3rd class medical legislation/ruling

Even if they did work it overnight, it makes sense from a prioritization standpoint. They needed to address the drone/UAV issue much sooner than something that could be left status quo like medicals.

Yep, with all of the near misses lately it's getting accelerated. Just imagine what will happen when one of these get sucked into a $2 million engine. :eek:
 
It is what it is, a big ball of B'cratism. Go on vote for the change you want. Or stop waiting and go fly some of the really cool stuff that doesn't require a medical. Or buy outright and fly your own plane medical and insurance free.

Care to elaborate on that thought ?
 
My annoyance is multi-factorial. I just watched Blue Ash close. In it's place is a seldom-used park - but thankfully folks are allowed to fly RCs there ... I'm at the point in life where I can buy a new plane - and plan to do so. But if I lose the medical it's gonna cost me 6 figures to get in and out of the market. My health is good and I wouldn't fly if I couldn't self-certify. Tired of the FAA horror stories. This one continues. And yes I'm sure the FAA have their priorities straight lol. They were probably looking up the word "drone" in 2010. Ostentatious indeed would be the assertion than an organization with 45,000 employees and a 12B budget could not work on 2 projects simultaneously because they're all in a drone "thought-tank". ROAFDL.
 
My annoyance is multi-factorial. I just watched Blue Ash close. In it's place is a seldom-used park - but thankfully folks are allowed to fly RCs there ... I'm at the point in life where I can buy a new plane - and plan to do so. But if I lose the medical it's gonna cost me 6 figures to get in and out of the market. My health is good and I wouldn't fly if I couldn't self-certify. Tired of the FAA horror stories. This one continues. And yes I'm sure the FAA have their priorities straight lol. They were probably looking up the word "drone" in 2010. Ostentatious indeed would be the assertion than an organization with 45,000 employees and a 12B budget could not work on 2 projects simultaneously because they're all in a drone "thought-tank". ROAFDL.

Sounds to me like you spend too much time on the internet reading FAA "horror stories", but even worse is you believe them. :rolleyes2:

"But I read on the internet............" :rolleyes: :rofl:
 
How much does the FAA have to do with passengers on a one on one basis? When I go to an airport such as Lambert Field in St Louis as an airline passener do I interact with any FAA employees? I think most of the people are airline employees, terminal employees, homeland security and TSA employees.
 
Last edited:
This is a question. How much does the FAA have to do with passengers on a one on one basis? When I go to an airport such as Lambert Field in St Louis as an airline passener do I interact with any FAA employees?

Carry something illegal on the airplane, or disrupt the flight and you will get FAA "one on one" service.....:rolleyes:
 
I think it would be TSA or FBI, not FAA.

In any case, I'm talking about the ordinary passenger. I'm thinking a regional jet with 32 passengers is as much a burden to the FAA as the airline of a major carrier with 250 passengers.
 
How much does the FAA have to do with passengers on a one on one basis? When I go to an airport such as Lambert Field in St Louis as an airline passener do I interact with any FAA employees? I think most of the people are airline employees, terminal employees, homeland security and TSA employees.
How does this question fit the topic of this thread? I don't see the connection. Maybe you should post an off topic question in a new thread.
 
How does this question fit the topic of this thread? I don't see the connection. Maybe you should post an off topic question in a new thread.

Here's how it fits in. My idea is that the more pilots are on the books, the easier it would be for the FAA to get funding. The FAA would be better served by moving forward to the 3rd class non-medical rather than delaying it.

As it is now, if pilots are concerned about losing their medical, some will move into being LS pilots. It is difficult for the FAA to measure the number of LS pilots. Or, if PPL pilots do go ahead and get a medical but lose it, then they must no longer be active pilots.

Several people have posted saying that the number of pilots is a non-issue. The FAA will primarily be funded based on other factors such as the number of passengers. I do not disagree that other factors will contribute the funding. I merely suggest that retaining active pilots should be a reasonable idea for the FAA to consider.
 
If the Department of Transportation wants to drag its metaphorical feet and stonewall you should contact your representative. Heavily supported bills have been proposed in both houses. Congress could easily force their hand and probably should.
 
Sounds to me like you spend too much time on the internet reading FAA "horror stories", but even worse is you believe them. :rolleyes2:

Wish that were the case.
A 43 yo ATP from a large airline came to my office recently.
His medical had been denied.
He's putting his daughter through college, and his status became "lineman" in 5s.
After 3 months working with FAA medical we got his ticket back.
It was all a bunch of nothing.

So there - you read it on the internet.
 
Wish that were the case.
A 43 yo ATP from a large airline came to my office recently.
His medical had been denied.
He's putting his daughter through college, and his status became "lineman" in 5s.
After 3 months working with FAA medical we got his ticket back.
It was all a bunch of nothing.

So there - you read it on the internet.

An ATP at a "large airline" would have sick time and disability, so I don't understand the "lineman" status. :dunno:

And putting his daughter through college is the responsibility of the FAA? :rolleyes:

Since we don't know why his medical was denied, and why it took 3 months to reinstate, I don't know if we could call it "a bunch of nothing".

Yep, you're right......read on the internet. :rolleyes2:
 
Blogging = Working at the FAA

An ATP at a "large airline" would have sick time and disability, so I don't understand the "lineman" status. :dunno:

And putting his daughter through college is the responsibility of the FAA? :rolleyes:

Since we don't know why his medical was denied, and why it took 3 months to reinstate, I don't know if we could call it "a bunch of nothing".

It appears your perch (former ?) at the FAA provides unlimited insight. Obviously the pilot is not going to continue making 6 figures indefinitely if he can't do his job. So the "lineman" status is likely a metaphor (see FAA employee now searching frantically for dictionary). Another common metaphor we use: "he went from from flying 'em to washing 'em in a day" ... get it ? Generally, reinstatement of a medical 3 months following denial is an exceedingly short period of time in FAA medical matters. The denominating phrases in your prattle, "I don't understand", "dunno", "we don't know why" appear to describe your state of being. If you're just going to dish on posts provided by what appears to be a physician working with airmen day to day then quit being a troll, and just log off. You're probably missing the morning "drone-think-tank" meeting.
 
Re: Blogging = Working at the FAA

It appears your perch (former ?) at the FAA provides unlimited insight. Obviously the pilot is not going to continue making 6 figures indefinitely if he can't do his job. So the "lineman" status is likely a metaphor (see FAA employee now searching frantically for dictionary). Another common metaphor we use: "he went from from flying 'em to washing 'em in a day" ... get it ? Generally, reinstatement of a medical 3 months following denial is an exceedingly short period of time in FAA medical matters. The denominating phrases in your prattle, "I don't understand", "dunno", "we don't know why" appear to describe your state of being. If you're just going to dish on posts provided by what appears to be a physician working with airmen day to day then quit being a troll, and just log off. You're probably missing the morning "drone-think-tank" meeting.

Now this is funny, someone logging in "unregistered" and calling me a troll? :rofl:
 
I entered the FAA in early 2010, and they were working on the drone issues back then. Hardly an overnight deal. :rolleyes:


I'm no huge fan of the lumbering bureaucracy, but R&W is right on this.

I've got a associate who's been waiting on these initial rule making beta test documents (because they'll be changed, no doubt) for a lot of years, because he wants to invest in so-called "drone" tech. He's got a unique background that'll probably land him in a leadership role in a drone company of some sort, eventually. He wants to be in commercial stuff not DoD. Personal preference although he's adequately qualified to do both.

A bunch of game plans were flushed... and a bunch of game plans were vilified both, by the recent conjuring of rules.

The waving of magic pens has begun officially now.

Heh.

And now we wait and see who has enough money to buy off their bosses to get it changed to suit their liking, and business tastes.

Whoever comes up with a way to make drones pay for the next phase of ADS-B, or whatever the next new thing is called, will have whatever drone rules they like.

See if I'm wrong in 20 years. FAA needs a revenue stream to keep up with FCC. Drone airspace auctions. It'll happen.
 
Perhaps a new thread...

Should the Third Class Medical be suspended, or should the LSA designation be expanded to include all Non-Complex, Non-High Performance aircraft?

Then we're only discussing a couple seats, some HP, and restricting to Fixed Gear.
 
Been living in a box? The OMB will soon release their review of the FAA 3rd class medical reform proposal and the public will get it's first peek at the wording. I look forward to seeing how closely it resembles the EAA/AOPA petition to expand no medical/LSA rules to include up to 4 seats and 180hp. The more liberal congressional versions of 3rd class medical reform will likely die a swift death if the FAA offers such a compromise. Not like they had much of a chance of making it out of committee in the first place.
 
Perhaps a new thread...



Should the Third Class Medical be suspended, or should the LSA designation be expanded to include all Non-Complex, Non-High Performance aircraft?



Then we're only discussing a couple seats, some HP, and restricting to Fixed Gear.


Why the limitation on complex? While I don't agree with it, I can understand a HP limitation given the increased energy in a crash, but what risk does a constant speed prop and landing gear bring to an incapacitated pilot?
 
I'm in agreement with Stan, and StewartB's comment that their honing in on 180HP makes me wonder why not all the way to 200?

That's still less than "Greater than 200HP" where High Performance kicks in an would make a lot of 4-place retractable aircraft fit in the LSA box.

Heck, if I can pull it with a tow bar it has to be LIGHT!
 
I'm in agreement with Stan, and StewartB's comment that their honing in on 180HP makes me wonder why not all the way to 200?

That's still less than "Greater than 200HP" where High Performance kicks in an would make a lot of 4-place retractable aircraft fit in the LSA box.

Heck, if I can pull it with a tow bar it has to be LIGHT!

Because the proposal is basically extending LSA to Recreational Pilot privleges, as those rules already exist, and the cutoff there is 180HP
 
Because the proposal is basically extending LSA to Recreational Pilot privleges, as those rules already exist, and the cutoff there is 180HP


God forbid they change three digits and a few words. They'll need raises and more team building junkets in Vegas just to recover from the extra work.
 
So yes, I'm new in this review of stuffs...

The current proposal would allow someone with a PPL, and a lapsed medical (with no denial) to fly C172's and PA28-180's on their drivers license so long as they have no knowledge of a condition under which they should not operate a light sport aircraft?

I'd still like that other 20hp for my current plane, but certainly a proposal with merrit
 
Last edited:
Re: the FAA aeromedical beaurocracy...

For many years I had a low dose thyroid prescription and reported it during my flight physicals. Then one year my AME deferred my case because of the thyroid scrip. I was torqued. I got internet AME advice to find a new AME because mine had his head up his butt for deferring such a minor issue. That turned out to be very bad advice. What happened in the shadows was that the FAA Aeromed folks got audited by the US Inspector General's office and got their hands slapped for deviating from their mandated rules and procedures. Thyroid conditions were supposed to be deferred but the FAA had allowed AMEs to disregard minor cases for years. So the real truth is that the FAA had exercised common sense and got spanked by big brother IG for doing so. Since that time many minor conditions like low dose thyroid meds have been reclassified as CACI, conditions your AME can issue for within published guidelines. So the truth is that the FAA has been an ally in the aeromedical area with respect to keeping pilots flying. I had a phone conversation yesterday with my region flight surgeon's office because I needed a case-specific form. 2 minutes later I had the form in an email. Very helpful folks.
 
So yes, I'm new in this review of stuffs...

The current proposal would allow someone with a PPL, and a lapsed medical (with no denial) to fly C172's and PA28-180's on their drivers license so long as they have no knowledge of a condition under which they should not operate a light sport aircraft?

I'd still like that other 20hp for my current plane, but certainly a proposal with merrit
No one outside the FAA really knows what the current proposed regulation really says.
 
Why the limitation on complex? While I don't agree with it, I can understand a HP limitation given the increased energy in a crash, but what risk does a constant speed prop and landing gear bring to an incapacitated pilot?

Energy is only related to mass and velocity (specifically, E=1/2*mv^2). A fixed-gear 182 (which is high performance) and a Piper Arrow (which is not HP) will have approximately the same energy in a crash due to similar speed and weight.

However, if you compare something like a Mooney 201 (not "HP" as it's only 200hp, but fast) with an Airvan (HP due to 300hp, but heavy and slow):

Mooney: 1/2 * 2740lb * 160 kt ^2 = 35,072,000
Airvan: 1/2 * 4000lb * 120 kt ^2 = 28,800,000

Obviously not using SI units here, but it doesn't matter - The 200hp retract Mooney would have over 20% MORE energy in a crash than the much larger and heavier (and higher HP) Airvan.
 
Energy is only related to mass and velocity (specifically, E=1/2*mv^2). A fixed-gear 182 (which is high performance) and a Piper Arrow (which is not HP) will have approximately the same energy in a crash due to similar speed and weight.



However, if you compare something like a Mooney 201 (not "HP" as it's only 200hp, but fast) with an Airvan (HP due to 300hp, but heavy and slow):



Mooney: 1/2 * 2740lb * 160 kt ^2 = 35,072,000

Airvan: 1/2 * 4000lb * 120 kt ^2 = 28,800,000



Obviously not using SI units here, but it doesn't matter - The 200hp retract Mooney would have over 20% MORE energy in a crash than the much larger and heavier (and higher HP) Airvan.


You engineers. ;)

So what are your thoughts, Kent? I'd hope that both complex and HP requirements are excluded, leaving it open to anything under 6,000 lbs (or more) or so. So when I get my T-34 (someday :) ) I can fly it until I'm no longer comfortable flying it.
 
Re: the FAA aeromedical beaurocracy...

For many years I had a low dose thyroid prescription and reported it during my flight physicals. Then one year my AME deferred my case because of the thyroid scrip. I was torqued. I got internet AME advice to find a new AME because mine had his head up his butt for deferring such a minor issue. That turned out to be very bad advice. What happened in the shadows was that the FAA Aeromed folks got audited by the US Inspector General's office and got their hands slapped for deviating from their mandated rules and procedures. Thyroid conditions were supposed to be deferred but the FAA had allowed AMEs to disregard minor cases for years. So the real truth is that the FAA had exercised common sense and got spanked by big brother IG for doing so. Since that time many minor conditions like low dose thyroid meds have been reclassified as CACI, conditions your AME can issue for within published guidelines. So the truth is that the FAA has been an ally in the aeromedical area with respect to keeping pilots flying. I had a phone conversation yesterday with my region flight surgeon's office because I needed a case-specific form. 2 minutes later I had the form in an email. Very helpful folks.

Now THAT explains a lot! Thanks!
 
Been living in a box? The OMB will soon release their review of the FAA 3rd class medical reform proposal and the public will get it's first peek at the wording. I look forward to seeing how closely it resembles the EAA/AOPA petition to expand no medical/LSA rules to include up to 4 seats and 180hp. The more liberal congressional versions of 3rd class medical reform will likely die a swift death if the FAA offers such a compromise. Not like they had much of a chance of making it out of committee in the first place.
What's the OMB? There seems to be a slew of proposals these days, which one will they be reviewing? Can you post a link to an article?
 
For review- If you haven't read the original EAA/AOPA petition, please do so. It's a very well written document.

The EAA/AOPA petition- http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/A...ion/120319aopa-eaa-petition-for-exemption.pdf

The petition sat without any action. In fact the FAA stated publicly that it wasn't an important issue to them. That spurred political action from Congress.

The House of Representatives bill- https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3708

The Senate version- https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2103

Meanwhile the FAA has awakened and crafted some version of their own regarding 3rd class medical reform. The content of the FAA proposal that's in review has not been made public.
 
Last edited:
You engineers. ;)

I've been called "too analytical" before. So then, I got a job where that's what I'm supposed to do. Works great. :D

So what are your thoughts, Kent? I'd hope that both complex and HP requirements are excluded, leaving it open to anything under 6,000 lbs (or more) or so. So when I get my T-34 (someday :) ) I can fly it until I'm no longer comfortable flying it.

IMO, non-commercial operations for anything that doesn't require a type rating should be fine. That would allow things up to 12,500 pounds that aren't turbojet-powered. Come on, you can drive a 26,000 pound vehicle with an additional 10,000 pound trailer with nothing more than a driver's license!

I don't see night or IFR as valid restrictions either. Having those restrictions on otherwise properly trained and qualified people is going to be a detriment to safety.

I think cognitive issues are more likely to cause problems than heart attacks, strokes, etc - Private pilots generally fly <100 hours/year, or less than 1.2% of the time. These major medical events are point-in-time events that are just as likely to occur in the 98.8% of the time someone's not flying, whereas cognitive degeneration will affect someone 100% of the time. If you can't think ahead of the plane, you're dangerous, and you're likely to crash eventually. So, I think maybe more frequent BFRs (AFRs?) would increase safety among older pilots than any medical would.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that some of the things that require a second-class medical today such as local scenic flights in a 172 or the like should only require a third class medical.

This whole thing kind of reminds me of the title of one of Rick Durden's articles: "We worry about the wrong things, and it's killing us."
 
I've been called "too analytical" before. So then, I got a job where that's what I'm supposed to do. Works great. :D







IMO, non-commercial operations for anything that doesn't require a type rating should be fine. That would allow things up to 12,500 pounds that aren't turbojet-powered. Come on, you can drive a 26,000 pound vehicle with an additional 10,000 pound trailer with nothing more than a driver's license!



I don't see night or IFR as valid restrictions either. Having those restrictions on otherwise properly trained and qualified people is going to be a detriment to safety.



I think cognitive issues are more likely to cause problems than heart attacks, strokes, etc - Private pilots generally fly <100 hours/year, or less than 1.2% of the time. These major medical events are point-in-time events that are just as likely to occur in the 98.8% of the time someone's not flying, whereas cognitive degeneration will affect someone 100% of the time. If you can't think ahead of the plane, you're dangerous, and you're likely to crash eventually. So, I think maybe more frequent BFRs (AFRs?) would increase safety among older pilots than any medical would.



In fact, I'd go so far as to say that some of the things that require a second-class medical today such as local scenic flights in a 172 or the like should only require a third class medical.



This whole thing kind of reminds me of the title of one of Rick Durden's articles: "We worry about the wrong things, and it's killing us."


Great points. I could go along with AFRs. I fly infrequently enough as a renter that I regularly grab a CFI to just go do something - maneuvers, flying new aircraft, working on crosswinds, or doing an IPC. Any of them can be converted to a flight review.
 
The FAA sent their proposal to DOT for review. Next stop is OMB, Office of Management and Budget. They're supposed to be finished with their review in January and it'll be released to the public then. There have been numerous articles about the current state of the FAA proposal. Here's one that summarizes it pretty well.

http://generalaviationnews.com/2014/11/11/expect-third-class-medical-reform-in-2015/
So we'll definitely see the proposal in January then? What is the next step after that?
 
Been living in a box? The OMB will soon release their review of the FAA 3rd class medical reform proposal and the public will get it's first peek at the wording. I look forward to seeing how closely it resembles the EAA/AOPA petition to expand no medical/LSA rules to include up to 4 seats and 180hp. The more liberal congressional versions of 3rd class medical reform will likely die a swift death if the FAA offers such a compromise. Not like they had much of a chance of making it out of committee in the first place.
Then the GOP congress critters will be sworn in.....and this should bring money back for either cuts or other stuff.

So....at the end of the day it should be a cost savings for the tax payers. IMHO it has a good chance of happening sooner vs. later.:yes:

You'll have to ask Nancy what's inside the bill.....:D
 
The FAA sent their proposal to DOT for review. Next stop is OMB, Office of Management and Budget. They're supposed to be finished with their review in January and it'll be released to the public then. There have been numerous articles about the current state of the FAA proposal. Here's one that summarizes it pretty well.

http://generalaviationnews.com/2014/11/11/expect-third-class-medical-reform-in-2015/

Looks like that time frame was wishful thinking. OMB hasn't received the the proposal yet. According to this article, the DOT "plans" on completing it by today before sending it to the OMB, which will have another 90 days, maybe more, to review and comment before we can see it. <sigh>
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top