3G Data in-flight

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
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I'm sure someone has tried this before (right).

I had a conversation with a non-flyer this morning and telling him about the possibility XM weather on my iPad. Then the question arose as to IF I could get 3G Data in-flight.:idea: I had never tried it. I'm sure someone has. What were your results? What altitude could you do it? I know people have successfully had a cellphone conversation in flight (I saw a pilot have a full conversation in 2001 while I was sitting right seat in a C-172).
 
I'm sure someone has tried this before (right).

I had a conversation with a non-flyer this morning and telling him about the possibility XM weather on my iPad. Then the question arose as to IF I could get 3G Data in-flight.:idea: I had never tried it. I'm sure someone has. What were your results? What altitude could you do it? I know people have successfully had a cellphone conversation in flight (I saw a pilot have a full conversation in 2001 while I was sitting right seat in a C-172).
Depending on where you are in the country, it's possible. I've done it from altitudes ranging from 3000 to 5500. It is rather intermittent though. During a flight from KMKE to KPWK, the signal would go from full bars, to zero, back to full all in the matter of a few minutes.
 
If you have AT&T or T-Mobile, you will not be able to get it because of the "many cell tower" issue.

If you have a CDMA carrier (Sprint, Verizon, etc.), you will work just fine if you have signal.

If you don't have signal, you won't get data.
 
If you have AT&T or T-Mobile, you will not be able to get it because of the "many cell tower" issue.

If you have a CDMA carrier (Sprint, Verizon, etc.), you will work just fine if you have signal.

If you don't have signal, you won't get data.

Up to what altitude can you expect proper signal (enough to not need XM services)?
 
I have AT&T, and I normally get it in the air with with relatively few issues, unless I'm in the mountains or over the ocean.
 
Up to what altitude can you expect proper signal (enough to not need XM services)?

I've gotten Verizon to work up to 11,000ft MSL (of course, that was over 7500ft terrain).

Out here, I usually get it working up through 5,500. I haven't gone higher yet, so I don't know how much higher it works.
 
Up to what altitude can you expect proper signal (enough to not need XM services)?

It also depends on the area of the country. I'm out in the Southwest and my Verizon coverage in flight is really spotty. Between San Diego and Phoenix, I'm usually cruising between 8 and 12K. My signal is pretty much dead after leaving the San Diego area and then picks up over Yuma, only to go dead again until I am approaching PHX.
 
Verizon quits working for me at about 3500 AGL around here.
 
Up to what altitude can you expect proper signal (enough to not need XM services)?

Up to 11,000ft MSL, but that was over terrain of 7500ft. Out here, the highest I've tried has been 5500ft, and it worked fine with Verizon. I haven't tried any higher than that, so I don't know what the actual ceiling is.

The trick is that if you have CDMA, and you have signal, it works. If you have GSM, and you have signal, it may not work because the sheer number of towers it receives from is so large the phone can't communicate.
 
I have AT&T and foreflight works well on the iPad pretty much everywhere around here except out west.

West of KSAT = No signal.
 
ATT with iPad and Foreflight. Around highly populated areas, I can pick up weather and Data pretty good.

North of Oshkosh, forgettaboutit. Random, spotty, never long enough to load the maps WHEN you need it.

Im looking for an in flight weather option, the Cell towers are just not reliable enough. When you need it, it will let you down.
 
In the DC area, with an AT&T iPhone 4, I get decent 3G reception at 2500' or so. I tried to file a flight plan at 4500' with ForeFlight once, but had no luck and had to file through Leesburg FSS.
 
I got Verizon up to 6,000 once, over central Florida (I had declared an emergency, so Daytona Approach dropped me down so I could call a mechanic). Most of the time it seems it's only up to 3-5K at best, though. I just switched to Sprint last week, so I'll have to do some experimenting.
 
Interesting insight folks! Does anyone really think about getting a XM or ADS-B weather receiver?

I am a software developer interested in creating the best tool for the cockpit.
I know there are currently many systems like the Garmin 696, and combinations of various software (ForeFlight, Xwing) with the iPad.
Do you think you can build a better system and application? I think so.
icon_biggrin.gif


Please spend 12 minutes on the following survey to help me understand your needs and your thoughts on the limitations of existing solutions.

http://kellogg.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_0i9J5FSxbYZryUk
 
If you have AT&T or T-Mobile, you will not be able to get it because of the "many cell tower" issue.

If you have a CDMA carrier (Sprint, Verizon, etc.), you will work just fine if you have signal.

If you don't have signal, you won't get data.

So, you think Verizon has fewer towers? :dunno: The cell networks work largely the same in this context. You need signal to one tower for it to work well. AT&T's 3G network is actually a CDMA-based technology, so there shouldn't be much of a difference and IME there isn't - Some networks work better in some places, others in other places.

I've gotten Verizon to work up to 11,000ft MSL (of course, that was over 7500ft terrain).

With this stuff, it's AGL that matters...

Out here, I usually get it working up through 5,500. I haven't gone higher yet, so I don't know how much higher it works.

... So, 5500 MSL (~4800 AGL out there) is more impressive than 11,000 MSL that's only 3500 AGL.

I'm sure someone has tried this before (right).

I had a conversation with a non-flyer this morning and telling him about the possibility XM weather on my iPad. Then the question arose as to IF I could get 3G Data in-flight.:idea: I had never tried it. I'm sure someone has. What were your results? What altitude could you do it? I know people have successfully had a cellphone conversation in flight (I saw a pilot have a full conversation in 2001 while I was sitting right seat in a C-172).

It really depends where you are and which carrier you're on. I've got experience with Apple, Sony-Ericsson, and Nokia equipment on Verizon and AT&T and haven't noticed a big difference between any of the above overall.

If you're in a highly populated area, lower is better. Middle of nowhere, higher is OK. Urban cell towers are usually lower-powered and often directional and aimed slightly toward the ground - Cell network design is all about frequency re-use, and where there's a lot of people, they need to make sure that the signals from one frequency aren't strong enough a couple cells over where the same frequency is being used that they interfere with the calls in that cell. Lower power and aiming the signals at the ground so they can't propagate for longer distances helps with that... If you're on the ground. If you're in the air, not so much!

Now, if you're in the middle of nowhere, they'll have high-powered, less directional signals so that they can cover a large area with fewer towers. These towers are easier to pick up from the air, and will work higher. The highest I think I've gotten it to work was 8500 MSL/~7500 AGL over the northwoods of Wisconsin.

The other thing is, how much data are you trying to get? This isn't a matter of "it works" vs. "it doesn't" it's mostly a gray area and since you're moving quite fast in an airplane, the usable data throughput will be constantly changing, and connections may be interrupted. Trying to fetch a textual METAR or TAF? Not much data there, so if you start loading it when the data throughput is good, it should work well. Trying to fetch a radar picture? Not so easy, because you need good throughput for a much longer time, and if you get bad to no throughput for any length of time the connection may be dropped and you'll have to start over from the beginning.

In any case - With any device and any network, getting reliable data throughput while in the air is unlikely. Sometimes it'll work, but it's certainly not something that I'd be counting on to get me around storms in IMC. For that, you really do want XM or ADS-B.
 
So, you think Verizon has fewer towers? :dunno: The cell networks work largely the same in this context. You need signal to one tower for it to work well. AT&T's 3G network is actually a CDMA-based technology, so there shouldn't be much of a difference and IME there isn't - Some networks work better in some places, others in other places.

I think it has more to do with how CDMA locks into towers, not that there are fewer (although, there are fewer towers because my understanding is that CDMA has a longer range than GSM).

Note - UMTS (W-CDMA) is not CDMA. There's actually a pretty big difference.


With this stuff, it's AGL that matters...
Of course. It was a joke :D

... So, 5500 MSL (~4800 AGL out there) is more impressive than 11,000 MSL that's only 3500 AGL.

More like ~4800 - ~5300 (5500MSL is around 5300 here in some places)
 
I think it has more to do with how CDMA locks into towers, not that there are fewer (although, there are fewer towers because my understanding is that CDMA has a longer range than GSM).

I doubt it... I think CDMA's range is normally only ~6 miles, I can't imagine GSM is much less.

Note - UMTS (W-CDMA) is not CDMA. There's actually a pretty big difference.

The multiple access method is the same, though. There's obviously a big difference between the gazillion different technologies that are grafted together for the various networks, but what matters isn't what happens after the bits hit the tower, which is where the differences are. For multiple access, there are only three: FDMA, TDMA, and CDMA. W-CDMA and a couple others have "CDMA" in the name and they use CDMA, but they're referring to the entire technology and not to the multiple access method in use.

More like ~4800 - ~5300 (5500MSL is around 5300 here in some places)

I just looked up the elevation of your home field. ;)
 
The highest I think I've gotten it to work was 8500 MSL/~7500 AGL over the northwoods of Wisconsin.

I flew SUW to ASX at 3500MSL a little over a month ago, and to my surprise, I had a 3G connection on my Sprint phone the entire time. I was able to pull METARs in the air through Naviator, which was a neat trick, although not something I would actually rely on in the air. ;)
 
Note - UMTS (W-CDMA) is not CDMA. There's actually a pretty big difference.
I don't think that came out quite the way you meant it. I can assure you that WCDMA is CDMA. But what you are referring to as CDMA and WCDMA cellular specs are different and not easily compatible.

CDMA simply means Code Division Multiple Access and could actually refer to a myriad of standards and schemes. The common use of CDMA in the telecom world usually means TIA/EIE IS95 or IS2000 CDMA. WCDMA in the telecom world was standardized by the 3GPP whereas CDMA was done by 3GPP2. There are some parameters that were coordinated to make hand off between the technologies more elegant and allow for multimode device architecture. But you correct to think that a CDMA cellular phone will not simply start talking to a WCDMA BS.
 
. For multiple access, there are only three: FDMA, TDMA, and CDMA. W-CDMA
I can assure you there are more than three. For 4G, OFDMA is the new kid on the block. BTW for TDMA, CDMA and WCDMA cellular all three are also FDMA. Even OFDMA will have a FDMA mode to it as well. Although people like Clearwire and the Chinese will use the TDD mode of that specification. Also WiMAX is OFDMA and runs in a TDD mode. OFDM is also popular in the wireless world too. Some of the lesser known wireless broadband standards use it.

Other than that, yep to your post.
 
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I don't think that came out quite the way you meant it. I can assure you that WCDMA is CDMA. But what you are referring to as CDMA and WCDMA cellular specs are different and not easily compatible.

CDMA simply means Code Division Multiple Access and could actually refer to a myriad of standards and schemes. The common use of CDMA in the telecom world usually means TIA/EIE IS95 or IS2000 CDMA. WCDMA in the telecom world was standardized by the 3GPP whereas CDMA was done by 3GPP2. There are some parameters that were coordinated to make hand off between the technologies more elegant and allow for multimode device architecture. But you correct to think that a CDMA cellular phone will not simply start talking to a WCDMA BS.

Emphasis mine - That's what I was talking about.

Scott, what say you re: the assertion that a "CDMA" network (Verizon) vs. a GSM network (AT&T) would have differing abilities to be accessed in flight? I had a passing thought that FDMA vs. TDMA vs. CDMA might make a difference when I posted before, but now I can't remember what I was thinking. :rofl:

Either way, I don't think Verizon is automagically going to work fine in the air when AT&T doesn't. :no: They all suffer from the "multiple-tower syndrome". Right?
 
I can assure you there are more than three. For 4G, OFDMA is the new kid on the block.

Huh... I just started reading about that and for a moment my head wanted to explode...

Orthogonal Frequency-Division Multiple Access (OFDMA) is a multi-user version of the popular Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM) digital modulation scheme. Multiple access is achieved in OFDMA by assigning subsets of subcarriers to individual users

... But then I started wondering how it's really different from FDMA, except that each user appears to get multiple subcarriers? Maybe that's just their graphic being misleading.

BTW for TDMA, CDMA and WCDMA cellular all three are also FDMA. Even OFDMA will have a FDMA mode to it as well.

Well, isn't EVERYTHING technically FDMA? Even, say, AM radio? ;)
 
Either way, I don't think Verizon is automagically going to work fine in the air when AT&T doesn't. :no: They all suffer from the "multiple-tower syndrome". Right?
The technology use, be it CDMA or GSM or EDGE, GPRS, OFDMA, UMTS, etc. Matters a little IF we were designing an airborne system. Them the parameters picked, window sizes, timing advances, link budgets, and a myriad of other would make the difference. But really for a terrestrial designed system. Which is what all of these are, the biggest issue is going to be the system design itself. So yeah, the towers and frequency reuse, make the bigger difference. But I should say that CDMA does handle interference better than all the others. By CDMA I mean generic CDMA. So CDMA cellular and WCDMA cellular would be comprobable.

The system design can be using downtilts of antennas to minimize terrestrial interference and that just means less radio waves getting into the sky. I did the design of Verizon's first CDMA systems in the Midwest when they were operated as PrimeCo. We used 3-5 degree downtilts a lot except in the urban areas (Milwaukee and Chicago) where we used 30 degree down tilts. When I was doing the HTC system trial in Hong Kong earlier we used sometimes 90 degree down tilts. Hong Kong was where CDMA was really first deployed and we learned a lot.

I have keep pretty quiet in this thread because there is not a uniform answer to the question of whose system works best when airborne unless you want to use AirCell. Their is the best because they operate under a waiver with a dedicated system designed for airborne use. For all the terrestrial system you get what you get and it is not going to be uniform across the country. I would not bet my flight on being able to get that data link everywhere unless I bought AirCell service.
 
Huh... I just started reading about that and for a moment my head wanted to explode...



... But then I started wondering how it's really different from FDMA, except that each user appears to get multiple subcarriers? Maybe that's just their graphic being misleading.
Sort of it is a frequency division technique to be sure. But when you are looking at the sub carriers they are only carrying information in one direction. Where FDMA is usually meant to convey a two way information flow. So for OFDMA you need a reverse link of OFDMA and it can be at a different center frequency or FDD or it could be a different time, TDD. FDD and FDMA are really used almost interchangeably these days by a lot of people in the telecom and broadband field. Technically they are not the same though.
 
Huh... I just started reading about that and for a moment my head wanted to explode...
I felt the same way when I first started working with it too. Wait until you get into the math behind it!!! :yikes:

4G LTE is using OFDMA as will LTE-Advanced. The 5G stuff that I am starting to work on is also using OFDMA right now, but I cannot guarantee that 5G will be OFDMA based.
 
I haven't had trouble getting data from AT&T, but I don't think I've tried it above about 3,000' AGL.
 
Having now used an AT&T iPhone and a Verizon iPhone over Eastern Colorado, out here, VZ soundly kicks AT&T's ***.

Same thing with terrestrial coverage in the city.

After close to 100 dropped calls in a month at my new work location, AT&T is gone from my life and it should have been done sooner, at any price.

Especially after they told a VP that their coverage would be fixed by the end of June and a later separate call to technical services confirmed that zero sites were being built within 3 miles of the office until end of Q4 2011, if then.

Buh-bye AT&T!

As far as the technical discussion goes, watching Kent go through brain cramps just like when I got forced to learn the basics of the base stations is entertaining.

Someone tell him about group delay! ;)

We need a head-exploding smiley icon. ;)

And we can all thank Qualcomm for all of this. But they're raking in the bucks on their patents, so they won't care if we thank them anyway... ;)

What I wanna know is... Why does the CODEC have a tiny little white noise hiss after ringing signal on VZ's network? It's kinda interesting to this land-line guy.

Riiiiiing (hiss) ... Silence... Riiiiing (hiss)... Silence. Probably down at least -30dB from the ringing indicator.

Gotta turn the phone way up to hear it and checked other phones too. It's the network, not the handsets.

Kinda sounds like mathematical AGC with a ramp and a short timer that clamps it to silence in about 50 ms to me.
 
As far as the technical discussion goes, watching Kent go through brain cramps just like when I got forced to learn the basics of the base stations is entertaining.

Ummm... I wasn't "forced to learn the basics of the base stations." I'm an Electrical Engineering major. I learned that stuff in school, long before I was an AT&T customer. (Actually, I was a Verizon customer at the time...)

And, as someone who, until recently, traveled the country extensively as well as someone with some technical knowledge, I can tell you that from both a theoretical and a practical standpoint, overall neither is better. But, in certain local areas, obviously one will often be better, and that's the one you should use.

Personally, I'm not switching unless and until I have good reason to. I do like VZ, I was a happy customer of theirs for many years, but for one thing: Their propensity to cripple cool features on handsets to force you to use workarounds that cost money so that you have to pay more. That really ****es me off. I think it was probably the reason that the iPhone wasn't on VZ in the first place, because VZ wanted more control than Apple was going to let them have. So, I left for AT&T and lucked out when Apple introduced the iPhone on AT&T's network about a year and a half later.

Now, I live in a city with GREAT coverage from both VZ and ATT, but there's no reason for me to switch, and in fact there's a great reason for me to NOT switch: On AT&T's network, I can get online while I'm on a phone call, and that's something I frequently do. Hopefully VZ realizes the error of their ways and builds out their 4G network with technology that will allow simultaneous voice and data. (Anyone know if that will be the case?)

What I wanna know is... Why does the CODEC have a tiny little white noise hiss after ringing signal on VZ's network? It's kinda interesting to this land-line guy.

At some point, they started putting a slight artificial hiss into some cell networks because with the advent of digital, everything was so perfectly silent that people would start saying "Are you there?" or hanging up because they thought the call had already dropped.
 
And, as someone who, until recently, traveled the country extensively as well as someone with some technical knowledge, I can tell you that from both a theoretical and a practical standpoint, overall neither is better. But, in certain local areas, obviously one will often be better, and that's the one you should use.

I'll agree in real-world practice, but according to base-station designers, there's significant differences.

Granted, they're biased since they don't build AT&T's. ;)

I can tell ya this... AT&T's back-end is at least a decade behind VZ's, having worked directly with both. VZ had an all-VoIP long-haul a long time before AT&T even considered it.

I couldn't discuss any of this in my previous job. But I got direct access to all of 'em. RSA keys and logins to all the large carrier CO control networks and got to see how they all did business. AT&T was awful. Stuck in the 80s. VZ of the traditional telcos was the most advanced. Global Crossing and Level 3 were a long way ahead of AT&T too.

I chased an ISDN problem at AT&T for over six years. I waited while they tried to find someone who could read the traces. Tickets opened, tickets closed, no one cared, no matter how much their own management wanted it fixed, the Union / Bell System attitude was pervasive once you hit the core switching group.

Specialists were great but had no authority nor motivation to push on anyone for anything. Projects halted and never moved again after layoffs and they never re-hired. Many folks would tell ya flat-out they were just waiting for retirement.

Around here a number of areas were grafted on when AT&T switches ran out of capacity in the late 90s, and outgoing calls require a double SS7 dip. 30 seconds for an outbound call is rediculous. They haven't made any effort to fix it.

At some point, they started putting a slight artificial hiss into some cell networks because with the advent of digital, everything was so perfectly silent that people would start saying "Are you there?" or hanging up because they thought the call had already dropped.

Well aware of comfort noise. It made problems for me in teleconferencing for the last decade, since Cisco loves to put it out the trunk side of their devices, which is utterly and definitively wrong, per ITU spec.

This is not comfort noise. If it were comfort noise it wouldn't mute. It's subtle and only on ring indicator.

Comfort noise in a 200+ line conference call from 10 people hanging off a misconfigured Cisco gateway is a significant problem when the CEO is trying to be heard during his/her earnings release conference call. ;)

VZ only has one total gaff in their back-end that I'm aware of. They chose UDP for their SS7 signalling.

That cost 'em a lot of money and time to design a separate QoS'd network nationwide just for SS7. But it's been done and working for almost ten years. Fun to do a trace and show the request never showed up, though.

But their back-end blows away AT&T's...

Our AT&T interface was still a DSU into what was essentially X.25 carried over a point-to-point data network which required specialized hardware for redundancy (V.35 physical relay switch that monitored a heartbeat created by a Solaris kernel module) and was god-awful to configure.

The new job both got me away from ever having to go to Central Offices first built in the 50s for AT&T and better, freedom from their techs who couldn't/wouldn't even configure a PC to do a 9600/8-N-1 connection to fix an outage.

I can't tell ya how many times I explained how to do that to multiple AT&T CO techs, who work daily in a building full of devices that used serial ports as backup.

You'd be shocked at how many times they couldn't figure it out, too.

Ask a VZ tech if they can console into something on a conference call, they'll say, "DTE or DCE pinout?" and then get their laptop connected.

Ask AT&T techs, they'll say "I don't have any way to do that."

Of course if AT&T engineering would have fixed their terminal servers that were racked, powered, and connected initially and then abandoned when it was found that certain Cisco 2600s had a hardware bug, instead of fixing them, we'd have fixed our stuff through those. Seven years. Never fixed it.

AT&T still used telnet everywhere too. VZ would block anything less than SSHv2 and high-encryption.

They're laughably different companies.

At the end of the day it was a motivation difference. VZ was trying a lot harder than AT&T internally.

By far the weirdest was Bell Canada. Super nice folks but culturally, nothing was ever an emergency. I had to explain to a NOC tech once that the outage we'd found (they had little monitoring) was costing them about $500K an hour.

After I asked that he page out to out VP-level contact he said, "Oh, you suppose he'd want to know about this, eh?"

Yeah buddy, I've got his cell number and would have called him myself but thought I'd follow procedure since you guys need to get someone rolling across Toronto since I know that's a dark site...!

Loved their techs though, nicest people you could ever talk to.

Worst tech ever? NYNEX. Called the CO with a massive number of T1s down. Guy actually said, "Ahh, that sounds bad. I better take my Union-guaranteed coffee break now. Hang on." He put the phone down for 30 minutes on a table in the CO. On the dot he came back, "You still there?"

Gave him the circuit IDs, he hollered across the room while covering the handset something about, "Hey what circuit did you jack into about 30 minutes ago?" All the T1s went Yellow then Green. "We don't see anything wrong with the circuit. How does your end look now?"

Telco gets old. Much happier back in the Linux server world. ;)
 
One time I couldn't get in touch with FSS on the radio to file an IFR flight plan for airborne pick-up. But, I had 3G coverage so mobile DUAT on my smartphone was available.
 
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