489&highlight=dwi

    3rd class, DUI within 5-10-years-
    10 year DL search
    Court papers including the BAC, or if none that is more of a problem
    Substance abuse evaluation in FAA format (not the checkboxes the M.A counselors do for the courts, and not per DSM 4), by a state licensed CADC (Cert. Abuse & Drug Counselor).
    If I were advocating for him I'd want a CBC and a set of liver enzymes.
    Work history- from the employer. We need to know there is no habitual tardiness or absenteeism....

    If the BAC was less than 0.15 the AME can make the call but must be able to defend the call. It the BAC was >=.15, we're talking Substance abuse evaluator (for 2nd and 1st: HIMS psychiatrist), monitoring program, followup evaluation at the end of the year, and two years on "they call you pee".

    OR

    He can just sit it out until the tenth year.
     
  3. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Brian, I think he is indicating the most recent one was MORE than 10 years ago.

    The AME cannot issue this one. He has to clear it with OKC:

    In the case 2> 10 years ago, you need letters from your employer, identible members in the community saying that you are reliable, not late to work, sober, etc. More is better.

    A drivers' license search going back to the begining of time when you were licensed. Multi state if need be, to show these are teh onlyi ones and the last 10 years is clean.

    Court papers not required.

    No CADC eval should be needed.
    I would require an ALT and a CBC to go to bat for the airman.

    BC.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  4. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Thanks for the responses.

    Bruce, what is an ALT? What would the ALT and CBC show?

    How many character reference letters would be needed?

    I know I made some mistakes in my younger years but have turned it around over the past decade or so and would love to pursue flying in the future. I hope to begin flight training in about 18 months, should I wait as long as possible before applying for the medical or is 12+ no different than 10+?

    Thanks
     
  5. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A comment on waiting....

    If you have everything Dr. Bruce says to obtain about your DWI situations, and it's all in order so the past DWI's won't be a show stopper, don't wait too far into your flight training to do your medical. We have encountered lots of airmen who spent many AMU's (Aviation Monetary Unit, equivalent to $1000) in primary training that waited, just to find out that some other medical condition grounded them either for good, or required another 6-inch binder of documentation and lots of time/trouble/expense to be cleared.

    We encourage airmen to get their medical situation figured out as early as possible. So once you're ready to start training, 1) get a clean bill of health from your primary doctor, or 2) get to know fully what the FAA expects of any medical conditions you have and start obtaining the required documentation. The objective is to have all this done BEFORE you present to an AME. And once you do, have everything in order so he or she can issue your certificate while you're in the office.
     
  6. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ALT is a liver enzyme blood test. CBC shows changes to the red cell line that are common with alcohol abuse. If they're negative they help your case.

    I believe in presenting beyond what the agency "barely requires". It takes the uncertainty out of the presentation, and assures success. If your case is good, why hang in the balance?

    When you negotiate with the FAA, do so from a position of strength and total information. Lastly, 10+ is no different than 12+. But two in a lifetime is presumptive repetitive abuse. You have to show that it is no longer so.

    Do it any way you can.

    Lastly, use a HIMS AME- the drug and alcohol AMEs. There are about 100+ of us. We conduct the discussions and pretty well know what they're thinkin.....
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  7. Rational Recovery

    Rational Recovery Pre-Flight

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    If you pursue this please feel free to PM me and let me know what they do to you. I am currently pursuing an alternative option to the 12 steps to get into my pilot license which has been difficult due to my excessive drinking in college. I am doing Rational Recovery as a method of permanent abstinence from alcohol.

    If you have not already, I would recommend you stop drinking completely, NOW. With 2 DUIs they very well could have decided you are an alcoholic. If this is the case you will NEVER be able to drink alcohol in any amount ever if you want to pursue your pilot license. You WILL have to go tea-total, the sooner you accept it the better off you'll be. I have found that the Abstinence Commitment Effect (ACE) discovered by Jack Trimpey has helped me cope with the fact that I am banned from alcohol for forever.

    being that your DUIs were 10 years ago it's a tough call... if they were both under 0.15 its hard to say if they will make a diagnosis. However, if one or both was over 0.15, I would cut your losses, accept that you have lost your privilege to drink alcohol and take the free crash course on AVRT at the Rational Recovery website to ensure permanent abstinence from alcohol.

    Keep in mind, alcoholics anonymous is the mainstream program they'll want you to do but I personally did not find it to be sensical or useful, which is why I am doing RR and encourage it for others in my position.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
  8. JohnWF

    JohnWF Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I allowed my 3rd class medical to expire since I now have a qualified LSA and can exercise the privileges of a sport pilot just using my driver's license in lieu of the FAA 3rd class. My hope is that the FAA might approve the AOPA/EAA proposal to eliminate the 3rd class medical for certain types of planes.

    Right now I am going to wait and see how this comes out. I would like to regain my medical however simply because of the limitation of flying at a max of 10,000 ft or 2,000 above terrain, whichever is higher for sport pilot privileges.

    I have no known medical problems...low weight, no disease, no diabetes, no heart problems, new eye exam with 20/20 correction, blood pressures typically 123/60, no alcohol or drug problems or convictions, hearing OK but do occasionally use hearing aids if I will be with people, never been hospitalized, never sick, weight less than when I got out of the Navy in 1950, energetic.etc.

    But there is that gamble when doing the exam; if it goes bad, I'm screwed. What I would like to do is to somehow get a "practice" exam from someone where I don't gamble on being grounded.

    Your suggestions?
     
  9. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Some AMEs will do a consult with you on what would be on the exam prior to you actually applying. Absent any medical history other than hearing aids, I'm not sure what the concern would be.

    If you don't have any DWIs on your record, you really should have started your own thread as it makes no sense in this one.
     
  10. gknoop

    gknoop Filing Flight Plan

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    I need some info. I have past Dui's 1986, 2002, 2013. I expected to have to jump through some hoops but Medical was denied point blank. I have 30 days to appeal, have a call into my AME. If I lose it, I lose it. I still have the opportunity to fly, just not PIC. Any advice is appreciated. I just got the letter Saturday and am in disbelief but acceptance as well.
     
  11. ja_user

    ja_user Cleared for Takeoff

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    3 DUI's over 27 years really shows a historical pattern that isn't yet over. Talk to Dr Bruce, but I don't think you are able to get a medical.

    When you applied, all they could do was give you a yes or no.. Without the help and insight of a HIMS you shouldn't have applied.
     
  12. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    I agree completely. With three in your life, two in the last twelve years, and one only last year, you are pretty much uncertifiable for a long time (that's years, not months), and it's going to be a long and expensive process requiring a great deal of self-discipline to change that. But I still suggest talking to "Dr Bruce" (aka Dr. Bruce Chien, MD, AME) about what you can do to change your life so you can get certified somewhere down the line. You can reach him via either the AOPA Forums or his web site http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com.
     
  13. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I just completed a 4+ month battle to get my third class medical. Just to recant my experience i was initially deferred by the examiner. Next OKC requested the following initially.
    *Full narrative police reports of all prior arrests
    *all court records
    *treatment records
    *a statement from me with regards to my past, present and future alcohol use
    *driving records for the last 10 years
    Next they requested a letter from me describing the specifics of one of my DUIs. Finally they needed 3 letters from responsible members of the community attesting to my sobriety (10+ years).
     
  14. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    Congratulations. Whatever you do, don't add a third.
     
  15. gws

    gws Pre-Flight

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    Thanks to all for this important, open, discussion!
     
  16. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    This has my curiosity. I wasn't aware that AMEs or the FAA did background checks on your criminal history or driving record. Not that there is anything in mine, but I must say it has me wondering. How would they even know??
     
  17. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Question 18v. on the medical certificate application form, 8500-8. A yes answer can require the documentation listed in the 4-month battle unreg post.

    Lying about the past incidents by marking 18v as a "no" can subject you to significant penalties should you be found out during the FAA and/or NTSB investigation when you bent an aircraft or hurt someone.
     
  18. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

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    OK. So it's volunteering the information. That's what I thought it might be. On the one hand, it seems overly intrusive going back so far in life. Being late for work 10 years ago is hardly relevant to your behavior today. On the other hand, my sympathy for DUI is only mildly lower than whale ****.
     
  19. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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  20. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    First, they have access to the National Driver Registry, where DUI's are recorded, and yes, they do routinely check that against the pilot database. Second, if they have reason to look into your history, your signature on the 8500-8 allows them to access all your medical and other records anywhere to verify your statements.
     
  21. deftone

    deftone Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Being late for work is hardly comparable to multiple DUI. Im sure they are only looking for indicators that you can become a risk to yourself and others while PIC.
     
  22. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I was required to volunteer all of the information. I don't feel like OKC did any independent checks. By their own wording a history of alcohol use is not exclusionary. Alcohol dependence is what they are concerned about. After you answer yes to that question on the medical app they are going to make you prove that you aren't currently dependent on alcohol. I feel like the key factor that they look at is length of sobriety. In my experience 10 years was enough. It's just not worth the risk to falsely answer no to the DUI question. You invest so much time and money in this hobby it would suck to have to worry about it all being ripped away. Better to just get all the cards on the table up front.
     
  23. JeffDG

    JeffDG Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Habitual tardiness at work is something that an individual with an alcohol problem would exhibit typically. Showing reliability in such areas is a way to demonstrate lack of dependence. Is it definitive? No. But it is a factor that is considered.
     
  24. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Did you read the bottom of the medical app before you signed it? It specifically tells you they're going to hit up your NDR history.

    DUIs have a pretty nasty history of coming back to haunt people both on medicals and in other places. They don't go away. If you've lied on your application, it's the kiss of death as well as if you failed to make the obligatory report to FAA security if you already had a certificate when it happened.
     
  25. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Sorry to bring up and old thread, but any input would be great

    I am currently in the process of dealing with the FAA to get my class 3 medical.


    I have two DUI's from when i was 18 and 20, the most recent, almost 11 years ago. The issue i see, is that my BAC was quite high on the second >.25

    They dont know the BAC yet, but have asked me to report my driving record for the last 10 years and a statement from myself about my drinking habits, amounts etc. I have been clean and sober for 2+ years and can prove it by members of alcoholics anonymous, but nothing else. I gave up drinking when my daughter was born, and havent looked back.

    What can i expect ? Should i hire an attorney? AOPA?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, i have been working on my PPL and have logged about 15 hours of flight time, and before i dump in too much $$$, i would like to know what chances i have of getting my class 3 medical.

    Thanks!
     
  26. grundleson

    grundleson Filing Flight Plan

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    the most recent post was my own, anyone can feel free to PM me if they have any input they do not wish to share publicly. Thanks again
     
  27. Mason

    Mason Pattern Altitude

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    My guess is that you probably can get a medical with some great effort and proper documentation, but you really need expert advice from someone who does this for a living, Dr. Bruce Chien.

    If it can be done, he can do it. Be totally honest with him and follow his instructions to the letter.
     
  28. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    You WILL get your medical...count on it. But it may be a special issuance. And it may be a year from now.

    Things you have going for you: the time since the last one.

    The things against you: 2 DUIs and a >.25 BAC.

    The latter show what FAA refers to as "alcohol dependence"

    So, they will either say, ok...nice work...clean for more than 10 years, here's your medical. Or they will have you evaluated by a HIMS psych, who will recommend you be followed by a HIMS AME for at least 3 months before you return to flying, with frequent, random alcohol screens, AA, therapy, etc...which could last 1-3 years...that's the worst case scenario. Which is bad, but not insurmountable.

    Don't give up.

    Another idea is to go get your sport license...no medical required. Fly for a few years than get you PPL.
     
  29. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    You want to talk to Bruce Chien. The fact that you were supposedly conscious with a .25 BAC implies a tolerance for alcohol that the FAA is wary of.

    http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/
     
  30. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    i was hardly concious and should have died that night. Its a culmination of bad decisions/police breaking up a party/ and the host of the party MAKING everyone leave.i dont remember anything from that night. It is a horrible nightmare that i have lost sleep over many nights over the years.

    i have sent in a contact to Dr Bruce, so i hope to hear back from him.

    Thanks for your inputs guys!
     
  31. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You should have started your own thread.

    What do you mean "they don't know the BAC yet?" If you had two 10+ year old DUIs other than that, you shouldn't have been deferred. This is what you get for taking a serious medical history to a run-of-the-mill AME. With .25 the AME was required to defer you anyhow, but if he was smart he would have had you obtain all this stuff and submitted it with the original application saving you some time.

    AOPA medical division is completely useless. Been there done that.
    A lawyer is not necessary nor will one particularly help.

    Did they not ask for an evaluation from a recognized substance abuse counsellor (that for all practical purposes is a HIMS AME?).

    Did you send the stuff in yet?

    Your best bet would be to discuss this with a good AME (like Dr. Bruce either over on the AOPA boards or via his website aeromedicaldoc.com). The way you're doing this is likely to waste a lot of time going back and forth between the certification guys in Joklahoma city.
     
  32. grundleson

    grundleson Filing Flight Plan

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    I meant they dont know my BAC yet because my AME didnt require that i dosclose this upon my visit.

    The OKC FAA requested my driving record and on the record it states my BAC for the 2nd DUi on the paperwork. They did not ask for an evaluation for substance abuse.

    Edit to add, i have not sent in my paperwork with my statement.
     
  33. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I was in the same boat.

    So here's how it will most likely go. Regardless of the time since the last DUI, they will see the high BAC, the number of DUIs, bad decision making, etc...and ask you to see a HIMS psychiatrist for a neuropsych evaluation--and the psych will make recommendations to FAA. FAA will then issue you a letter asking you to comply with the HIMS psych. Sucks, but they don't want a crazy guy up there :)

    Timeframe? FAA will request to see the HIMS psych in their next letter. A few weeks from now.
    Go get it done ASAP. Psych will take ~3 weeks to write your report and charge you $2000 to do so. Then send the report to FAA...4 weeks later, FAA will send you a letter describing what they want you to do...may ask for a 3 month eval, then a report back to them from your newly found and contacted and visited HIMS AME...with continued evaluation (random ETG testing, which is an 80 hour alcohol test), AA, substance abuse therapy...it's a lot. But during that time (which is 6 months from now probably) you can still get dual training...KEEP FLYING with your CFI.

    You are your only advocate. Keep all records. All tests. Push you AME. Push your psych. Push the FAA. Call FAA med cert division every day.
     
  34. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I had 2 DWI's (0.15 BAC and 0.21 BAC) within 4 years of each other with the most recent one being about 12 years prior to getting my 3rd Class Medical.

    I went to a HIMS AME and was still deferred because of the 2 DWI's. OKC wanted all court papers, 10 year driver history, statements, etc. I sent all that info in and about 2 weeks later received a request for additional information. They wanted a letter from my doctor stating that there were no signs of alcohol abuse or dependency.

    Sent that in and about 2 weeks later received a "stern" letter from the FAA that any additional alcohol related issues would not be tolerated and a temporary 3rd Class Medical.

    It can be done, be patient and only supply the information that the FAA requests. The whole process took about 2 months but about 3-4 weeks of that was me getting the requested info.

    Hope this helps.
     
  35. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    What's an "80 hour alcohol test"?
     
  36. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

  37. bluerooster

    bluerooster Cleared for Takeoff

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    Let me tell you how it worked out for me.
    It had been so long since my "last crime", I just went and got my medical exam (mentioned nothing about it on the forms) and started flying. Shortly after my checkride, I got a letter (I still have it somewhere) outlining all the hoops that I needed to jump through, and a time frame in which to do it. They wanted records of all convictions, and transcripts from the court, arrest records, etc. they were very specific, with dates, and everything. They already knew, everything that could be known. They did not suspend my medical, but gave me a very tight deadline to meet or they would. Well I set about gathering up all that the FAA wanted. What I found out was that apparently in the state of GA, you can only obtain your own records back 7 years. Needless to say I came up empty handed.
    So, I called Jim. Told him what I needed, showed him the letter, and he got what there was in existence, which was lacking the transcripts, and arrest records. And provided me with a letter stating that fact. I also wrote a letter explaining the facts about the most recent conviction (still over 25 years ago at that time), which was the one they were most concerned about. And went on to explain all that I'd been through in an effort to obtain the requested documents. Packed it all into a very fat manilla envelope and sent it to them.
    About a month later, I received a nice note from them explaining that they had all that they needed, and from now on all I have to do is check the "yes" box and in the explanation box give these two numbers, along with, "on file" and "No Change". (I also still have that note) I've been doing that for the past 15 years and no worries.
    So what it amounts to, is once I went through all the rigamarole to get them what they already had, I was good to go, with the reminder to own up to it on every medical app from now on, and allowed me to have a number, rather than write out the whole explanation.
     
  38. bluerooster

    bluerooster Cleared for Takeoff

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    He can help in obtaining records that the FAA wants, but the courts will not give to you. He can also help in explaining that certian records are no longer available to anyone due to the timeframe, and they destroy old records of closed cases, except certian facts to prove history.
     
  39. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Question for those that have gone through this before:
    Will a case of high BAC automatically mean dependency/abuse? Seems from everything I have read that it hinges on the Neuro-psycohology assessment you do.

    Also, does the psychiatrist make recommendation as part of their assessment to the FAA?
    Lastly, I heard of people being asked to do a 30 day in-house treatment. Is that the only option or how else have others handled the need to work?

    Thanks
     
  40. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Yes...the high BAC will result in FAA deeming you dependent on alcohol. This will result in you having to get a HIMS psych eval.

    The HIMS psych eval will have recommendations in it. Depending on what you say during your evaluation (2-3 hours), the psych will likely recommend full abstinence from substance, being sponsored/followed by a HIMS AME, random alcohol testing (as requested by your AME, weekly for the first few months, then monthly), substance abuse therapy (weekly), AA (weekly), ...you'll need to show proof that you have commenced all of these...and the FAA will require you to do this for a period of time prior to getting your medical back. As little as 3 months, as long as 12 months...once you get your special issuance, they'll give you similar but slightly more lenient requirements.

    Alcohol testing will be ETG urine test, which shows any alcohol consumption in previous 72 hours.

    You'll need letters from your therapist. A letter from an AA sponsor would help. Copies of each ETG test, and a letter from your AME that you have been compliant...don't expect much from any of these folks. You may have to write the letters yourself and have them sign...and you will have to keep copies of every test...so that after 12 months (or whenever) you can send the entire packet to FAA/OKC.