360 on Downwind

[AuntPeggy]

At my home drome (Orlando Executive, KORL) they generally prefer the extended downwind, but on occasion ask for a 360. My instructor drilled into me two things: Use 30 degrees of bank to get around, and roll level or a little more to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees. A shallow bank, or even standard rate turn takes up a lot of room. The roll to level to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees helps keep you oriented and clear of other's in a see and avoid environment. So far, so good and the tower has never complained (and they're not shy!).

John

That's the best suggestion I've seen on this. That's what I'll do next time.

 

[gismo]

At my home drome (Orlando Executive, KORL) they generally prefer the extended downwind, but on occasion ask for a 360. My instructor drilled into me two things: Use 30 degrees of bank to get around, and roll level or a little more to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees. A shallow bank, or even standard rate turn takes up a lot of room. The roll to level to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees helps keep you oriented and clear of other's in a see and avoid environment. So far, so good and the tower has never complained (and they're not shy!).

John

While I agree that a 30 degree bank will keep you a lot closer to the airport, Aunt Peggy seemed to be concerned about maintaining altitude in a turn that steep and I see nothing wrong with a shallower turn. I really doubt that ATC expects something faster than a standard rate turn if even that and IMO pitch control is much easier in a full 360 turn with less than 30 degrees of bank, especially if you don't adjust trim in the turn.

At least we agree on the occasional wings level thing.

 

[dmccormack]

While I agree that a 30 degree bank will keep you a lot closer to the airport, Aunt Peggy seemed to be concerned about maintaining altitude in a turn that steep and I see nothing wrong with a shallower turn. I really doubt that ATC expects something faster than a standard rate turn

30 degree bank is steep?

Most GA SEL airplanes were designed so that the airplane is stable in a 30 degree bank -- little or no overbanking tendency, very little increase in load factor, and will remain in the 30 degree bank with little control input.

 

[jesse]

30 degree bank is steep?

Most GA SEL airplanes were designed so that the airplane is stable in a 30 degree bank -- little or no overbanking tendency, very little increase in load factor, and will remain in the 30 degree bank with little control input.

It isn't *steep* but it isn't exactly *shallow* either. I agree with Lance, less is probably easier if the person is struggling in the first place.

 

[dmccormack]

It isn't *steep* but it isn't exactly *shallow* either. I agree with Lance, less is probably easier if the person is struggling in the first place.

Then the 30 degree bank practice should be happening out in a practice area until that private pilot is comfortable and can do them every time, +/- 100 feet (IAW the PP PTS).

 

[Skip Miller]

Then the 30 degree bank practice should be happening out in a practice area until that private pilot is comfortable and can do them every time, +/- 100 feet

I agree a PP-ASEL should be able to do one to these standards but...

(IAW the PP PTS).

I am unaware of any PTS requirement for a 30* "steep" turn.

-Skip

 

[dmccormack]

I agree a PP-ASEL should be able to do one to these standards but...



I am unaware of any PTS requirement for a 30* "steep" turn.

-Skip

Right... the steep turn (45 degree) standard is +/- 100, so a PP flying a 30 degree bank must certainly meet this minimal standard.

 

[jesse]

Then the 30 degree bank practice should be happening out in a practice area until that private pilot is comfortable and can do them every time, +/- 100 feet (IAW the PP PTS).

You're probably right there. Back to the point--you really don't have to be doing 30 degrees to do a 360 under VFR when requested. Do whatever works--standard rate should be fine. Standard rate != 30 degrees for most of us.

I'm not a guy that thinks people should be afraid of banking in the pattern--as I just bank whatever I need and don't really care how steep it is. Make it go where you want to go.

 

[KennyFlys]

For beginning pilots, 30 degrees may seem steep. It's the edge of where most begin to feel the load and about the point when you need a bit of back-pressure to maintain level flight.

 

[Everskyward]

For beginning pilots, 30 degrees may seem steep. It's the edge of where most begin to feel the load and about the point when you need a bit of back-pressure to maintain level flight.

It probably depends on what you mean by "beginning". I would expect a private pilot to be able to do a 30 degree 360 without too many problems. In this case, though, I wouldn't get too hung up on the specific bank angle.

 

[AuntPeggy]

My local control tower (HPN) requests 360s on downwind from GA aircraft. I don't like to do it because they are disorienting. The first one is bad enough, the second one right after it is nearly always difficult and forget about the third, I have passed my workload limit. I once suggested that I could reduce speed for spacing and was told that was unacceptable. 360s are what they use for spacing.

On one occasion, when the second 360 was requested, I just asked to leave the pattern and the class D because I knew it just wouldn't work.

What else can be done in this very busy airspace?

I do the 360s looking out the window and really don't like losing sight of the runway while on downwind. I'm always concerned (since we have crossing runways, but not at 90*) about getting too close or too far away or lining back up on the wrong one. I'm also concerned about maintaining altitude. I do glance at the heading indicator, but am more concerned about watching out the window. Knowing there is another airplane out there that is close enough to require the maneuver also makes me nervous, too.

At my home drome (Orlando Executive, KORL) they generally prefer the extended downwind, but on occasion ask for a 360. My instructor drilled into me two things: Use 30 degrees of bank to get around, and roll level or a little more to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees. A shallow bank, or even standard rate turn takes up a lot of room. The roll to level to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees helps keep you oriented and clear of other's in a see and avoid environment. So far, so good and the tower has never complained (and they're not shy!).

John

That's the best suggestion I've seen on this. That's what I'll do next time.

I'm not actually a brand-new pilot. It's just that sometimes ATC asks for something that I don't feel is prudent. This is one of them.

Certainly, turns about a point, when the point is a silo 17 miles from civilization, is much more comfortable than a 360 in the pattern with other traffic despite their being basically the same maneuver.

 

[dmccormack]

You're probably right there. Back to the point--you really don't have to be doing 30 degrees to do a 360 under VFR when requested. Do whatever works--standard rate should be fine. Standard rate != 30 degrees for most of us.

A Standard Rate turn is 3 degrees per second (thus 2 minute 360) and thus a function of TAS.

A good rule of thumb (not perfect, but close) is 10% of the airspeed + 6.

So if TAS = 110, angle of bank would be 11+6= 17 degrees

 

[jsstevens]

A Standard Rate turn is 3 degrees per second (thus 2 minute 360) and thus a function of TAS.

A good rule of thumb (not perfect, but close) is 10% of the airspeed + 6.

So if TAS = 110, angle of bank would be 11+6= 17 degrees

I never saw that rule of thumb before. It's certainly on the money for the 172's I fly. I'll have to check it out in the Arrow next time up.

Thanks!
John

 

[KennyFlys]

It probably depends on what you mean by "beginning". I would expect a private pilot to be able to do a 30 degree 360 without too many problems. In this case, though, I wouldn't get too hung up on the specific bank angle.

Students... primary training.

 

[PittsDriver]

When you fly a tight pattern and land at nearly twice the speed of other traffic in the pattern, 360s on the downwind become bread and butter pattern stuff. I always do them to turn back overtop the runway so I'm not going away from the airport. It just makes more since than flying a XC pattern or announcing "Pitts on short final" when the other aircraft has just landed.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Thanks to everyone.

Today, after flying in from the west to HPN, I was joining the left downwind for 34 and was informed I was number 5 to land. Moments later, tower said this wasn't going to work and asked for a wide 360*. I concentrated on doing the standard rate turn you guys suggested and it felt really good because this is a maneuver I became familiar with in training. When I rejoined the downwind, it was a non-event. Well, it would have been, except that at that moment I was told to make a short approach, #2 behind the jet. I turned base inside the apartment complex while the jet was still some distance further out than me, but managed to lose speed and altitude well enough to stop and exit the runway short of the jet's landing spot.

Just before turning me over to Ground, Tower said, "Good job. Thanks for the help." Some days are great days.

360s are an easy maneuver if not rushed or unstable. If you're becoming disoriented, you may be trying to turn too steep. Keep your rate of turn to a standard rate so a full turn will take two minutes. Make use of the Turn Coordinator and the Heading Indicator while maintaining a level altitude until continued to land. Keep yourself coordinated with rudder and the turn will be smoother. With that, you shouldn't have any sense of disorientation.

If the controller asks for a "quick 360" still make it standard rate. If he/she wants you to speed up the turn after you're in it, declare "Unable." Maybe they will work things out differently or rearrange sequential spacing on future approaches.

But, the key factors... standard rate and ball centered.

Do you have a heading bug? If so why not set it to your downwind heading?

I agree the common thing I see students do is rush this turn. Controllers typically expect standard rate turns. So when they ask for a 360 they are expecting it to take 2 minutes.


If you rush it you my just have to do another one.

Brian

I was coming in from the Tappan Zee bridge and had just turned onto left downwind 34. Due to radio traffic I was expecting the 360, but "4508x, can you make a short approach?" Yes, cleared for the same, full flaps, full slip, on the numbers and off the runway at Kilo. Happy controller!

-Skip

 

[KennyFlys]

Thanks to everyone.

Today, after flying in from the west to HPN, I was joining the left downwind for 34 and was informed I was number 5 to land. Moments later, tower said this wasn't going to work and asked for a wide 360*. I concentrated on doing the standard rate turn you guys suggested and it felt really good because this is a maneuver I became familiar with in training. When I rejoined the downwind, it was a non-event. Well, it would have been, except that at that moment I was told to make a short approach, #2 behind the jet. I turned base inside the apartment complex while the jet was still some distance further out than me, but managed to lose speed and altitude well enough to stop and exit the runway short of the jet's landing spot.

Just before turning me over to Ground, Tower said, "Good job. Thanks for the help." Some days are great days.

Good deal. I'm glad that worked out for you. Standard rate should be the standard unless otherwise is needed.

If you were not sure of the short approach, again the "Unable" is your option. They can't force you to comply with a demand that makes you uncomfortable. But the downside is they may vector you away or have you do other circles. It's good to get the practice in making maneuvers that are sometimes needed.

A couple weeks ago, approach had us come up the west side and do circles over downtown Austin waiting for a few jets to get in and out of the way. So, I had my student spend it doing steep turns from 3,000 feet while descending and the airport just two miles away. After a few turns, the controller said he may have a slot for us in a bit. He gave us a position on an incoming 73 and to follow that aircraft in. Then he said he did not tell that jet we were out there circling asked us not to make too rapid of turn toward the that aircraft or the airport so we don't scare him.

When the time came, we dove for the approach asked for the 73's touchdown point. We crossed the threshold at about 120 and slowed down to land just beyond "Golf" where the 73 touched town then stopped in time for the taxiway, all with no flaps. I like it when those come up because I love the challenge and it's good for the student to learn for those times it's needed.

 

[kkoran]

I turned base inside the apartment complex while the jet was still some distance further out than me, but managed to lose speed and altitude well enough to stop and exit the runway short of the jet's landing spot.

A small jet, I hope. From a wake turbulence perspective, one would normally want to land beyond the jet's touchdown point. I was late returning from a solo cross country and landed too close behind a DC-9--an experience I don't want to repeat.