3 Point v. "Full Stall" Landings

rottydaddy said:
I was able to try both types of landings in respectable crosswinds in a Champ, and didn't see any clear advantage to the wheel landing... the most important thing, as with any nosedragger I've flown, is to keep that upwind wing down as needed to correct drift.
As for weathervaning on the rollout, well, whether you wheel it or 3-point it,there's still a moment when the rudder isn't biting much air, yet the tailwheel isn't biting much runway. You're just plain vulnerable in a x-wind at that moment, so you have to stay ahead of the airplane.

The guy who taught me to fly taildraggers (and in the process taught me a great deal about landings in general) told me in his half-century flying these types he still prefers to try a 3-pointer first, regardless of conditions. If he runs out of rudder, he might try tapping a brake a little. And of all the traits I brought with me to my lessons, he seemed to be most pleased with my inherent willingness to go around.


I agree 100% about not coasting along... in strong or gusty winds, you can't relax until it's tied down. :D
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The primary advantage of a wheel landing in a plane like a Champ is the improved forward visibility, something of significant interest if there's any chance of critters running across the runway. Some aircraft (AT-6 comes to mind) have issues with the rudder losing effectiveness in the 3pt attitude prompting a preference for wheel landings in them.
 
gismo said:
The primary advantage of a wheel landing in a plane like a Champ is the improved forward visibility, something of significant interest if there's any chance of critters running across the runway. Some aircraft (AT-6 comes to mind) have issues with the rudder losing effectiveness in the 3pt attitude prompting a preference for wheel landings in them.
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I'm tall so can see most of what's happening ahead until final roundout.

Then I do my Lindbergh imitation and look out the side. :D
 
dmccormack said:
Are you kidding? I made the mistake of centerlining a 150' runway -- never again! I offset so I can line up the centerline to spot drift off the side window.
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I got in the exact same habit. There's no reason to land on the centerline unless you're flying off a narrow runway that does you some damage if you don't. You just need to be able to put the plane where you want it. Whenever I deal with strong crosswinds, I'll intentionally put it near the leeward edge of the runway so I have the maximum amount of room to deal with weathervaning from gusts and such. When we're students, we learn to put it on the centerline so we can see how our skills are progressing, but once we have the ability to put it where we want it, that centerline has no practical application for us. Heck, on a big runway, say 150'+ wide, in a typical light GA plane that lands at 65kts or less, I can gain another approximately 10 kts of crosswind ability by using the leeward side of the threshold and landing with a bit of a diagonal.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm tall so can see most of what's happening ahead until final roundout.

Then I do my Lindbergh imitation and look out the side. :D
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Lindbergh had a periscope. The Fouga Magistrar has one for the back seat as well so the instructor can see what's going on.
 
Henning said:
I got in the exact same habit. There's no reason to land on the centerline unless you're flying off a narrow runway that does you some damage if you don't. You just need to be able to put the plane where you want it. Whenever I deal with strong crosswinds, I'll intentionally put it near the leeward edge of the runway so I have the maximum amount of room to deal with weathervaning from gusts and such. When we're students, we learn to put it on the centerline so we can see how our skills are progressing, but once we have the ability to put it where we want it, that centerline has no practical application for us. Heck, on a big runway, say 150'+ wide, in a typical light GA plane that lands at 65kts or less, I can gain another approximately 10 kts of crosswind ability by using the leeward side of the threshold and landing with a bit of a diagonal.
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I centerline because that's where I want the airplane to land, and its good form. If I can't put my Luscombe on the centerline, I need to go elsewhere.

If I can't land centerline on a 150' wide runway, then I can't land at the various grass/short field functions that we attend. I can't land at my favorite grass field fly-in and win the spot landing contest or do well in the flour bombing. I can't land at Lakeland or Oshkosh.

I can land across the runway. But that's a different story.

I don't understand this fear of crosswind. Land on the windward wheel, keep the correction, and there is no issue.

I do fear turbulence.

In my light taildragger, in turbulence, I often can't make it to the runway. The jostling is too much. I have some unpleasant memories of unnatural angles of attack.:yikes: Try a go-around or two or go somewhere else.

BTW, my base is mountainous/hilly and subject to windshear.

Dan, this too, will come in time.

Deb
 
N1347B said:
BTW, my base is mountainous/hilly and subject to windshear.

Dan, this too, will come in time.

Deb
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I can nail centerline anytime I want -- but on a 150' wide runway in my little Chief I lose a reference if I put the tailwheel on the centerline (pretty hard to see the edge 70+ feet away). So now I offset on wide runways so I can spot drift and neutralize it.

We are at the base of the Allegheny ridge that runs through SW PA and WV. There's not a flat spot more than a few acres until you get deep into Ohio. Nothing but bumps with any wind over 10 knots.

20 knots is nothing in Lancaster County and east. It's a bit different here.
 
N1347B said:
I do fear turbulence.

In my light taildragger, in turbulence, I often can't make it to the runway. The jostling is too much. I have some unpleasant memories of unnatural angles of attack.:yikes: Try a go-around or two or go somewhere else.
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Yes... when the wind is huffing and puffing, it can take some of the fun out of landing little taildraggers; much more so than any steady crosswind.
I've been lucky so far myself, but I've seen some final approaches that looked like epic battles.

Like this one... :yikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omChsodSdUs
 
The champ I fly is based out of a grass strip that is pretty much just cut out of the trees. The other day there was a nice x-wind that would suddenly just disappear about 50ft agl thanks to the trees. On the third try, I finally won my epic battle.
 
I don't understand what the critical AOA of any wing has to do with a "full stall three point" landing.
At a given speed (35-ish in the 1939 65CA) if all 3 wheels are on the ground there can be no further flight due to no increase in AOA being possible...
The Hiperbipe will, (at 65 or so) touch down in a 3-point attitude and give a slight skip if it's a MPH or two too fast but by holding the stick back I can ride out the skip and I know she can't fly anymore. If the tail wheel spring was to break and the AOA suddenly increased I'm certain she would become unstuck again...:yikes:
"Full Stall Landing" in a taildragger refers not to the AOA at which the wing WILL fly but the touchdown of all three wheels at (more-or-less) the same time at a speed and at the angle dictated by the landing gear geometry that allows no further flight.

As to wheel landings; I prefer them in the planes I fly...my "trick" is to only keep the tail in the air (for rudder/crosswind control) until I know the lowering of the tail WON"T cause me to take flight again then I "pin the tail" and don't let the stick forward 'till I'm in the hanger...
.
My dad taught me the "wobble" trick when wheel landing an un-framiliar bird (slight left-right roll motion till sumpthin' hit's dirt). He said he learnd it during his stint with the RAF in the '40's.


JMPO and YMMV;

Chris
 
Hiperbiper said:
"Full Stall Landing" in a taildragger refers not to the AOA at which the wing WILL fly but the touchdown of all three wheels at (more-or-less) the same time at a speed and at the angle dictated by the landing gear geometry that allows no further flight.
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That may be your definition but it's not a true "full stall" landing and for the most part this whole thread is about the difference between the two. Part of the confusion is that many pilots were taught that a 3pt landing is a "full stall" landing in any taildragger but the reality is that many if not most taildraggers stall at a higher AoA than the 3pt attitude.
 
Hiperbiper said:
the touchdown of all three wheels at (more-or-less) the same time at a speed and at the angle dictated by the landing gear geometry that allows no further flight. Chris
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The description of the perfect landing :D.

I think I heard angels singing when I read that.

Deb
 
dmccormack said:
I can nail centerline anytime I want -- but on a 150' wide runway in my little Chief I lose a reference if I put the tailwheel on the centerline (pretty hard to see the edge 70+ feet away). So now I offset on wide runways so I can spot drift and neutralize it.

We are at the base of the Allegheny ridge that runs through SW PA and WV. There's not a flat spot more than a few acres until you get deep into Ohio. Nothing but bumps with any wind over 10 knots.

20 knots is nothing in Lancaster County and east. It's a bit different here.
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Henry doesn't centerline. Drives me nuts when I fly with him. He likes to land to the left since most of our crosswind is from the left. Says it gives him room for drift. Then I tell him he's not supposed to drift. Then he asks, "Who's flying this airplane and who is going to walk home?" :redface:

He wheel lands. I three-point.
He's painted. I'm polished.
He has a round rudder. I have a square.

Life is good.

Deb
 
kyleb said:
I've got that problem too, but don't think it is aviation related.
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Your landings were quite nice the other day. We're still installing my new alternator and removing the offensive wiring.

I thought about taking Henry's 8A up for a while, but it's bad form to fly your husband's airplane while he's on the ground repairing yours. :yesnod:

Deb
 
N1347B said:
Your landings were quite nice the other day. We're still installing my new alternator and removing the offensive wiring.

I thought about taking Henry's 8A up for a while, but it's bad form to fly your husband's airplane while he's on the ground repairing yours. :yesnod:

Deb
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I noticed your hangar door was open, but I was too busy getting my aviating in to stop. It was my first chance to fly in a month, so I dropped in on about 1/2 the airports in N. GA and did a landing or three - all 3 pointers and mediocre at best. At your place, I had to put in a monster slip on final every time around the pattern just to hit the runway.

Then, on one of my takeoffs a flock of 10-15 small birds flew right across the runway just after I lifted off. They were not seeing and avoiding at all...
 
And as with all such discussions, there will never be a point when all the flycrap is picked out of the pepper. Maybe we should follow this with a similar thread about whether altitude is controlled throttle or elevator.



gismo said:
That may be your definition but it's not a true "full stall" landing and for the most part this whole thread is about the difference between the two. Part of the confusion is that many pilots were taught that a 3pt landing is a "full stall" landing in any taildragger but the reality is that many if not most taildraggers stall at a higher AoA than the 3pt attitude.
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wabower said:
And as with all such discussions, there will never be a point when all the flycrap is picked out of the pepper. Maybe we should follow this with a similar thread about whether altitude is controlled throttle or elevator.
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Can't this be said about every thread about a contentious issue?

I submit that the term "full stall landing" is imprecise.

"3 point landing" is far more descriptive, and all tailwheel pilots that have chimed in so far seem to agree a 3 point may or may not be coterminous with a stall.

So I plan on dropping "full stall landing" from my vocabulary. It's either a 3 point or a wheel landing, and the 3 point should happen at the airspeed and attitude that will not support further flight.
 
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wabower said:
And as with all such discussions, there will never be a point when all the flycrap is picked out of the pepper. Maybe we should follow this with a similar thread about whether altitude is controlled throttle or elevator.
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Wayne,

You are such a spoil sport. The weather stinks, and frankly, it's fun beating a dead horse :D.

Deb
 
dmccormack said:
Yeah....edited.

Thanks.
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It still describes the 3 point as a landing that should happen at an airspeed and attitude that will not permit further flight. Unless I'm seriously missing something - that would be the attitude that is hitting tail first for you.

Perhaps you mean something more like: "The 3-point will happen at an attitude and airspeed that causes the main-gear and tailwheel to touch-down simultaneously"
 
jesse said:
It still describes the 3 point as a landing that should happen at an airspeed and attitude that will not permit further flight. Unless I'm seriously missing something - that would be the attitude that is hitting tail first for you.

Perhaps you mean something more like: "The 3-point will happen at an attitude and airspeed that causes the main-gear and tailwheel to touch-down simultaneously"
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That's true, but when I touch down in the 3 point attitude there's an immediate reduction of speed (energy) caused by rolling friction.

Thus the ideal airspeed will be one which permits simultaneous three point contact that will commence a significant reduction in speed. We go from minimal airspeed required for controlled flight in the 3 point attitude to less than that once the wheels are rolling.

Way too complicated, of course. But a lot is happening in the transition from flying to rolling.
 
dmccormack said:
That's true, but when I touch down in the 3 point attitude there's an immediate reduction of speed (energy) caused by rolling friction.

Thus the ideal airspeed will be one which permits simultaneous three point contact that will commence a significant reduction in speed. We go from minimal airspeed required for controlled flight in the 3 point attitude to less than that once the wheels are rolling.

Way too complicated, of course. But a lot is happening in the transition from flying to rolling.
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I've been re-launched by gusts after VERY significant reduction in speed following a 3-point landing. Trust me, it's definitely possible. Ugly, but possible ;)

A 3-point landing is no more a landing that "doesn't permit further flight" than it is a "full-stall" landing. It's simply a landing that has all three wheels touching down simultaneously.

The only way to not permit further flight is by having an AOA above critical AOA, which you're not going to get in a 3-point landing, nor will you have after a full stall landing and subsequent nose-lowering to the 3-point attitude. The only airplanes I KNOW of that present a higher-than-critical AOA while 3-point on the ground are the early Staggerwings...a full-stall landing with the mains touching would still have the tailwheel off the ground.

Keep it simple. A 3-point landing is a 3-point landing, and that's it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Keep it simple. A 3-point landing is a 3-point landing, and that's it.
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And the way to get a good one is to listen carefully to the speed of the whoosha-whoosha sound on final. The noise is impossible to miss, once you learn to listen for it, and if you hold the speed necessary for them to be evenly spaced and rhythmic, good landings usually result.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I've been re-launched by gusts after VERY significant reduction in speed following a 3-point landing. Trust me, it's definitely possible. Ugly, but possible ;)

A 3-point landing is no more a landing that "doesn't permit further flight" than it is a "full-stall" landing. It's simply a landing that has all three wheels touching down simultaneously.

The only way to not permit further flight is by having an AOA above critical AOA, which you're not going to get in a 3-point landing, nor will you have after a full stall landing and subsequent nose-lowering to the 3-point attitude. The only airplanes I KNOW of that present a higher-than-critical AOA while 3-point on the ground are the early Staggerwings...a full-stall landing with the mains touching would still have the tailwheel off the ground.

Keep it simple. A 3-point landing is a 3-point landing, and that's it.
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True -- since you can be rolling fast enough to fly if you give a bit up elevator (don't ask how I know that.... :D)
 
wabower said:
And the way to get a good one is to listen carefully to the speed of the whoosha-whoosha sound on final. The noise is impossible to miss, once you learn to listen for it, and if you hold the speed necessary for them to be evenly spaced and rhythmic, good landings usually result.
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Hunh?

The only sound I listen for is the rumble-rumble when all 3 wheels are rolling...

Which sound is the whoosha-whoosha?
 
wabower said:
And the way to get a good one is to listen carefully to the speed of the whoosha-whoosha sound on final. The noise is impossible to miss, once you learn to listen for it, and if you hold the speed necessary for them to be evenly spaced and rhythmic, good landings usually result.
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dmccormack said:
Hunh?

The only sound I listen for is the rumble-rumble when all 3 wheels are rolling...

Which sound is the whoosha-whoosha?
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I fly a Maule...so it's actually more of an "oil can clunk" for me ;)
 
Fly one 10 knots fast, listen to prop and airframe harmonics. With power at idle, you'll be able to hear the airplane driving the prop. Then fly one too slow (maybe 5 knots) and listen again. When the speed is just right the whoosha-whoosha is easy to identify.

dmccormack;547710]Hunh?

The only sound I listen for is the rumble-rumble when all 3 wheels are rolling...

Which sound is the whoosha-whoosha?[/quote]
 
I have quite a bit of time in many types of taildraggers. All I have to say is, "it depends on what you're flying."

Captain Folsom used to say, "Airplanes talk to you. Now STFU and listen."
 
wabower said:
Fly one 10 knots fast, listen to prop and airframe harmonics. With power at idle, you'll be able to hear the airplane driving the prop. Then fly one too slow (maybe 5 knots) and listen again. When the speed is just right the whoosha-whoosha is easy to identify.
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Gotchya -- was thrown off by the woosha-woosha.

:rolleyes:
 
jesse said:
It still describes the 3 point as a landing that should happen at an airspeed and attitude that will not permit further flight. Unless I'm seriously missing something - that would be the attitude that is hitting tail first for you.

Perhaps you mean something more like: "The 3-point will happen at an attitude and airspeed that causes the main-gear and tailwheel to touch-down simultaneously"
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During flight training I had to demonstrate approach-to-landing "stalls"...
The deck angle never got close to the wings critical AOA. Yet even at this lower deck angle the wings of the Grumman would no longer support the weight of the airplane at a given speed and the "stall" occured.
Never got close to the airflow detachment angle, the wing just, at X speed, refused to lift the airplane anymore and gravity took over. I was taught this was a stall.

Say an tailwheel airplane has a deck angle of 13* sitting on the gear on the ground.
Go up and put the deck angle at 13* at 1000'. Maintaining the deck angle throttle up. With increasing thrust you will climb.
Throttle to achive level flight keeping 13*.
Now pull the throttle back while keeping the 13* angle. At some point in time the plane will cease to remain in level flight...
Is this a stall? If not what is it? If it is then an airplane with a 13* deck angle when all 3 wheels touch down at a certain speed IS stalled at touchdown and the 3-point IS a full-stall touchdown.

Notice how STOL aircraft (Wilga's, Feisler Storch, Birddog) had really obcene deck angles on the ground? The designers made sure the airplanes they designed had the wing STALL (not un-hinge the airflow) at a very low ground speed and at a high angle. Then they stuck the gear under them at that angle...

If you can stall a C-150 at +5* at a certain airspeed what does the critical AOA of 17* mean?

Chris
 
Hiperbiper said:
During flight training I had to demonstrate approach-to-landing "stalls"...
The deck angle never got close to the wings critical AOA. Yet even at this lower deck angle the wings of the Grumman would no longer support the weight of the airplane at a given speed and the "stall" occured.
Never got close to the airflow detachment angle, the wing just, at X speed, refused to lift the airplane anymore and gravity took over. I was taught this was a stall.
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The deck angle does not equal the angle of attack. You likely were exceeding the critical angle of attack.

Hiperbiper said:
Now pull the throttle back while keeping the 13* angle. At some point in time the plane will cease to remain in level flight...
Is this a stall? If not what is it?
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If you pull the throttle back and attempt to maintain 13 degrees nose up you will have to continually increase back pressure on the stick. As you do this the angle of attack increases and the wing stalls.

Hiperbiper said:
If you can stall a C-150 at +5* at a certain airspeed what does the critical AOA of 17* mean?
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You can have a deck angle of +5 degrees and an angle of attack of 17 degrees simultaneously.
You can have a deck angle of -10 degrees and an angle of attack of 17 degrees simultaneously.
You can have a deck angle of +60 degrees and an angle of attack of 4 degrees simultaneously.

Suggest you buy and read:
http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder-Explanation-Art-Flying/dp/0070362408
 
bbchien said:
I have quite a bit of time in many types of taildraggers. All I have to say is, "it depends on what you're flying."

Captain Folsom used to say, "Airplanes talk to you. Now STFU and listen."
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+1

:smile:.

Deb
 
Hiperbiper said:
Notice how STOL aircraft (Wilga's, Feisler Storch, Birddog) had really obcene deck angles on the ground? The designers made sure the airplanes they designed had the wing STALL (not un-hinge the airflow) at a very low ground speed and at a high angle. Then they stuck the gear under them at that angle...

Chris
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No...I never noticed that. This doesn't appear to be a "really obscene" deck angle to me...

800px-Fi-156_Storch_left.jpg


It is long-legged, but that's to give more throw to the shock absorption...you'd be amazed at some of the places they'd takeoff and land.

This one doesn't seem excessively obscene, either...

L19-2.jpg
 
My two-seat dragger will land whenever I want, in almost any attitude and most speeds. Just get in position over the runway and very close, then pull the spoiler handle ever so slightly. Chirp-chirp.
 
wabower said:
My two-seat dragger will land whenever I want, in almost any attitude and most speeds. Just get in position over the runway and very close, then pull the spoiler handle ever so slightly. Chirp-chirp.
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I was gonna ask if the L-2 still had it's spoilers...the one I flew 20-some years ago did, but most of them that I've seen had them removed.

dmccormack said:
Spoiler?

That's cheating, right? :nono:
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No...that's knowing your equipment and using it :D
 
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