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Velocity173
20 years ago today
- Thread starter Velocity173
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Engine
Pre-takeoff checklist
There is a lot to learn from past mistakes. Feel like current aviation education does not reference past mistakes enough.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
I was a 60 crew chief with the first unit that went to Diyarbakir Turkey for Operation Provide Comfort(OPC) in April-June 1991. We transported General John Shalikashvili(OPC Commander), CNN and many Iraqi military members while there. I remember at age 20 looking up at those AWACS planes with the 30' diameter pulse doppler radar dome turning 6 rpm thinking how safe we were while flying over all of those manned artillery positions in northern Iraq. We were not allowed to have access to ammunition for our 38 revolver or M60 machine gun, but our Iraqi pax were carrying loaded semi-autos. I got out the year before this terrible accident.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
War is hell. The fog of war is even worse.
Blackhawk
Pre-takeoff checklist
But this was hardly war. The F-15s were not being shot at. The only Iraqi helicopters that had been in that area in some time where helicopters that were defecting. The pilots screwed up big time.
I was actually at an Air Force school (AGOS), when this took place.
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Velocity173
To me it seems clear from the GAO investigation and the statements from the AWACS guys, that these pilots were just itching for action. Still, I can't help but think that this would have been avoided by just integrating the Army on the ATO like they do today. Of course all it had to take was an AWACS controller opening his mouth and letting the F-15s know that there are possible friendlies in the area. We both know the importance of clear lines of communication. Just a wrong fill or in this case, bad Mode IV can have deadly results. Just mistakes made all around.
If they had ASE like we have now the outcome would have been different as well. It think the second aircraft would have had a very good chance of survival.
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seems true for a lot of friendly fire engagements. The cockpit tapes of the A-10s that engaged Coalition troops in Iraq showed a couple of cowboys who were eager to kill, kill, kill...until they were told they had just shot friendlies.
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Velocity173
Yeah, in the A-10s defense though, at least they were trying to help friendlies in a time of war. In this case as BH said, this wasn't war and these possible "Hinds" would never have been a threat to any friendly forces. Even just days after the cease fire Iraqi helicopters were off limits to allied aircraft. For some reason these two felt the need to violate the ROE.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
While in OPC we all had an IR jammer ALQ-144 and four radar warning sensors. We did not load our ONE chaff/flare dispenser. We did not have HIRSS(mixed/cooled exhaust) on most hawks. If we had ESSS (stub wings) installed, loaded with 230 gal of JP-8, and 13 on board, we would have had very little maneuverability. We were not expecting any hostiles. If we saw an F-15 off to our left, we would have just thought they were there to protect us. I cannot remember whether our pilots monitored 121.5/243.0 and whether that would have done any good.
Blackhawk
Pre-takeoff checklist
I don't think the available ASE would have done much against this "threat" but good point. One of the Army Aviation lessons learned from the first Gulf War was inadequacy of the ASE. Over a decade later nothing had been done to address the problem- the money was "needed" for the Comanche program. After the loss of a number of airframes and crews in Iraq Cody finally killed the RAH-66, something long overdue, and much of the money saved was used for ASE.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
That is good to hear. Our crews did also have kevlar vests.
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Velocity173
Yep, that's definitely not a setup to counter any real threat. ESSS has been done with in theater and we had HIRSS, CMWS and in some cases chaff loaded. Obviously not foolproof but gives a fighting chance.
darrell
Pre-takeoff checklist
RV10flyer, did you know a guy named Tony Taylor? He was a 'Hawk crew chief in Turkey at the time of the shootdown. Actually I think he was in that unit.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
I left in June 1991 and did not realize OPC continued on for years after I left Mainz/Finthen AAF Germany and went to finish up at Ft Hood. I did not know him. I was very fortunate not to lose any friends/coworkers the entire five years. My first unit in Germany lost a 60 just before I got there. They met a glider and plowed into the ground to miss it near an airport.
darrell
Pre-takeoff checklist
I left Ft. Hood in August 1991 when our unit (part of 2AD) was deactivated and reflagged 2-101st at Campbell. Anyway I just bring up Tony because he was a friend of mine in 2-101st and oddly enough is a coworker of mine now. He mentions the OPC shootdown on occasion, I think a good friend of his was on one of the birds. Army Aviation tends to be a small world.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
We are possibly the 1% of the 1%!
Blackhawk
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yeah, and chicken plate.
Warlock
Pattern Altitude
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Warlock
I remember the day and the distress it caused throughout Army Aviation...I was at Finthen from 85-89....rare anyone else knows of the place...the UH-60 crash with the glider avoidance was on the way back from Graf..I was the duty officer at the Airfield that day. Early October of 86...
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RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
I was with H Co 4th Avn at Wiesbaden Air Base starting in Jan 89. Almost went to 60 pilot training at Rucker, but turned it down to stay with my new bride who joined me Oct 89. Still together 25 yrs later. H Co moved over to Finthen AAF in 90. I left in Oct 91. If you guys are nearby, we will go flying.