2 door low wings (yep another what plane for me thread)

I betcha it had a prop strike. Notice the prop times are N/A. This might be the oldest SR-22 out there. Serial number 3. Doesn't the chute need repacking every ten years, or something like that? I heard it costs $10,000 to have that done. You already know this, but on one this old, better check all the ADs.

Tell your dad that all the cool kids are buying Commanders!:D

This one sold and he is looking at newer ones now
Chute repack is every 10 years and the cost is 15k

Dad says he is probably only going to fly for a few more years.
He will likely get one newly repacked and sell it when he is done flying because I can't afford to take it off his hands.
 
If you want a single engine plane to go places in, it is a tough deal to walk away from. It really baffles me the reluctance of other manufacturers to adopt a chute. It reminds me of car manufacturers refusing to install seat belts, and Volvo as the outlier who installed them in everything from early on.

Yes, it costs more to run than other single engine planes, however, it's less than a newer twin, and you are getting something in between.

It's all about the cost of certification. Likely it's millions to get it done and when you only sell planes in the double digit range... I would have to say though, anybody that brings an all new design to market now and doesn't include a chute is an idiot.
 
If I were designing a small plane today, I would start with the chute, and the attachments to the part where the humans are sitting and then work out from there. I know the wing is the big thing in aviation, but saving the people from themselves is a big market position these days.

I'd also figure out some kind of simulator that any new pilot buying my plane could sit in and experience a sim chute pull. In retrospect, this would have been an excellent investment at Cirrus.
 
If I were designing a small plane today, I would start with the chute, and the attachments to the part where the humans are sitting and then work out from there. I know the wing is the big thing in aviation, but saving the people from themselves is a big market position these days.

I'd also figure out some kind of simulator that any new pilot buying my plane could sit in and experience a sim chute pull. In retrospect, this would have been an excellent investment at Cirrus.

So the gentleman I spoke to last night said he was required to do 15 hours of transition training. In addition, they attended another training where you bring your "copilot" and they are taught in an emergency, under what circumstances it can be pulled and the procedure in the event that the pilot can't. He highly recommended this training for anyone flying or riding in the Cirrus. Apparently if not done correctly, it can make a bad situation possibly worse.
 
So the gentleman I spoke to last night said he was required to do 15 hours of transition training. In addition, they attended another training where you bring your "copilot" and they are taught in an emergency, under what circumstances it can be pulled and the procedure in the event that the pilot can't. He highly recommended this training for anyone flying or riding in the Cirrus. Apparently if not done correctly, it can make a bad situation possibly worse.

15 hours! Jesus. How much experience did he have?

The chute is easy. There is a max speed. I think around 135kts. Basically the procedure is to push the blue button (autopilot level) set the mixture to idle cut-off and then pull the chute.

I think the G1 steam guage cirrus's have depreciated to the point where they become a good value. Comfortable and pretty good useful load - about 1100lbs. You get a lot of great equipment standard.. dual alternators, batteries, dual 430's, HSI, Stormscope, MFD..
 
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Hey, since Dad is checking out Cirrus, how about the Columbias? No chute, but they are faster.
 
It's all about the cost of certification. Likely it's millions to get it done and when you only sell planes in the double digit range... I would have to say though, anybody that brings an all new design to market now and doesn't include a chute is an idiot.

I seriously doubt it would cost near that. The BRS chute is already certified, you just need to STC the installation. The thing is, the chute can expand your business past the double digit range, Cirrus certainly does better and time and time again the answer to why they could get people in a market others could not bring in? The chute. The tech gewgaws help, but the chute turns GA from "Hell, not in those dangerous little planes" to "well, with a chute to save me when it all goes wrong, this would be cool."
 
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15 hours! Jesus. How much experience did he have?

The chute is easy. There is a max speed. I think around 135kts. Basically the procedure is to push the blue button (autopilot level) set the mixture to idle cut-off and then pull the chute.

I think the G1 steam guage cirrus's have depreciated to the point where they become a good value. Comfortable and pretty good useful load - about 1100lbs. You get a lot of great equipment standard.. dual alternators, batteries, dual 430's, HSI, Stormscope, MFD..

2 different trainings
15 hour transition training

Then another voluntary emergency procedure course that covered all sorts of emergency procedures. That is not required but he recommended.
 
I seriously doubt it would cost near that. The BRS chute is already certified, you just need to STC the installation.

And then it has to be flight tested with an actual pull. I think that's what Cirrus had to do. I don't think it's just a matter of bolting one on and you're good to go.
 
And then it has to be flight tested with an actual pull. I think that's what Cirrus had to do. I don't think it's just a matter of bolting one on and you're good to go.

And a repack is $15k retail. So on an M-20 you sacrifice one old $40k airframe.
 
And then it has to be flight tested with an actual pull. I think that's what Cirrus had to do. I don't think it's just a matter of bolting one on and you're good to go.

yup
 
And a repack is $15k retail. So on an M-20 you sacrifice one old $40k airframe.

Seriously, there is what the cost of certification should cost and there is what it actually costs. You keep thinking in terms of what it should cost, not the bureaucratic reality.

I have spoken to different people who have actually gone through STC certifications. Many say never again. Most will tell you just to forget about it. There is a guy that is considering certifying the airbag seat belts for older Mooneys. So far he is not going to do it because the cost of certification is just too high and the cheap bastards that are airplane owners aren't willing to pay the premium. That's just for seat belts. Hell, to just get an LED light bulb certified takes years.
 
2 different trainings
15 hour transition training

Then another voluntary emergency procedure course that covered all sorts of emergency procedures. That is not required but he recommended.

I meant how much experience did he have as a pilot. If he had 100 hours and only flew 172's I can see how the insurance might require 15 hours of training prior to insuring him. But if he was instrument rated, had 500 hours and had flown many different types of aircraft, he should get used to the cirrus in no time.


Also... About a year ago there was a Cirrus pilot who pulled the chute and it did not deploy. Did they ever figure out what caused the chute to fail?
 
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I meant how much experience did he have as a pilot. If he had 100 hours and only flew 172's I can see how the insurance might require 15 hours of training prior to insuring him. But if he was instrument rated, had 500 hours and had flown many different types of aircraft, he should get used to the cirrus in no time.


Also... About a year ago there was a Cirrus pilot who pulled the chute and it did not deploy. Did they ever figure out what caused the chute to fail?

Not sure about the first question. I am meeting him next week and I will ask for more details.

I heard about a Cirrus chute that didn't open and then the guy landed the plane safely.

Wonder if the insurance still totals it?:dunno:
 
Seriously, there is what the cost of certification should cost and there is what it actually costs. You keep thinking in terms of what it should cost, not the bureaucratic reality.

I have spoken to different people who have actually gone through STC certifications. Many say never again. Most will tell you just to forget about it. There is a guy that is considering certifying the airbag seat belts for older Mooneys. So far he is not going to do it because the cost of certification is just too high and the cheap bastards that are airplane owners aren't willing to pay the premium. That's just for seat belts. Hell, to just get an LED light bulb certified takes years.

I'd say it can be done for a quarter of a million and they could recoup the cost in 4 extra sales.
 
I'd also figure out some kind of simulator that any new pilot buying my plane could sit in and experience a sim chute pull. In retrospect, this would have been an excellent investment at Cirrus.
Cirrus already has such a sim.
 
Cirrus First Impression

My father appears to have acquired an SR22 (not the DWI insurance, but rather one of those plastic airplanes) A fellow POA'er RV Tim put he and I in touch with a friend of his that has one and we got to bug him over the weekend.

He let us pick his brain and ask all of the questions we could think of and then he took us flying.

We are coming from a TB9 which is many steps below this plane in performance and technology.

1st It is hard not to love a plane when you are making a leap this big. If you drive a bug and you get a ride in a Vette, there will be a challenge in putting aside the awe that comes with it and focus on the challenges and solutions that the plane provides. I did my best to set aside the "Oh crap this is exciting" and be analytical. That said, I peed a little when he opened the hangar.

Let's get the chute out of the way. That seems to be the thing that comes up as far as separating the men pilots from the boy pilots when discussing this plane in your buddy's hangar. He explained how it works, gave us the parameters under which it is to be used and walked us around the plane explaining how it carries the aircraft. He explained that in a Mayday situation it should be used and emphasized that some pilots are hesitant to use it but explained that the insurance company wants you to use it. However unfeeling this sounds, it is cheaper for them to buy a qtr. million dollar plane then 4x that for everyone on board. I really expected a lot more chute talk but it was just discussed as another feature and he moved on.

Dad and I sit up front and the first thing we notice is how high you sit. Visibility is outstanding in this plane. You sit up very high in the plane (in the front seats) Even the shortest among us will be able to see out over the cowl with ease.

He explains the yoke which I find to be fascinating. There is no trim wheel but the yoke has elec. trim on it and markings along the um.. Pole part of the yoke that show you where the plane is trimmed.

I am surprised more planes don't have these markings on the yoke since it is the yoke that moves in and out when you trim and it is easier than looking down at the floor in most of the planes in which I have sat. It is a cool idea.

The yoke is spring loaded and my first impression is I don't like it. I am not sure what the benefit is except you don't need a control lock :dunno: but it has a significant amount of resistance to it. Something to get used to and probably means a lot of auto pilot usage on longer flights.

Everything is laid out very ergonomically. Coming from the TB, this was something I wondered about because Socata did such a great job of that. Cirrus seems to have put a lot of thought into letting the pilot work without doing a lot of reaching. Your hands rest naturally on the yoke and throttle and the things you adjust most frequently are closest to your fingertips.

This plane had 2 glass panels, Ours will only have the 1 avadyne on the right side and a six pack on the left. I think I will prefer the six pack version. In flight, he showed us "if ATC tells you to fly 220" then he went to the PFD, moved the cursor from alt to hdg, and changed it and hit enter. I believe I'd rather just change the heading bug on a steam gauge rather than dealing with "where's my cursor?" when using AP

That said, this was very slick. It had synthetic vision, and well just about everything you could imagine behind that glass.

One question I forgot to ask was how easy is it to see that glass when flying in high sun? My ipad for example is useless at times when it is bright. It may not be an issue but something I need to ask.

Other than that, it had 2 Garmin 430s and the rest was somewhat standard.

It has built in noise cancelling headphone jacks. so you don't have to have ANR headset to get the benefit of ANR. You do have to have the special bose connector to fit the jacks as they are not 1/4 inch mono jacks we have come to know and love.

Time to fly.
I hop in the back seat and Dad is in front. Dad is a big guy and right away I noticed I had as much legroom as I do in my Nissan Altima. It is a non issue for back seat pax. Very comfortable.

Looking out the window you sort of get a commercial jet feel with the tapered wing and fowler flaps. Reminds me of being a kid and looking "through" the wing of a jet on final.

Throttle up and the constant speed prop adjusts on its own (no blue knob) I am not sure if it is managed by computer or physics but you can feel it adjust at power up. Going from 160hp to 315hp was not difficult to detect. I am used to riding the wings up after rotation, This thing pulls you off the ground or so that was the feeling compared to the TB. Pattern altitude before turning crosswind was not something I had experienced before. This plane wants to climb.

Once up, it was severe turbulance (that's a joke) It was bumpy as hell and this weird part of me kind of expected this luxury vehicle to be a much smoother ride since it was so solid and quiet. But it turns out Cirrus is also subject to the same physics as Cessna. Who'd of thunk?

At this point I take my headset off, tap dad on the shoulder and have him do the same and we proceed to have a normal volume conversation and that was a trip. In our plane talking w/o headsets would not be doable. It is noticeably quiet in the plane.

We fly at 175 kts true and this is crazy fast to me. I loathe getting out from under the Class B around here and constantly monitoring that so I don't bust. It was a couple minutes and we were clear of it.
Again, I come from a 100 kt plane so we are really moving by comparison.

I really liked the traffic alerts. "Traffic Traffic" audibly got my VFR eyes out side the cockpit. You hear it, look where it is telling you to look and it seemed really accurate. I wouldn't consider this and FF to be mutually exclusive but when it showed the traffic, it was there. Sometimes "1 o'clock from ATC can be quite variable" no knock on ATC. I don't fly without them for the most part.

The autopilot is nice and did what you would expect.

I like the side stick. It hadn't occurred to me that non pilots in the right seat may want to fold their arms, legs, read a book, etc and not have a yoke in their personal space. The space the front seaters gain by not having a yoke there is noticeable.

Not sure what else.

All in all my opinion is the plane is super sweet and there is nothing to complain about. It is fast, solid, comfortable, and has bells and whistles beyond what anyone needs. And there becomes my only issue. I got the feeling while we were flying that for someone like me, my goal is to be flying in an airplane and I can do that for far less money. I really don't want a lot of glass and I personally would get the same level of satisfaction out of a plane 1/4 the price. Hell if I was single, I would have an ultralight. I just want to fly.

The plane does a lot but most of what it adds to flying are more wants versus needs (to a pilot like me).

DadPapaCharlie requires a lot of things I don't and he fell in love with it. He was like a kid at a candy store. It was really cool to watch him explore the plane. I am beyond thrilled to have access to such an amazing machine no doubt but When I see the price tag I just think what more is this doing for me than a plane far less expensive?

A lot of that has to do with me being in a tax bracket where this plane isn't even an option. I don't understand people buying ferrari's either but if you are not struggling to buy one, then it is not a big deal. Go get one.

Anyway, It is a very cool plane and just awesome to be in and watch it work. I am looking forward to flying in it with my dad and whomever else. I am not gonna lie though I thought about the chute quite a bit while we were flying and just knowing that was an option is pretty comforting when I think about my parents, wife, kids, being in a plane. I wish they were available in more planes. I suspect they will be one day.

I am still on a mission to aquire my own plane but certainly looking forward to flying in the lap of luxury until that time. :)

 
Sounds awesome. I'm jealous of your access to it, but share your thoughts on costs vs benefits. Now, to figure out a way to talk my Dad into buying one... ;)
 
Sounds awesome. I'm jealous of your access to it, but share your thoughts on costs vs benefits. Now, to figure out a way to talk my Dad into buying one... ;)

well, for me the costs are an improvement especially on a long trip.
I did the math and the increase in fuel burn is offset a good amount by the increase in speed

Longer trips will save me money.

It goes without saying, I can't scrape the surface of the cost of maintenance on this plane. My costs will be cheaper. What it will cost my dad to own it will be something I try not to think about.
 
Yeah, but for him having a serious traveling machine is worth the trade-off in time/contortions compared to the TB9.

And while it's not the be-all and end-all solution, if anybody in your family ever find themselves choosing between launching the chute rocket or serious injury- that SR22 will be worth every penny he and you ever spent on it.
 
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Yeah, but for him having a serious traveling machine is worth the trade-off in time/contortions compared to the TB9.

And while it's not the be-all and end-all solution, if anybody in your family ever find themselves choosing between launching the chute rocket or serious injury- that SR22 will be worth every penny he and you ever spent on it.

Both excellent points.
 
Nice writeup, SixPC. I hope everyone enjoys the plane.

If he hasn't already done it, encourage your dad to take advantage of the transition training from a CSIP. That's a CFI with extra training for the Cirrus. Besides just learning to use CAPS and the avionics, he will also be taught engine management, doing lean of peak the right way.

Enjoy the plane!
 
Nice writeup, SixPC. I hope everyone enjoys the plane.

If he hasn't already done it, encourage your dad to take advantage of the transition training from a CSIP. That's a CFI with extra training for the Cirrus. Besides just learning to use CAPS and the avionics, he will also be taught engine management, doing lean of peak the right way.

Enjoy the plane!

we are taking a CSIP with us to get the plane and starting that training right away. 25 hours with a CFI cuts the insurance in half. There is IFR training motivation right there.

We are also sending the wives to the emergency training.
I am taking this pretty seriously in a "with great power comes great responsibility" way. Things are going to happen much faster.
 
Good write up and video. I'm impressed that it got the 3 of you and a typical fuel load off in about 1100 feet.

Make sure to remind DadSixPC that the chute is for emergencies and not for short field use like the photo shows

whoa-nelly-b52-landing-chute-demotivational-posters-1310484517.jpg


Any chance of you showing it off to me this weekend? Hangar visit is good, since I know you can't carry passengers in it yet.
 
It is in Fl. Undergoing a prebuy. We should have it in 2-3 weeks depending on our schedule and availability to go get it.
 
Bryan, Lots of folks bust on Cirrus because it is the new "successful" kid on the block. It certainly is not the "perfect plane" because there is no such thing. It has some things that I'm not a fan of such as a frangible gas tank ( wet wing) and the preferred method to get out of a spin is to activate the CAPS. Like you I was not a fan of the spring loaded side stick. I think my primary problem was that I didn't like the spring loading and tried to use it like a regular stick when you should use it like a yoke. I think however that is something that familiarity and muscle memory will make fade over time.

My personal experience with Cirrus is that it is perhaps the most comfortable plane I have ever sat in. It is also the easiest plane for ingress and egress that I have ever sat in. More importantly it is the most comfortable and easy to get in and out of that my wife has ever been in.

The speed and visibility are fantastic. I actually thing the ergonomics are better that the Socata's. The throttle and FADEC set up are great. It is a true traveling machine.

I considered joining a cirrus club a couple of years back one of the things that stopped me was the relatively low useful load of about 700lbs for the first generation models the club owned, they have since gotten much higher but just check since I suspect the one your dad is thinking about is an early model.

Also absolutely join COPA and participate in their proficiency and safety programs. Some cirrus owners I know swear by this program and how much safer it makes them.

Enjoy the plane if you get it and fly safe!

1)
 
Just posted something similar on the chute thread. Just flew one for the first time last week and echo your sentiments. The SR22 is a very comfortable traveling machine and I have to say the parachute does give you a certain Peace of Mind. I would be hesitant to use it but if you need it you need it.
 
I considered joining a cirrus club a couple of years back one of the things that stopped me was the relatively low useful load of about 700lbs for the first generation models the club owned, they have since gotten much higher but just check since I suspect the one your dad is thinking about is an early model.

He is getting a 2001 and the useful load is just over 1100 lbs.
Are you sure you are not talking about payload?

That is really low
 
Re: Cirrus First Impression

It has built in noise cancelling headphone jacks. so you don't have to have ANR headset to get the benefit of ANR. You do have to have the special bose connector to fit the jacks as they are not 1/4 inch mono jacks we have come to know and love.

Are you sure? I think it has BOSE headset plugs, but the noise canceling feature--are you sure it's built into the airplane's systems?? I hadn't heard that before. I thought it was just BOSE plugs for BOSE ANR headsets; the plug gets you shipboard power so you don't have to mess with batteries in the headset.

Also, on the video--what was the source of the double "traffic, traffic" call on short final? Somebody holding short? Airborne traffic? Seeing yourself?
 
Re: Cirrus First Impression

Are you sure? I think it has BOSE headset plugs, but the noise canceling feature--are you sure it's built into the airplane's systems?? I hadn't heard that before. I thought it was just BOSE plugs for BOSE ANR headsets; the plug gets you shipboard power so you don't have to mess with batteries in the headset.

Yep, I misunderstood what he was telling us. You are correct.

Also, on the video--what was the source of the double "traffic, traffic" call on short final? Somebody holding short? Airborne traffic? Seeing yourself?

There were a few planes in the pattern. I was in the back so not sure which it was. Nobody holding short. It announces traffic and displays it on the right glass panel. I Initially assumed it was ADS B but given the amount of audibles it called, I suspect it is TCAS or something similar.

The plane is very chatty It had a lot to say to us. Might have just been lonely.
 
Re: Cirrus First Impression

There were a few planes in the pattern. I was in the back so not sure which it was. Nobody holding short. It announces traffic and displays it on the right glass panel. I Initially assumed it was ADS B but given the amount of audibles it called, I suspect it is TCAS or something similar.

The plane is very chatty It had a lot to say to us. Might have just been lonely.

US Aviation's DA20's I trained in had the GTX330/GNS430 combo's with the TIS-B input.

Frequently when landing 36 at KDTO (was 35 back then), we'd get the TRAFFIC TRAFFIC announcement and it was ourselves. I think we were at an odd angle for the transmitter/receiver that caused enough of a lag or lack of transponder return that the TIS-B system thought the target was a different aircraft.
 
Make sure to remind DadSixPC that the chute is for emergencies and not for short field use..
If you think the drag chute is only for "short fields," you must think anything under 10,000 feet is short, that being the minimum for an intentional no-chute landing in the F-4. ;) You'll have to ask someone who flew Buffs about the rules for them.

BTW, the chute was also part of the F-4 spin recovery procedure:

Stick - Full forward
Ailerons - Full with spin (turn needle)
If not recovered, maintain full forward stick and deploy drag chute
Aircraft unloaded - Ailerons neutral

Nearly 35 years since my last F-4 flight, and I still remember that boldface. Just don't remember if jettisoning the chute was part of any succeeding non-boldface steps. :dunno:
 
you must think anything under 10,000 feet is short

You mean you don't remember how white my knuckles where during all those landings at Alice International?

The Buff was the airframe I think of that routinely used a drogue.

I could have referred to this George Barris creation, but I was trying to keep it aviation related.
 
Geezus!

Meeting with our Cirrus Transition guy tomorrow on my lunch break.
I am working on the 36 page quiz they require to have filled out prior to starting the transition. They don't mess around.
 
It is in Fl. Undergoing a prebuy. We should have it in 2-3 weeks depending on our schedule and availability to go get it.
Congrats, 6PC. I noticed you got quiet after your first post on Commanders Owners Group, so I guessed something was up.
 
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