$170/hr Twin realistic?

[hindsight2020]

I don't know your flight experience but assuming no multi time, $4k/year for an entry level twin may not be far off the mark.

I don't know how much TT I have since I stopped caring when I decided to permanently postpone the airline bid. I think I'm around 3500ish? Plus civilian that's closer to 45xx. Multi is probably circa 1,200 on the fighter-trainer, and another 1,100 on an 8-engine'd heavy multi. So 2300ish ME. Oh and 5 hours in a PA-44 and the left engine almost didn't restart on the checkride. Went to pull the hot seat and realized..there is no handle.

I had no idea insurance on these twin cans was that steep for a guy with my experience. Like I said, if that's true then it's /thread for sure.

I have a 55 Baron. Are you sure you know how much fuel they burn ? How much ? I'll fly over 200 hours this year in the Baron so my numbers will be very skewed compared to the average 35 hour a year guy. The Travel Air isn't significantly cheaper to run overall than a Baron. Sure there's a little difference in engine overhaul costs but in the big scheme of things, that's pretty minor.

Why would I not be sure how much a Baron burns in fuel? It's not state secret.

Your point about the cost difference mimics much of what I've heard from other owners. Would you humor me and throw a yearly number for that cost delta per year. 2K? 5K? 10K? Reason I ask is that the problem with calling differences minor is that to a King Air guy the difference between a 421C and an Arrow is minor. To the Arrow guy, well you get my drift. I'm just trying to see what order of magnitude are we talking here. See I happen to believe that the operating cost delta between a pair of Lyco 360s and Conti 470/520 is significant over the long term, which is where I was basing my predilection for the 4 banger twin proposition, "identical airframe mx" notwithstanding. But if you're saying it's not, then I'm inclined to believe you, I just want to know what that number is.

 

[KLRDMD]

I don't know how much TT I have since I stopped caring when I decided to permanently postpone the airline bid. I think I'm around 3500ish? Plus civilian that's closer to 45xx. Multi is probably circa 1,200 on the fighter-trainer, and another 1,100 on an 8-engine'd heavy multi. So 2300ish ME. Oh and 5 hours in a PA-44 and the left engine almost didn't restart on the checkride. Went to pull the hot seat and realized..there is no handle. I had no idea insurance on these twin cans was that steep for a guy with my experience. Like I said, if that's true then it's /thread for sure.Why would I not be sure how much a Baron burns in fuel? It's not state secret. Your point about the cost difference mimics much of what I've heard from other owners. Would you humor me and throw a yearly number for that cost delta per year. 2K? 5K? 10K? Reason I ask is that the problem with calling differences minor is that to a King Air guy the difference between a 421C and an Arrow is minor. To the Arrow guy, well you get my drift. I'm just trying to see what order of magnitude are we talking here. See I happen to believe that the operating cost delta between a pair of Lyco 360s and Conti 470/520 is significant over the long term, which is where I was basing my predilection for the 4 banger twin proposition, "identical airframe mx" notwithstanding. But if you're saying it's not, then I'm inclined to believe you, I just want to know what that number is.

If you have recent multi time in similar airframes as you discuss buying, based on your experience I'm guessing insurance will run $2,500/yr for a $75k hull value but that's with sub-limits, not smooth coverage.

Barons are tremendously versatile so fuel burn is not a constant. For my most typical flight regimen I burn 9 GPH per side. But I can get it down to 7 GPH/side or I can push as much as 30 GPH total in cruise through it. I can, and do climb at 40 GPH (total) or 25 GPH. So, how much fuel does a Baron burn ?

The difference in overhauling a Lycoming O-360 as in a Travel Air and a Continental IO-470 in a 55 Baron is about $4k per engine. In the big scheme of things, that's pretty insignificant.

My Baron costs about $17k/year, all in (annual, insurance, hangar, database updates & miscellaneous*) - plus fuel. Fuel for 200 hours is about $18k so for $35k per year and 200 hours it is about $175/hr.

A guy that pushes 25 GPH through his Baron and flies 50 hours a year will spend $23k or over $450/hour.

So, how much per hour does a Baron cost to fly ?

* miscellaneous includes oil changes and other maintenance throughout the year

 

[hindsight2020]

If you have recent multi time in similar airframes as you discuss buying, based on your experience I'm guessing insurance will run $2,500/yr for a $75k hull value but that's with sub-limits, not smooth coverage.

Barons are tremendously versatile so fuel burn is not a constant. For my most typical flight regimen I burn 9 GPH per side. But I can get it down to 7 GPH/side or I can push as much as 30 GPH total in cruise through it. I can, and do climb at 40 GPH (total) or 25 GPH. So, how much fuel does a Baron burn ?

The difference in overhauling a Lycoming O-360 as in a Travel Air and a Continental IO-470 in a 55 Baron is about $4k per engine. In the big scheme of things, that's pretty insignificant.

My Baron costs about $17k/year, all in (annual, insurance, hangar, database updates & miscellaneous*) - plus fuel. Fuel for 200 hours is about $18k so for $35k per year and 200 hours it is about $175/hr.

A guy that pushes 25 GPH through his Baron and flies 50 hours a year will spend $23k or over $450/hour.

So, how much per hour does a Baron cost to fly ?

* miscellaneous includes oil changes and other maintenance throughout the year

Thank you very much for the candid and numbers-specific response! This is the kind of feedback I was looking for. And thank you for the intel on insurance; I severely underestimated that cost item on the twins. It is pretty clear my mission doesn't justify this level of cost. So I'm gonna go back and search a little harder for a C33A and hope I can find one with a CG I can make work. Compromises.

And thanks again to all who also replied with their individual twin experience. Much appreciated.

 

[MIFlyer]

You mean, "it's a big effin club.... and you ain't in it!"? Copy . Which is why I made the thread in the first place. It does not escape me that singles meet my mission (except the overwater part, but that's a novelty bucket list I'll probably do on my own in a single and a raft, leave the wife and kid back home, much to her no-kidding chagrin).



Interesting numbers. Just for funsies I whipped out ye ol' spreadsheet and calculated my 5 year ledger on the Arrow. According to the truth data over 5 years of ownership, the thing cost me $60/hr in mx, $44/hr in gas and $9.70/hr in insurance. $113/hr for 982# useful and 594NM no-wind IFR range with reserves, WAAS, autopilot on less than 50K capitalization costs. No paint though. Count my blessings indeed.

I'm puzzled about your insurance numbers though. Would it really cost someone with my flight experience over 4AMUs a year to insure a 75K-smooth-hull 4 banger twin, with a first year penalty to boot? I find that surprising. If true, certainly not something I had considered. And yes at that point the math doesn't work out. $36/hr for insurance is a non-starter. I can see that being reasonable for a heavy tailwheel warbird since I have none and no TW endorsement. But for a part 23/CAR twin as a mil-IP and ATP-MEL? Forget that noise.



Um, you just described a Comanche 260B/C. I have it on good authority those are not $170/hr m/f/i airplanes, let alone $200/hr like you describe your PA-30 ownership. Not doubting your numbers since you're the one writing the checks, but I've owned Lyco 320s in the past. I'm just legitimately surprised an additional 320 has raised the cost of ownership so much for you over what essentially is a PA-24-260C.



An wing-smoothed Arrow by another name. Sat on them while shopping for my Arrow. Bit more speed, worse ergonomics, slightly worse power loading. I'd never pay 75 AMUs for a Mooney 20F or an Arrow for that matter.. I'm looking for something a bit more vertical in upgrade.

At any rate, I see you own a Baron. Is it a 55? Care to comment on what that thing runs you in mx only on a yearly amortized basis? I already know what they fuel burn, but I'm told the 95 and 55 are basically the same airframe. So figured sans the conti jugs and much more expensive overhauls, the airframe mx ought to be identical. Just trying to pin down a number since I haven't had the opportunity to meet a Travel Air owner and take a peek at their mx ledger.

--break break---

I really wish the damn Debbies weren't so CG challenged (470N-modded C33, or C33As; not the pig 225HP stock ones). It works for my mission on the load and endurance, but it falls on its @ss at landing . I've seen some go for around my budget.
Ze search continues...

insurance will be reasonable for most twins. ive been quoted with 150 hrs in fixed gear singles, no ir, no complex, 3,400 first year multi

 

[Banjo33]

Don’t have the patience to put together a multi-quote, so I’m just going to address the points referencing the PA-30, based on my experience.

15k annual: as I said, I budget for a $5k annual. The shop I used in the most recent one quoted 45 hr flat rate for the inspection. Per my research, this is about right for a Twinco, non-owner assist. Now, this Annual was significantly more expensive as it included a reset of a couple of 1000-hr ADs and uncovered a few Mx discrepancies that inflated the bill. It was also the first time this shop had seen this bird. All of which drove the price up. So, I don’t expect this to be the norm and I won’t normally budget for it, but realize an annual’s cost can quickly sky rocket and I’m prepared. 2 engines equal 2 vacuum pumps, 4 mags, 4 exhaust manifolds, etc. more opportunity for things to go bad and needing to be addressed.


Not sure what it is about my numbers that you’re surprised about and makes the Twinco a “Mx hog”?. My insurance (as a mil-IP flying nearly 400hrs/yr, ATP MEL MEI, etc) runs $2400. This is pretty average and was what I was quoted from day one. Hangar is another $2400/yr. Those two numbers plus budgeting $5k for an annual plus $65/hr in fuel is right at your $170/hr budget. You’re not accounting for budgeting toward any ADs, GPS subscription, oil, engine/prop overhauls, prop governors/mags/vacuum pump/instrument overhauls, intake/instrument air filters, tires, brakes, light bulbs, paint/interior, etc. All of these things have to be considered as any one or multiple of things can rear their head at any point. If your plan is to budget separately for these things outside of your $170/hr budget then so be it. But, if you’re banking on buying a bird that has recently had ALL of these things addressed for you, your purchase price is going to be MUCH higher. And regarding Twinco vs Aerostar vs Twin Bo vs Twin Beech vs etc., makes no difference in this regard (2 engines and their accessories and general fixed costs outside of ADs).

 

[tspear]

To save money on a baron. Go here: http://csobeech.com
The author collects a lot of tips to run a baron economically, mostly via BeechTalk where he is an active poster.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk

 

[k9medic]

I just went through this whole scenario and operating costs pushed me into a single.

Ultimately settled on a Cherokee 6 260.

135kts true at 14.5 gph. Four people and 5.5 hours range and can still load almost 400lbs.

 

[hindsight2020]

Don’t have the patience to put together a multi-quote, so I’m just going to address the points referencing the PA-30, based on my experience.

15k annual: as I said, I budget for a $5k annual. The shop I used in the most recent one quoted 45 hr flat rate for the inspection. Per my research, this is about right for a Twinco, non-owner assist. Now, this Annual was significantly more expensive as it included a reset of a couple of 1000-hr ADs and uncovered a few Mx discrepancies that inflated the bill. It was also the first time this shop had seen this bird. All of which drove the price up. So, I don’t expect this to be the norm and I won’t normally budget for it, but realize an annual’s cost can quickly sky rocket and I’m prepared. 2 engines equal 2 vacuum pumps, 4 mags, 4 exhaust manifolds, etc. more opportunity for things to go bad and needing to be addressed.


Not sure what it is about my numbers that you’re surprised about and makes the Twinco a “Mx hog”?. My insurance (as a mil-IP flying nearly 400hrs/yr, ATP MEL MEI, etc) runs $2400. This is pretty average and was what I was quoted from day one. Hangar is another $2400/yr. Those two numbers plus budgeting $5k for an annual plus $65/hr in fuel is right at your $170/hr budget. You’re not accounting for budgeting toward any ADs, GPS subscription, oil, engine/prop overhauls, prop governors/mags/vacuum pump/instrument overhauls, intake/instrument air filters, tires, brakes, light bulbs, paint/interior, etc. All of these things have to be considered as any one or multiple of things can rear their head at any point. If your plan is to budget separately for these things outside of your $170/hr budget then so be it. But, if you’re banking on buying a bird that has recently had ALL of these things addressed for you, your purchase price is going to be MUCH higher. And regarding Twinco vs Aerostar vs Twin Bo vs Twin Beech vs etc., makes no difference in this regard (2 engines and their accessories and general fixed costs outside of ADs).

It's all good brother. I looked at your numbers again, and I think we were just talking past each other. I realized you made accounting of your costs differently than how I posted on the thread. I include everything mechanical in the mx ledger, not just unscheduled mx that pops up through the year. So your ADs, consumables, annual, all of that goes in the mx pile. So yes, I am accounting for that. And per your data points, the mx/fuel/insurance cannot be done for what I was willing to increase my yearly outlay. So it looks like we're staying in the single engine lane. At any rate, thanks again!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You mean, "it's a big effin club.... and you ain't in it!"? Copy .

Naah, the Ovation just wasn't released until 1994 so you can't go and buy a 1960's/70's version that's pretty much fully depreciated. But, you can do what I did and get yourself a partner, because you might be able to get one for $150K.

Interesting numbers. Just for funsies I whipped out ye ol' spreadsheet and calculated my 5 year ledger on the Arrow. According to the truth data over 5 years of ownership, the thing cost me $60/hr in mx, $44/hr in gas and $9.70/hr in insurance. $113/hr for 982# useful and 594NM no-wind IFR range with reserves, WAAS, autopilot on less than 50K capitalization costs. No paint though. Count my blessings indeed.

Not bad. Mx seems a bit high to me (I would've expected closer to $50/hr) but on a lot of those old airplanes, it only takes one expensive squawk to skew that number when you're only looking at 5 years.

BTW, if you have your costs split down into airframe/engine/avionics maintenance like I do, just double the engine part and you should have a pretty good idea what a Seminole would cost (though the Seminole is carbed so overhauls will be cheaper), and probably not too far off what some of the other four-banger twins would cost.

I'm puzzled about your insurance numbers though. Would it really cost someone with my flight experience over 4AMUs a year to insure a 75K-smooth-hull 4 banger twin, with a first year penalty to boot? I find that surprising. If true, certainly not something I had considered. And yes at that point the math doesn't work out. $36/hr for insurance is a non-starter. I can see that being reasonable for a heavy tailwheel warbird since I have none and no TW endorsement. But for a part 23/CAR twin as a mil-IP and ATP-MEL? Forget that noise.

Ah. I wasn't aware of your experience. Most people who come on here asking about twins aren't even rated yet. I did get a quote on a Twinkie before I was rated and I think it was $5600 for a $100K hull, or something like that. But, I probably had under 500TT, under 50 complex, little or no multi, and no rating.

 

[KLRDMD]

I just went through this whole scenario and operating costs pushed me into a single. Ultimately settled on a Cherokee 6 260. 135kts true at 14.5 gph. Four people and 5.5 hours range and can still load almost 400lbs.

It would be interesting to determine the entire operating expenses on a yearly basis and compare to a twin. A twin will cost more but I doubt it would be that much more than a Cherokee Six.

As an example, in my Baron if I choose to fly at 8GPH per side (16 GPH total), as I did this morning I get 160 KTAS, 10 NMPG. Your numbers for the Cherokee Six give 9.3NMPG. The twin will also climb at least twice and probably three times as fast as the Cherokee Six so even though the fuel burn is higher in the twin for the climb, it is climbing much less time. For any given trip, you would get there faster and use less fuel for the trip in the Baron versus the Cherokee Six. I fly to Mexico regularly with a number of airplanes flying together, one is a Cherokee Six so I know this to be true.

That said, there are some people that willingly put 30 GPH through their twins and get 200 KTAS. I'm not that guy.

Most personally operated twins will fit in the same hangar as a Cherokee Six and database updates, etc. are identical for the same installed equipment. Maintenance is higher on the twin, no doubt, but there will be a purchase price differential; similarly equipped, the single will cost more to buy and therefore have a hull value to insure that's higher. In most cases it takes a decade or more to use up the amount in extra maintenance that you saved in purchase price buy buying a twin.

I think a lot of people just look at fuel burn and two engines to maintain and they decide they can't afford to fly a twin. Twins are more expensive than singles, but most people that have not owned a twin tend to greatly overestimate the true difference in overall operating expenses.

 

[k9medic]

My numbers came from a side by side comparison of mx costs and very little came from the nmpg factor or fuel burn.

I few a c310 for a while as well.

Fypu mentioned double the cost for example, but two props to overhaul at 60 months instead of 1 and 4 mags to inspect instead of 2. has to be figured in.

I use $50 dry for a operating cost not including insurance or tiedown/ hangar.

Wet operating comes out to about $111 per hour. Simple math would double that if I was comparing a O540 versus a O360.

I fly to the Bahamas regularly which is why just bought the 6. I had to consider the cost of landing a twin over there too.

 

[kayoh190]

Dammit @hindsight2020 , if you start bombing around in 310, I don’t want to hear another damned thing about the proletariat, hoi polloi, or whatever else, you bougie bastard!

 

[kayoh190]

In all seriousness, I'm not sure a twin makes sense in your case (I completely understand why you're looking - I do the same thing). I think I'd open the pocketbook just a hair wider and get a Lance. Lots of great twins are listed on this thread, but one of your beefs with the Arrow is the cabin, and a Twin Comanche or Baron/Travel Air isn't going to help you too much there.

I'm also a financial wuss, and the gamble of picking up an old twin for 7.5 stacks gives me the heebie jeebies. Especially when you're not doing the wrenching yourself.

 

[Chester Clark III]

I fly a PA-30 and maintain at a shop that's pricey and particular. At around 200 hours a year I think $170-$200/hr for total costs is reasonable. It will all depend on what condition you buy in vs. maintain to and what upgrades you do while owning it. I have about 1100# useful load with up to 90 gallons capacity and up to six seats, and cruise at 160 kts at 15-16 gph.