2 pilot CRM and briefing approach

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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Hubby and I are planning another trip to Tulsa soon (DIL is 8-1/4 months pregnant). We already have a lot of established VFR protocols for 2 pilot flying in our C-172, but now we are planning to expand our boundaries a little into IFR protocols.

There are probably people who have training from air carriers, etc, who already have some procedures that 2 ordinary bug-smasher pilots don't know about.

So, how far out do you brief an approach? (We figure as soon as we can receive ATIS, but maybe sooner?) (We already have briefed probable approaches before launching unless diverted.)

Are there rules for which frequencies go into which nav radio? Are there rules for who does what?

Are there command-response rituals?

I'm not asking you to tell me what to do, just tell me what you do, if you don't mind. Thanks.
 
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I wait until we have the ATIS before briefing any approach. Normally the pilot not flying gets the ATIS, briefs it (reads it to you) and sets up the approach. Tune the radios, set the courses and sets DA altitudes. This assumes you're not actually using the navy's to navigate. If you are then skip that.

Once the PM sets it up they take the plane so the PF can look at the plate and then brief it. This is a good time to ensure the other guy set it up right. Proper freqs in the Nav and courses and such. Then the PF briefs it. If using Jepps then basically just read the briefing strip and make sure as much is set up now as can be.

With that done the PF takes the plane again. PM always has the radios. If you have retractable gear have the PM swing the gear and flaps on your command. If your not used to this then it'll be cool having voice activated flaps and gear. Plus, not having to deal with ATC is nice too.

One thing I'd stress is positive transfer of controls. Verbalise who is flying and make sure everyone agrees they know who has the plane. You'd be surprised how often jetliners full of people end up flying themselves with 2 or 3 pilots in the cockpit all thinking the 'other guy' is flying.
 
One person flies the airplane and asks for checklists and commands things to be done... That person can do the radios if they like or they can delegate it to the other....
The other pilot prompts the flying pilot for things, "would you like the after takeoff / climb checklist now?" or whatever is appropriate..
Then when setting up for an approach, the nonflying pilot sets up the approach, then the flying pilot gives the airplane to the other pilot while he/she double checks all the freqs etc, and then verbally briefs the approach to the other.
When everything is understood and confirmed by both pilots the first flying pilot retakes the plane and continues.. Thats the basics...

The key is to remember its a team effort for the same goal which is the successful completion of each flight. The cockpit is not the place for big or sensitive egos...
 
AuntPeggy said:
Hubby and I are planning another trip to Tulsa soon (DIL is 8-1/4 months pregnant). We already have a lot of established VFR protocols for 2 pilot flying in our C-172, but now we are planning to expand our boundaries a little into IFR protocols.

There are probably people who have training from air carriers, etc, who already have some procedures that 2 ordinary bug-smasher pilots don't know about.

So, how far out do you brief an approach? (We figure as soon as we can receive ATIS, but maybe sooner?) (We already have briefed probable approaches before launching unless diverted.)

Are there rules for which frequencies go into which nav radio? Are there rules for who does what?

Are there command-response rituals?

I'm not asking you to tell me what to do, just tell me what you do, if you don't mind. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't get to fly IFR in my airplane with another pilot very often but depending on your comfort level with the other pilot they could do as little as monitoring your actions (helps if you verbalize your plans/thoughts) to doing everything but operate the flight controls. For any approach I'm not totally familiar with, I like to make a Post-it with fixes and altitudes from the FAF in along with a shorthand version of the miss and that's something a copilot could easily accomplish. Another is writing down clearances (and freq changes if you log those). On an approach I like to have whoever is in the right front seat watch out front and tell me what they can see (ground contact, approach lights, runway, etc) but it might also be useful to have them call out critical altitudes (500 and 100 "to go") and watch for groundspeed changes (to identify wind changes) etc.

As far as when to brief, with XM (or ADS-B) you can get the weather when you're 20-30 minutes out which is usually beyond ASOS/ATIS range in my airplane. I like to form a plan that includes which approach and how I'm going to get on it no later than that. Sometimes the plan involves just narrowing the choices down to two though and a preliminary brief of both can be started then (including the Post-its). If you don't have XM you can query ATC for the weather or call Flight Watch.
 
AuntPeggy said:
So, how far out do you brief an approach? (We figure as soon as we can receive ATIS, but maybe sooner?) (We already have briefed probable approaches before launching unless diverted.)
Click to expand...
That is about where we do it too. Some of us like to guess at the approach beforehand but I'm lazy enough that I only want to set it up once. It seems that when guessing it always winds up being the wrong guess. :rofl:

AuntPeggy said:
Are there rules for which frequencies go into which nav radio? Are there rules for who does what?
Click to expand...
Our airplane has identical pilot displays on both sides so, using an ILS for example, it's set up in both radios. The frequency on the flip-flop is usually related to the missed approach if necessary. We would normally do the missed approach on the FMS, however. I know this is not an option for you. Generally the non-flying pilot sets up the radios and each pilot sets their own HSI and minimums.

AuntPeggy said:
Are there command-response rituals?
Click to expand...
The non-flying pilot does most of the callouts such as "localizer alive", "glide slope alive". They also are the one that's looking outside. Further on the approach the non-flying pilot gives the calls "500 above minimums" then "300, 200, 100". If they see the approach lights they say, "I have the lights at 12 o'clock (or whatever it is)" and the flying pilot would say "continuing". When the non-flying pilot sees the runway they say "I have the runway 12 o'clock" then the flying pilot would look up and hopefully they see it too! Then they would say, "landing".

Of course I have not covered every possibility and our "rules" are not exactly set in stone anyway, but this is the general way we do it and I've seen it taught.
 
Captain said:
I wait until we have the ATIS before briefing any approach. Normally the pilot not flying gets the ATIS, briefs it (reads it to you) and sets up the approach. Tune the radios, set the courses and sets DA altitudes. This assumes you're not actually using the navy's to navigate. If you are then skip that.

Once the PM sets it up they take the plane so the PF can look at the plate and then brief it. This is a good time to ensure the other guy set it up right. Proper freqs in the Nav and courses and such. Then the PF briefs it. If using Jepps then basically just read the briefing strip and make sure as much is set up now as can be.

With that done the PF takes the plane again. PM always has the radios. If you have retractable gear have the PM swing the gear and flaps on your command. If your not used to this then it'll be cool having voice activated flaps and gear. Plus, not having to deal with ATC is nice too.

One thing I'd stress is positive transfer of controls. Verbalise who is flying and make sure everyone agrees they know who has the plane. You'd be surprised how often jetliners full of people end up flying themselves with 2 or 3 pilots in the cockpit all thinking the 'other guy' is flying.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Or our case, it would be setting up the GPS. Gear doesn't retract, but I get the idea. Oddly enough, we were told about positive exchange of control on our first Discovery flight and we've done our flying that way ever since.
 
ntbjounin said:
One person flies the airplane and asks for checklists and commands things to be done... That person can do the radios if they like or they can delegate it to the other....
The other pilot prompts the flying pilot for things, "would you like the after takeoff / climb checklist now?" or whatever is appropriate..
Then when setting up for an approach, the nonflying pilot sets up the approach, then the flying pilot gives the airplane to the other pilot while he/she double checks all the freqs etc, and then verbally briefs the approach to the other.
When everything is understood and confirmed by both pilots the first flying pilot retakes the plane and continues.. Thats the basics...

The key is to remember its a team effort for the same goal which is the successful completion of each flight. The cockpit is not the place for big or sensitive egos...
Click to expand...
Thanks. It did not occur to us to exchange control. Now that everyone is bringing it up, it seems obvious. Thanks for the warning. Hubby and I have been flying together and working together for a very long time. We just cannot figure out why there is an expectation that married people won't get along under stress. sigh.
 
gismo said:
I don't get to fly IFR in my airplane with another pilot very often but depending on your comfort level with the other pilot they could do as little as monitoring your actions (helps if you verbalize your plans/thoughts) to doing everything but operate the flight controls. For any approach I'm not totally familiar with, I like to make a Post-it with fixes and altitudes from the FAF in along with a shorthand version of the miss and that's something a copilot could easily accomplish. Another is writing down clearances (and freq changes if you log those). On an approach I like to have whoever is in the right front seat watch out front and tell me what they can see (ground contact, approach lights, runway, etc) but it might also be useful to have them call out critical altitudes (500 and 100 "to go") and watch for groundspeed changes (to identify wind changes) etc.

As far as when to brief, with XM (or ADS-B) you can get the weather when you're 20-30 minutes out which is usually beyond ASOS/ATIS range in my airplane. I like to form a plan that includes which approach and how I'm going to get on it no later than that. Sometimes the plan involves just narrowing the choices down to two though and a preliminary brief of both can be started then (including the Post-its). If you don't have XM you can query ATC for the weather or call Flight Watch.
Click to expand...
Good suggestion to verbalize everything. We do some, so now we know to do more. Thanks. We have XM weather in the airplane, but it is usually 50-50 that it will be working.
 
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Everskyward said:
The non-flying pilot does most of the callouts such as "localizer alive", "glide slope alive". They also are the one that's looking outside. Further on the approach the non-flying pilot gives the calls "500 above minimums" then "300, 200, 100". If they see the approach lights they say, "I have the lights at 12 o'clock (or whatever it is)" and the flying pilot would say "continuing". When the non-flying pilot sees the runway they say "I have the runway 12 o'clock" then the flying pilot would look up and hopefully they see it too! Then they would say, "landing".

Of course I have not covered every possibility and our "rules" are not exactly set in stone anyway, but this is the general way we do it and I've seen it taught.
Click to expand...
Isn't the pilot flying monitoring the localizer and glide slope? I'm surprised that the non-flying pilot calls that out.

This is really great. I'm really learning a lot from all you guys.
 
Our SOP for all briefings is much simpler. "Don't let me screw up."
 
80 nm out (~30 min) from about 15,000 or so, we can get the ATIS. The approach plate is briefed at that time. The last fuel system changes are made. The "flops" on the flip flop radios are selected, and GNS 430W is loaded up with whatever is appropriate. The APPROXIMATE rate of descent is calculated to the IAF.

Approximate because ATC never gives you what you calculate. The passenger warnings as to popping the ears, etc, and the reminder to "be quiet and not chat" or we'll cut off the intercom, are made.

Ten nm from the IAF, the last mag compass check is made. The navaids are identified (morse code in the headsets and confirmed), and the missed is rebriefed. Three minutes to showtime.

At the IAF, the autopilot comes off, and we begin flying.
 
bbchien said:
80 nm out (~30 min) from about 15,000 or so, we can get the ATIS. The approach plate is briefed at that time. The last fuel system changes are made. The "flops" on the flip flop radios are selected, and GNS 430W is loaded up with whatever is appropriate. The APPROXIMATE rate of descent is calculated to the IAF.

Approximate because ATC never gives you what you calculate. The passenger warnings as to popping the ears, etc, and the reminder to "be quiet and not chat" or we'll cut off the intercom, are made.

Ten nm from the IAF, the last mag compass check is made. The navaids are identified (morse code in the headsets and confirmed), and the missed is rebriefed. Three minutes to showtime.

At the IAF, the autopilot comes off, and we begin flying.
Click to expand...

The radios not being set up are one of my pet peeves. I see this as the most common error when I ride with other students. I try very hard to let the mistakes build up and let their CFI tell them. However at some point I will make it know its its serious enough. Also bad radio verbiage and just not wanting to talk period.

I have had people quit flying with me because I tell them to be quite on approach. They think its wrong when I switch the intercom off. I'm sorry but its a sterile cockpit for a reason. We can talk about the cool aircraft or life when we get on the ground, but right now shut IT!

I unplugged one person because she wouldn't shut up while I was flying into an air show. She kept asking what planes were what and I needed to listen to the air boss for instructions on how to enter the TFR correctly. She was surpise to say the least when I leaned over and pulled her mic out.

To say the least Radios are my top non-flying pet peeve.


To answer your question... Basically what everyone said about PF and PNF. After you have mastered the tasks and feel comfortable about the division of duties it becomes second nature.
 
Our ops manual pretty much dictates the same thing as what's been iterated by the other 135/121 pilots.

You two need to come up with your own level of comfort for procedures. A typical approach briefing will cover roles and responsibilities for the approach and what might be different from normal, as well as the obvious (What approach it is and details of the approach).
 
Would it be possible to get a copy of an ops manual?
 
All great advice so far.

I'd add on an actual approach, the non-flying pilot calls out altitude at some agreed-upon interval and looks for the runway and announces when it is in sight.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Would it be possible to get a copy of an ops manual?
Click to expand...

You don't want an actual Ops Manual. They are very thick and the procedures are layered on each other for the specific operation and aircraft. If you tried to apply a 135 / 121 operations procedures to your plane it would get very loaded down very quickly with items that don't apply to the point it would lose all meaning.

I once tried to merge two operators procedures for flying the same plane (CRJ-200) and it quickly became apparent it was going to be impossible...or at least WAY more work than just choosing on or the other.

The advise entered on this thread are the general principles that the Ops Manuals are derived from. IMO you'd be much better served by developing your own system to fly with 'hubby' and base that on the principles expressed here.

Besides, you don't want to lean too hard on a crew concept as there will be times you fly by yourself.
 
Isn't the pilot flying monitoring the localizer and glide slope? I'm surprised that the non-flying pilot calls that out.
Click to expand...

The flying pilot is using the localizer and glideslope. The nonflying pilot is monitoring it.

The non-flying pilot makes the deviation call-outs. Typical deviation call-outs are:

"Glide-slope" (one dot high, zero dots low)
"Localizer" (half-dot deflection)
"Airspeed" (0 knots slow, 5 knots fast)
and so on.

Also typical standardized call-outs are:
"Glideslope Alive"
"Localizer Alive" or "Course Alive" or "Bearing Alive"
and so on.

Standardized calls are used at large companies (and some small ones) to maintain the same practices and procedures among the crew members. The actual standard calls vary with each company, and it's expected that precise verbiage be used. In your case, you're standardizing between yourself and your husband; you can use what works for the two of you.

I use the same calls whether I'm in a crew situation, or alone in a single pilot airplane. I always do them out loud; same for the checklists. It's a good practice.

Briefing the approach is generally done once you know which approach you'll be getting. In a 172, there's not a lot to brief. In a large complex aircraft, there may be quite a bit to brief, with the actual approach being the simple part that can be deferred until you're close enough to get ATIS and a procedure assignment.

If you're going to be using an arrival (STAR), you can brief that as well.

On Jepp charts, the charts are arranged in the "briefing strip" format, which gives everything to be briefed in a simple format, in order. Some of the NACO charts are the same way. In a nutshell, make sure you're on the chart you want, especially if you're both using a chart, instead of one common chart. Verify it by procedure name, page number, and effective date.

Set your frequencies, course, and altimeter bugs, and verify what the relevant minimums are, as well as the MSA, and if appropriate, transition level (not appropriate in the US in a 172). Brief the lighting you expect to see when you break out on the approach (PAPI on the left, MALSR as depicted on the chart, etc), and your anticipated taxi directions. Brief the missed approach, including how you intend to enter the hold.

When you're acting as pilot not flying, you'll usually work the radios, and let the pilot flying just fly. It's a good practice to stay one frequency ahead. If you're talking to ground, have the tower frequency set in the flip-flop or reserve position. Then, when you switch to tower, have the departure frequency set in place, and so on. Stay a frequency ahead.

You won't need an Operations Manual; these are proprietary to each company, and spell out company policies and procedures, daily operations, responsibilities, special authorizations and limitations, hazardous materials handling, security, etc.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Would it be possible to get a copy of an ops manual?
Click to expand...
Like others have said, you don't need someone's ops manual. Here are some example SOPs (standard operating procedures) for crews. You might or might not find them helpful or interesting. Remember you are flying a small airplane and a lot of this is irrelevant and/or unnecessary. Still you could read it for curiosity's sake or for good bedtime reading. :rofl:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20120-71A/$FILE/AC120-71A.pdf
 
It all depends who you have in the other seat. You need to brief them enough on want they need to know about what their duties is. My first officer is almost always my wife. She's pilot, but not instrument rated. I usually brief her on the profile and the minimums. Her main job is to let me know if I break out before DH/MDA and secondary is to double check that I'm not busting any altitude on the way down.
 
Peggy, you asked a very good question. I don't think you and the Mr. need to develop the same CRM methods as an international 747 crew. To me, CRM in a light airplane is more about making sure the left and right seater are on the same page. If you're flying, brief what approach you have in mind and what are you going to do if you miss. Often times if you're used to flying single-pilot, the distraction of having a second pilot looking over your shoulder lowers performance...same with an airline crew with a FED in the jumpseat. So, too, does divying up the duties in an otherwise one man (or woman) show. Better if you fly and he watches or vise versa. Doesn't mean one of you shouldn't speak up if you feel comprimised. The best part of CRM when 2 pilots are in a lightplane is (when faced with a really challenging situation) seeking validation with one another...keeping your (collective) judgement in check, as it were.
 
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