2nd High Perf/Complex lesson (long)

[AdamZ]

Well today was lesson number 2. My CFI was late getting to the field, Family obliations, he apologized perfusely, but that was ok gave me extra tome to read the POH. With a retract there are so many more numbers to remember. Gear up clean gear down clear Vx vs Vy. Gear down speed Gear up speed yada yada.
We werent sure we were going to go because winds were forcast up to 30mph. As it turns out they were running 270 @ 15 G 21 Var 220-290 at the worst. Losta runways around here are 6-24 so it would make for some good practice and not exceed the x-wind component of the Lance.
I reviewed all the numbers and procedures over the past week. To start the lesson we did two landings at Wings then off to some cruise set up out to the west toward Pottstown. Ceiling was broken at about 4000 so we set up at 2500. climb, rough trim and at altitude go to 24 squared. Then off to Trenton NJ KTTN for some more pattern and approcach work with huge runways. Winds were screaming out of the west and we cooked over to Trenton at a ground speed of about 170mph. I really had to trim it forward just to keep it from climbing. Anyway once at Trenton wind was 290 @ 15 G 20. I threw in a heck of a lot of right alieron and an equal amount of left rudder to straighten out the nose I was right on centerline until the flare. The plane just kept wanting to go off left. It was getting very frustrating. Don't worry I kept it on the pavement but it was driving me nuts. Don't know what else to do but line my approach up on the far right side of the runway to end up on center line. It has been a while since I have done much cross wind work but I really thought I was doing procedure correct and I still drifted. GRrrrrrrr. The CFI said he prefers the technique of crabbing to hold center line rather than the cross control. That did seem to work a bit better but not enough to make me happy.

Trenton has a precision approach so I was able to determine distance to land and depart ( Trying to keep it well under 2000 to make it up to Ed Freds Pickett-Grooms opening.
Anyway we got in 6 landings at Trenton. It was windy enough we had the entire class "D" to ourselves and a 321 also doing X-wind work. When we weren't doing T&Gs the tower let us do a 180 and back taxi to save time. He even asked us if we were having fun. On of the landings on downwind I put the gear down and oh no nothing nada in the green. CFII says what could it be. So I look for tripped breakers...all are good. ( I know they just put a new gear motor in) Oh yea while waiting for the CFI I read about the rheostate for the panel and instrument lights dimming out the gear lights. So I rotate the rheostate and on come three green lights.

One thing that did trouble me, I would rotate at aobut 75kts and I really had to pull the yoke back to lift her up and it took a while. I'm wondering if I have to trim back further than I am used to. It is a straight tail and we had two of us and a full load of fuel. Perhaps if I had some weigh in the back. I am having trouble figuring that one out. POH says rotate at 52 to 65kts. I tell ya I just don't see it.

Then off to over the abandoned steel mills for slow flight. Slow to 129 Kts. Gear down, then sequentially all three notches of flaps. 55 to 60 kts held 2500 and did 360 degree turns in each direction. I was really amazed at how well I or perhaps it was the plane held altitude and speed. It is bizzar to need right rudder to turn left, just dosen't make sense but thats the way it was.

Then off the KPNE for one T&G 0n 24 Wind was 290 @ 17 G 20. On the way to PNE ( very very close we ran into a line of clouds with bases down aound 1900'. Just one bank thats all so take out manifold pressure drop down to pattern altitude and under the cloud and in for the approcah. Finally the centerline was PEGGED.

On the T&G I made the mistake of building up to much airspeed ( 7000' runway and did't want to put it up till out of usefull asphault. So good lesson Gear would not go up. Pull it up drop the speed down a few kts and then bring up the gear Doh. Then back to Wings .

All together 2.1 on the Hobbs 10 Takeoffs and Landings. Some Slow flight, simulated electrical glitches, demostration of gear retraction speed issues. and cross winds. I have to say this and I don't mean to imply that flying the Lance is "easy" but I feel that once my brain and hands started working together so that I didn't feel like the Lance was taking me for a ride, I felt pretty good. I am thinking that in some ways it is easier than say an Archer, primarily stabilty wise. Last time I described it as a ship with a heavy lead keel. I still think thats a good way to put it. Its like the weight of the Lance helped it cut through the turbulence like a knife through butter. Yeah there were some bumps but all in all the approaches were pretty straight forward and like I was on that rail to the numbers. In the Archer I would have been bounced all over the place. Besides the Speed and Useful load the stability is a beneift I didn't anticipate.

Next week will be focused on emergency procedures. I also want to work on power settings. I understand that in the pattern you should stick with one powe setting until short final. I think I'm putzing around with the manifold pressue to much in the pattern, a few inches of MP out then put them back in etc. I think I need to stick with one setting and perhaps work with trim rather than the MP.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Cool. I think you would know if the trim was not set, by what happens during the climb out. If you are doing a lot of trimming after liftoff then yes it probably is not set right. If it is alright, then you just have to get used to a larger yoke force required at Vr (weightlifting?).
Re: rotation speed.... not all airplanes liftoff at the moment of rotation. So the lower speeds in the book may be correct. It might be that you just have to use the published speeds and accept that 'nothing is happening' until further acceleration occurs. I think that is what your query refers to anyway.
For airspeeds I see nothing wrong with making a 1"x4" cheat sheet and sticking it to the panel. It will help you memorize them. You are right about not jockeying the power settings in the pattern, imo.
Nice story Adam.

 

[spiderweb]

Very nice write-up. I love flying the Saratoga (Lance--same thing). I think that some of the things you are asking about are normal. I do think that the bird is easier to fly. I don't think it was probably as out of trim as you thought it was. The controls are just definitely heavy, that's all. Eventually you get the weight out. I like the idea of consolidating a power setting on downwind. Flaps and gear take care of your descent. I reduce power on final, though. Bleed most of the rest of it off on short final just before beginning the flare.

I LOVE that plane.

I need some money.

 

[spiderweb]

BTW, what was your Vref on final, and what does your CFII suggest flying ILSs at?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Cool. I think you would know if the trim was not set, by what happens during the climb out. If you are doing a lot of trimming after liftoff then yes it probably is not set right. If it is alright, then you just have to get used to a larger yoke force required at Vr (weightlifting?).
Re: rotation speed.... not all airplanes liftoff at the moment of rotation. So the lower speeds in the book may be correct. It might be that you just have to use the published speeds and accept that 'nothing is happening' until further acceleration occurs. I think that is what your query refers to anyway.
For airspeeds I see nothing wrong with making a 1"x4" cheat sheet and sticking it to the panel. It will help you memorize them. You are right about not jockeying the power settings in the pattern, imo.
Nice story Adam.

A nice example of rotation with climbout lag was observed while sitting on the porch at Sulfur Creek Ranch, Idaho a while ago. The grass runway runs tightly between the lodge and the barn and horse corral fences which are at midfield. The owner's Turbo 206 could be heard rolling on the strip at full power and as we looked off our shoulders BAM, the nose popped up smartly and just stayed there unwaveringly until farther down the strip the climbout commenced. DC3's even squeezed into that strip with the boys from the WWII era and afterward seeking to get some ...er ...recreation, but I digress.

Another time was with the plane pointing down between the hangar rows after start up when we heard a thick but clear and professional German accent announce the takeoff roll of a flight of 2 at BFI. About the time the combined jets' roars from the big, empty, Boeing passenger jet with a Fokker of some kind about 20 feet off his right wing and towards us reached its apex BAM, the Fokker popped up and just stayed right there solidly nose high on the mains until they both climbed out steeply together in tight formation. Those Germans were some sharp looking pilots.

 

[gismo]

One thing that did trouble me, I would rotate at aobut 75kts and I really had to pull the yoke back to lift her up and it took a while. I'm wondering if I have to trim back further than I am used to. It is a straight tail and we had two of us and a full load of fuel. Perhaps if I had some weigh in the back. I am having trouble figuring that one out. POH says rotate at 52 to 65kts. I tell ya I just don't see it.

It's been a while since I flew a Six (which IIRC feels the same on takeoff) but I think it's actually easier (as in less muscle required) to rotate at the lower speed. You won't actually take off until you gain another 10 Kt or so. If the plane is trimmed correctly it will hit something between Vx and Vy during the initial climb with no pitch force. Typically in heavier planes especially nose heavy ones like the Lance/Saratoga/Six you will have to pull pretty hard to get off the ground when the trim is set correctly. and 50 lbs of stuff in the rearmost location will definitely make this easier IME.

Then off to over the abandoned steel mills for slow flight. Slow to 129 Kts. Gear down, then sequentially all three notches of flaps. 55 to 60 kts held 2500 and did 360 degree turns in each direction. I was really amazed at how well I or perhaps it was the plane held altitude and speed. It is bizzar to need right rudder to turn left, just dosen't make sense but thats the way it was.

Then off the KPNE for one T&G 0n 24 Wind was 290 @ 17 G 20. On the way to PNE ( very very close we ran into a line of clouds with bases down aound 1900'. Just one bank thats all so take out manifold pressure drop down to pattern altitude and under the cloud and in for the approcah. Finally the centerline was PEGGED.

On the T&G I made the mistake of building up to much airspeed ( 7000' runway and did't want to put it up till out of usefull asphault. So good lesson Gear would not go up. Pull it up drop the speed down a few kts and then bring up the gear Doh. Then back to Wings.

IMO there's really no point in leaving the gear down in a single until you reach the end of the asphalt on a long runway, nor should you pull it up there on a short one. On a long runway you should be too high to descend back to the pavement and land long before reaching the end, and on a short one you might be pretty close to the ground as you pass the end. The decision to raise the gear should be based on when you have enough altitude to put it back down if the engine quits and in most singles you should also be 100 ft above any nearby obstacles in the departure path as you typically lose some climb performance while the gear cycles. Also long runway or not, you should maintain Vx or at least Vy until you have 500-1000 feet below you, and doing so you will be below Vlo when it comes time to raise the gear at the point where you transition to a cruise climb.

Next week will be focused on emergency procedures. I also want to work on power settings. I understand that in the pattern you should stick with one powe setting until short final. I think I'm putzing around with the manifold pressue to much in the pattern, a few inches of MP out then put them back in etc. I think I need to stick with one setting and perhaps work with trim rather than the MP.[/quote]

Actually, you should be shooting for a constant airspeed and glideslope once you begin the descent from pattern altitude. I agree you should be able to find a power setting that gives that on a calm day, but when the wind is strong and gusty, you do need to move the throttle in order to maintain a constant glidepath and airspeed. The trick that works for me (using power to control descent rate) is to always make a two part throttle change. If I'm sinking too fast, I'll add a few hundred RPM for 3-5 seconds and then remove most but not all of the added throttle. This gives a quick response that stops the excess sink without building up excessive energy that pushes you back up too high. Something like: +300 RPM, wait 3 seconds, -200 RPM. Chances are part of your problem is that you are used to the minimal lag that a lighter plane has in response to power changes. With a heavier airplane there's quite a bit more delay between a power increase or decrease and the effect of that showing up on the ASI or VSI and that extra lag leads to overcorrecting much like your first attempts to control a descent rate by staring at the VSI instead of watching your pitch attitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

One point on trim in a plane whose cg varies as widely as it does in a Six is that there is no single trim setting for takeoff. If you're flying with two in the front and the rest of the plane empty, you're very near the forward cg limit, and blindly following the takeoff mark on the trim is likely to leave you needing a whole lot more arm strength than you'd expect. You generally need somewhat more nose-up trim in that situation than the marks call for.

 

[Henning]

On one of the landings on downwind I put the gear down and oh no nothing nada in the green. CFII says what could it be. So I look for tripped breakers...all are good. ( I know they just put a new gear motor in) Oh yea while waiting for the CFI I read about the rheostate for the panel and instrument lights dimming out the gear lights. So I rotate the rheostate and on come three green lights.

Good catch, that one gets a lot of people in the Pipers.

One thing that did trouble me, I would rotate at aobut 75kts and I really had to pull the yoke back to lift her up and it took a while. I'm wondering if I have to trim back further than I am used to. It is a straight tail and we had two of us and a full load of fuel. Perhaps if I had some weigh in the back. I am having trouble figuring that one out. POH says rotate at 52 to 65kts. I tell ya I just don't see it..

That's why people call them runway hogs, but really they're not. It's just with full fuel and 2 up front and that engine way out there (the dissadvantage to that nose locker), you have a lot of weight out in front of the mains and not much behind it, doesn't give the tail much leverage. This is a trim sensitive aircraft with a broad CG envelope, you need to adjust your trim as load requires. Full fuel and 400lbs up front, you should be able to pick the nose up just over 60, if you can't trim back till it will. Remember, it's a Piper, you have to pull it off the ground. If you want a plane that flies itself you need a Beech .

Next week will be focused on emergency procedures. I also want to work on power settings. I understand that in the pattern you should stick with one powe setting until short final. I think I'm putzing around with the manifold pressue to much in the pattern, a few inches of MP out then put them back in etc. I think I need to stick with one setting and perhaps work with trim rather than the MP.

Yeah, power/pitch, you'll work it out eventually, personnally, I configure the plane and make continuous power and trim changes, it's just part of it to me, one hand goes up and down, one goes in and out and round about. Flying somethings is like patting your head and rubbing your stomach.

 

[jdwatson]

One point on trim in a plane whose cg varies as widely as it does in a Six is that there is no single trim setting for takeoff. If you're flying with two in the front and the rest of the plane empty, you're very near the forward cg limit, and blindly following the takeoff mark on the trim is likely to leave you needing a whole lot more arm strength than you'd expect. You generally need somewhat more nose-up trim in that situation than the marks call for.

Ditto for the T206H. Put two big guys upfront and the rest empty is a better workout than any Nautlius machine can provide. Does the Six have rudder trim ? I found out that it's not cheating to add some rudder trim on take-off.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does the Six have rudder trim ?

I believe it does.

I found out that it's not cheating to add some rudder trim on take-off.

Not only is it not cheating, it's recommended -- that's what it's there for!

 

[AirBaker]

Ditto for the T206H. Put two big guys upfront and the rest empty is a better workout than any Nautlius machine can provide. Does the Six have rudder trim ? I found out that it's not cheating to add some rudder trim on take-off.

The bag of lead shot, sewn up in a nice pouch, all the way in the back really helps too. Especially in the 206 that carries about anything you can close the doors around.

 

[NC Pilot]

The bag of lead shot, sewn up in a nice pouch, all the way in the back really helps too. Especially in the 206 that carries about anything you can close the doors around.

A folding container of water works also and can be emptied and refilled as needed.

 

[jdwatson]

How big of a pouch are we talking here ?