172RG Checkout

[jesse]

I thank Nick for flying up here and reviving my interest in aviation. Due to several events lately I more or less let my flying quit.

I expired at the local FBO and decided that I should get checked out again. I also need a "night checkout" with them.

I've never flown a 172RG so what better airplane to do the checkout in. I'll let you know if it sucks or not.

 

[ScottM]

I thank Nick for flying up here and reviving my interest in aviation. Due to several events lately I more or less let my flying quit.

I expired at the local FBO and decided that I should get checked out again. I also need a "night checkout" with them.

I've never flown a 172RG so what better airplane to do the checkout in. I'll let you know if it sucks or not.

No it is a great plane. I really enjoy flying the 172RG. It flies the same as anyother C172 but has a lot more speed. I was asked once by TPA approach to keep my speed up and had that baby cruising at 140kts! TPA then asked me to slow down and then inquired if I was really a 172 or a 210, nice ego boost. I guess they were hoping for 105 to 110 kts.

When you get your check out there are just a couple of differences and do practice pumping the gear down while flying, it is worth it.

One thing that is a little strange is that once the gear is down you may still feel the hydralic pump going off. This is because as the pressure in the gear lines change the system will have to top it off. It should not being doing this a lot but once in a while.

Also review you variable pitch prop procedures and you should be good to go.

 

[tonycondon]

the cessna retracts use hydraulic pressure to hold the gear DOWN, not up like pipers and anything else that makes sense. The hand pump uses hydraulic fluid out of the same reservoir as the gear pump. So...if you lose hydraulic fluid, dont mess around trying to pump the gear down, it aint gonna happen. And like scott says, occasionally the gear pump will run for a short period, 1 second or so, after gear is down to maintain pressure. This always seems to happen on short final, and is really interesting at night, because the current draw on the motor will dim all interior lights. gets your attention the first couple times. ive never flown a 172rg but got 125ish hrs in a 182rg. I imagine that it will fly sweetly and you will enjoy respectable groundspeeds.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Cutlasses Rock. But then, all aircraft do to one point or another!

 

[ScottM]

ive never flown a 172rg but got 125ish hrs in a 182rg. I imagine that it will fly sweetly and you will enjoy respectable groundspeeds.

I have time in both and the 182RG is really sweat. The 172Rg is just sweat!

I love that stall speed in the 182RG I had that thing at 39kts with the horn blazing once and it still was flying!!

 

[ScottM]

Oh one more thing Jesse, make sure you tap the brakes after lift off to stop the wheel from spinning before you put the gear up.

When the wheels spin the tread is pushed out due to centrifugal force. If you retract the wheels they can rub on the wheel wells. This can cause excessive wear on the tires or in a the worst case jam the wheels into the well.

 

[tonycondon]

yes scott if you compare the short field performance of 182RG and 172, they are comparable or the 182 is better on all counts. Most trouble my students had when checking out in it was they had this "big airplane" mentality and wanted to fly it too fast. I seem to remember it very happy at about 65-70 knots with 40* flaps on final. Good point on the brake taps during retract.
Another thing...Im not sure about the 172rg but on the 182rg the main tires are pretty small, 5x5 i think. They are this way to allow them to fit in the wells. I have been told that this can create some tension if good technique is not used on crosswind landings. I suppose not as much surface area of the tire is pressed against the asphalt as a straight leg 182 with 6x6 tires or whatever. More likely to drift. Although I doubt Jesse will have problems with this, IME his technique is pretty good.

 

[jesse]

Apperantly FBO's do not want to stay in business. I called this afternoon and told the guy specifically that I wanted to schedule a night checkout in the 172RG. I heard a guy in the background say "yea. i'll take him"... He told me to be there at 8PM. I said "Do you guys consider 8PM night? That seems a little early" ..He said "Well by the time you preflight it'll be dark enough"

So I drive to the airport and walk in at 8PM. The guy at the counter said the instructor left fifteen minutes ago. He told me to call him. I call him up and he says "uhh..yeah. 8pm isn't night...and I didn't want to wait around. so call tomorrow and schedule another time or something" These are also the people that charge a four hour min. per day.


So yeah. I am ****ed off. I *really* need to figure out how to get a loan and buy some type of airplane. Everytime I want to fly it's a fight to get an airplane. I never can fly when I want to fly.

I'm really getting discouraged with aviation and find myself flying less and less.

 

[Earthroamer]

Well just now chiming in but I always hated the 172RG. I always referred to it as the "flying pig". Just needs more power. It's a dog. Plus, the gear retraction is like a drunk stork.

Sounds like the instruction there sucks too.... Too bad you are not down here I would check you out in one of the "flying pigs" here.

 

[SkykingC310]

Dude, Jesse, I've had similar problems at an FBO in Portland. It SUCKS. I feel for ya man. Try not to get discouraged and press on, maybe at another FBO.

 

[gprellwitz]

Apperantly FBO's do not want to stay in business. I called this afternoon and told the guy specifically that I wanted to schedule a night checkout in the 172RG. I heard a guy in the background say "yea. i'll take him"... He told me to be there at 8PM. I said "Do you guys consider 8PM night? That seems a little early" ..He said "Well by the time you preflight it'll be dark enough"

So I drive to the airport and walk in at 8PM. The guy at the counter said the instructor left fifteen minutes ago. He told me to call him. I call him up and he says "uhh..yeah. 8pm isn't night...and I didn't want to wait around. so call tomorrow and schedule another time or something"

I strongly recommend you call and speak with the owner or chief pilot. If they're at all like my FBO they'll have a strong word with him and if he repeats he won't be there long.

These are also the people that charge a four hour min. per day.

I know another local FBO that'll cut you a discount on some planes if you commit to renting four hours a month, but I admit, a four hour minimum a day seems steep. Totally precludes a $100 hamburger!

I'm really getting discouraged with aviation and find myself flying less and less.

I'm sorry to hear that. We need more people like you in aviation, and I had the feeling that you really loved it.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It's not really a symptom of aviation or FBOs, as you'll run into low class people all over the place and they just have to be dealt with, using up yours, theirs and other people's time and money way out of porportion to what they're worth. When I have time to deal with these types in "remedial" matters, I do it in such a way as to make the most lasting and constructive impression on them possible, without doing too much work myself.

I'll put more effort into dealing with bozos in aviation because I kind of take it personally in those cases.

Apperantly FBO's do not want to stay in business. I called this afternoon and told the guy specifically that I wanted to schedule a night checkout in the 172RG. I heard a guy in the background say "yea. i'll take him"... He told me to be there at 8PM. I said "Do you guys consider 8PM night? That seems a little early" ..He said "Well by the time you preflight it'll be dark enough"

So I drive to the airport and walk in at 8PM. The guy at the counter said the instructor left fifteen minutes ago. He told me to call him. I call him up and he says "uhh..yeah. 8pm isn't night...and I didn't want to wait around. so call tomorrow and schedule another time or something" These are also the people that charge a four hour min. per day.


So yeah. I am ****ed off. I *really* need to figure out how to get a loan and buy some type of airplane. Everytime I want to fly it's a fight to get an airplane. I never can fly when I want to fly.

I'm really getting discouraged with aviation and find myself flying less and less.

 

[jesse]

I did the checkout today
The instructor should have paid me

So I start the checkout with the instructor and of course just do everything he says so I can get this done with as soon as possible. I'm not going to get into all of the details. But here are the main things

1.) Instructor tells me to fly 70 knots on final. OK Whatever. I'll do it. Of course I do an airliner style landing.

2.) This time the instuctor says "What are you doing? You can't slip unless the throttle is at idle" ... Me: "What are you talking about? This is a cross wind. I'm slipping into the wind. How do you land in a cross wind?" Instructor: "You pull throttle to idle and go into the slip in the flare" Me: "We aren't doing that" I still do 70 knots just because I don't want to argue it...Airliner style float landing.

3.) Round three. Instructor says I need you be at 90 / 80 / 70 knots. Me: "there is an airplane in front of us. we are going to slow down. we are faster then them" .. So I slow it way up so we don't have to do a go around. This time I do final at about 55 to 58 knots in spite. Touch down without float before the numbers and taxi off.

At the end of this...The instructor has the nerve to had me his business card and say "hey .. like if you ever want training on landing with cross winds and stuff let me know" ....

WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE PART 141 SCHOOLS CHURNING OUT FOR INSTURCTORS?!?

 

[tonycondon]

total crap mostly. sigh.

141 graduate, but i have seen the light. Single Pistons do not fly like Jets.

 

[Earthroamer]

total crap mostly. sigh.

141 graduate, but i have seen the light. Single Pistons do not fly like Jets.

I have seen both techniques used in light jets, like I fly. Why can't instructors on checkout just let you fly and then show their "own" personal technique and just let you decide which one you like better. For example, "Hey Jesse, nice job but on the next time around lets try it another way and see what you think." I am sure that would have went over better. Hey, I have two rules when you fly with me.
1. Dont bend the airplane.
2. Dont bend me.

 

[SkyHog]

Good stuff Jesse.

Were you landing at 70 knots at KMIC? Seems that's not the place to be screwing around with landing fast/long.

The important question: Is that satisfactory for a checkout?

 

[ScottM]

WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE PART 141 SCHOOLS CHURNING OUT FOR INSTURCTORS?!?

Uh huh!

I fired my first commercial instructor because of stuff just like that and that I knew more about the regs than he did. My favorite was when he told me that one cannot do a ground check of a VOR unless it was at a VOT. I even pointed it out in the regs exactly how to do this and he still was adamate.

He also had an issue with slipping stating that it is prohibited to slip with ANY flap out. yeah right.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why can't instructors on checkout just let you fly and then show their "own" personal technique and just let you decide which one you like better.

Because it's a checkout -- the instructor is supposed to be teaching you how to fly an airplane you've never flown before. That means taking the time before flight to discuss (among other things) the speeds, configurations, attitudes and power settings for the traffic pattern, and then going through them in flight. If after being taught the correct procedures, the trainee has some ideas he wants to try, that's OK as long as they aren't unsafe. However, the instructor must know the proper procedures for that airplane, which by Jesse's telling, he did not, thus creating the problem.

 

[jesse]

Because it's a checkout

Most of the time the pilot already has time with the airplane and has developed their own way of flying it. The less experienced or old grumpy CFI's run the "my way or no way" policy. This is just stupid. If I'm going to pay some guy money to sit there and do nothing I expect him to mention things that may be helpful or otherwise keep his mouth shut. I'm not here to learn to fly like him. I'm here to make the insurance company happy.

Good stuff Jesse.

Were you landing at 70 knots at KMIC? Seems that's not the place to be screwing around with landing fast/long.

The important question: Is that satisfactory for a checkout?

Yeah. At KMIC. It's not exactly super long but I knew we weren't going to go off the other end. I was just trying to make this "instructor" happy.

Yeah. It was good enough for his signature.

 

[jason]

I heard a story very similar to this the other day. A guy was telling me he went to FL and was just going to check out in a 172 to go flying for the day (check out the beaches and what not).

As soon as he saw the instructor, he knew he was in trouble. He told the instructor that he had X hundred hours in 172 and the guy just put him on the hot plate peppering him with questions about the FARs. As they were taxiing out he kept asking this guy if he was on the centerline. As they took off he was asking him how he was tracking.

No more than 700 ft off the ground, the pilot turned to the CFI and said. "Look, If this is what it's going to be like the whole ride we might as well turn back right now and land. I don't need a flight review, I just want the plane for a couple of hours. After that, you'll probably never see me again. So, that said, do we keep flying or do we head back?"

They kept flying and the instructor didn't say anything more to "train" the guy. He just made sure that he could fly the plane.

I'm the owner of the plane, I'd want to know how that pilot is going to fly it when the CFI isn't in the plane. You're not going to know that by correcting everything he does right off the bat. Let him fly it. Keep him from bending it. If you don't think he can keep from bending it going forward have a chat with him saying, "I'm not happy with that, now I can show you how to keep from busting up this airplane if you'd like to be checked out in it.".

 

[AirBaker]

Most of the time the pilot already has time with the airplane and has developed their own way of flying it. The less experienced or old grumpy CFI's run the "my way or no way" policy. This is just stupid. If I'm going to pay some guy money to sit there and do nothing I expect him to mention things that may be helpful or otherwise keep his mouth shut. I'm not here to learn to fly like him. I'm here to make the insurance company happy.

Not that I disagree with you after hearing your story, but the CFI probably doesn't want to take any chances with someone new in the airplane. If you run into a problem a week later in the aircraft, he can say he told you how to fly the airplane by doing __________ and it's not his fault.

That being said, if you can fly the plane.... you can fly the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

Most of the time the pilot already has time with the airplane and has developed their own way of flying it. The less experienced or old grumpy CFI's run the "my way or no way" policy. This is just stupid. If I'm going to pay some guy money to sit there and do nothing I expect him to mention things that may be helpful or otherwise keep his mouth shut. I'm not here to learn to fly like him. I'm here to make the insurance company happy.

I see we have a different idea of what a "checkout" is. If it involves flying a plane you've never flown before, which is what I thought this was, I stand by my statements -- it's a training flight, and you're the trainee. If it involves local qualification in an aircraft in which you've already been trained, i.e., a skills evaluation flight, then I agree that the instructor should watch you fly and only step in if there's a good reason to do so. However, you also need to remember that it's the FBO's plane, not yours, and they have the right to require you to fly it their way or not fly it at all.

 

[grattonja]

BTW, I was taught "85,75,65" in the pattern and pull the throttle and get that extra speed off over the numbers in the 172RG we rent. That works effectively, and you don't float too much. I think the numbers your CFI was pushing were a bit too high. I wouldn't want to try to be at 70 on short final at Smoketown and expect to get in without eating a bit more runway than I like.

Jim G

 

[Darrell111]

BTW, I was taught "85,75,65" in the pattern and pull the throttle and get that extra speed off over the numbers in the 172RG we rent. That works effectively, and you don't float too much. I think the numbers your CFI was pushing were a bit too high. I wouldn't want to try to be at 70 on short final at Smoketown and expect to get in without eating a bit more runway than I like.

Jim G

I second this.

Besides 1.3 Vso is what should be used if not listed in the POH.

Just have a look at the poh..

Secondly, Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. I love to fly the Cutlass, that extra speed is fun and the constant speed prop is so much easier to manage on a long x-country if you should ever take on in it.

 

[jesse]

I prefer to fly the airplane at whatever feels like a good speed and provides a safe controlled touchdown without float at point of desire.

 

[Darrell111]

I prefer to fly the airplane at whatever feels like a good speed and provides a safe controlled touchdown without float at point of desire.

Hmmm.. I personally wouldnt say that is a good philosophy to follow. I would stick to the POH myself.. respectfully

 

[jesse]

I would stick to the POH myself.. respectfully

Why fly the airplane according to some book that gets more dumbed up by lawyers as time goes on? I make an airplane do what I want. Whatever it takes to make it do what I want is what I do. Jump into an older airplane. There won't be a POH. Do that a few times and you will see the light.

It's a good thing airpseed indicators are reliable. 'Cause there would be a whole lotta pilots in one big world of hurt if it read incorrectly or simply failed.

 

[Darrell111]

Why fly the airplane according to some book that gets more dumbed up by lawyers as time goes on? I make an airplane do what I want. Whatever it takes to make it do what I want is what I do. Jump into an older airplane. There won't be a POH. Do that a few times and you will see the light.

It's a good thing airpseed indicators are reliable. 'Cause there would be a whole lotta pilots in one big world of hurt if it read incorrectly or simply failed.

I agree that one should learn to fly by the seat of their pants but a POH is not dumbed up by any lawyers. Its all mathmatical solutions that make sure you know how to keep that puppy in the air. I can promise if you ever try to fly anything for hire your cheif pilot will have a field day with that kind of attitude towards the POH.

 

[Earthroamer]

Because it's a checkout -- the instructor is supposed to be teaching you how to fly an airplane you've never flown before. That means taking the time before flight to discuss (among other things) the speeds, configurations, attitudes and power settings for the traffic pattern, and then going through them in flight. If after being taught the correct procedures, the trainee has some ideas he wants to try, that's OK as long as they aren't unsafe. However, the instructor must know the proper procedures for that airplane, which by Jesse's telling, he did not, thus creating the problem.

Don't assume, I wouldnt teach them the structured way. You know the old saying about assuming. In this case, the student was shown a lesson and then deviated from it. I see no wrong in letting them try it another way after I have shown them the lesson. Usually you can discuss why it's a deviation from the norm and if it's good or bad. I never said, I wouldnt teach them the proper way of flying that aircraft...

Just to add a point. When I got checked out in a 172RG. The instructor was a military Blackhawk pilot. It was his way or the highway. I asked him a couple of quick questions in the air to which his replay was, "I am God in the aircraft and since you know more than me, you are on your own." So, my first complex landing was with no teaching what so ever. He was completely silent. Did I get it on the ground safely. Yes. Was it the correct way. Probably not. He then got 2 inches from my face and yelled at me on the ground so hard that he was spitting on me. The country boy in me laid him out infront of his boss/owner. I was hired there the next year. I vowed then, when I was in instructor to show them my style of teaching during a checkout. Then if they have another way, like this student...allow them to see if it will work. As long as it's in the realm of safety.

 

[jesse]

I agree that one should learn to fly by the seat of their pants but a POH is not dumbed up by any lawyers. Its all mathmatical solutions that make sure you know how to keep that puppy in the air. I can promise if you ever try to fly anything for hire your cheif pilot will have a field day with that kind of attitude towards the POH.

There is a huge difference from flying a small prop job and a large turbine or jet. One of them you fly by feel. The other you fly by numbers because it doesn't have feel.

You can fly by the POH. I'll fly by what actually works.

a POH is not dumbed up by any lawyers

You either haven't read it very thourghly or haven't came to the realization that the POH is not god in many aircraft.

 

[Darrell111]

There is a huge difference from flying a small prop job and a large turbine or jet. One of them you fly by feel. The other you fly by numbers because it doesn't have feel.

You can fly by the POH. I'll fly by what actually works.


You either haven't read it very thourghly or haven't came to the realization that the POH is not god in many aircraft.

Roger that

 

[poadeleted20]

The Cessna POH's, especially the 172's, recommend airspeeds that will inevitably result in significant float and encourage ballooning -- up to 1.4 or 1.5 Vs0, in some cases. This is directly opposite the recommendations of virtually every flight training handbook to use 1.2 to 1.3 Vs0 for normal approaches, and 1.15 to 1.2 Vs0 for short field approaches, with Vs0 recomputed from the book max gross weight figure based on actual gross weight at landing. For that reason, this is one of the very few cases in which I recommend not using the book, and using good aerodynamic sense instead.

 

[TMetzinger]

There is a huge difference from flying a small prop job and a large turbine or jet. One of them you fly by feel. The other you fly by numbers because it doesn't have feel.

You can fly by the POH. I'll fly by what actually works.


You either haven't read it very thourghly or haven't came to the realization that the POH is not god in many aircraft.

The POH/AFM in recent airplanes is pretty good. There are a bit too many lawyer-driven cautions and warnings, but for the most part, the airplane works and flies as described, even on the Cessnas.

And you'd be amazed at the "feel" you get in a jet. Even in the fly-by-wire models there is a lot of tactile feedback, as well as a "seat-of-the-pants" feeling too. I've gotten to hand-fly several Boeings as well as some Hawkers and Falcons, and one completely forgets how big the airplane really is until you need to land (get used to the different sight picture) or to taxi (get used to the ground handling).