121 question: how is "rest" defined?

astanley

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Andrew Stanley
I really should know this, given how much I fly.

Is 121 mandatory rest time from block-to-block, duty-to-duty, or some other measure? I have a 0700 flight and the crew is (usually) the inbound crew on the (normally) 2130 arrival. Tonight, the arrival isn't scheduled to be in until nearly 0000, so I'm trying to guess what the long pole in the tent is (wx, crew, etc) for tomorrow's departure.

Cheers,

-Andrew
who is doubting, even if the rest is OK, that he'll be wheels up at 0700
 
I really should know this, given how much I fly.

Is 121 mandatory rest time from block-to-block, duty-to-duty, or some other measure? I have a 0700 flight and the crew is (usually) the inbound crew on the (normally) 2130 arrival. Tonight, the arrival isn't scheduled to be in until nearly 0000, so I'm trying to guess what the long pole in the tent is (wx, crew, etc) for tomorrow's departure.

Cheers,

-Andrew
who is doubting, even if the rest is OK, that he'll be wheels up at 0700

If you're ex-RIC tomorrow, plan on deicing being an issue.

Last time I left IAD after a snow/ice event, it took an hour for the ground crew to chew their cud, pick their rears, and then deice the plane. Actual deicing was 15 minutes. I watched them out the windows. This was AA ground crew. They closed the doors on time (got that on-time ranking in).

Feh.
 
greg or others will be able to answer better.

for my 135 flying, i was on duty from the time i started preparing for a flight, at least 30 minutes before takeoff, until shutdown. it was my experience that it was as much up to the POI for the operation as anything in how the rules were interpreted, so even another carriers official opinion may not apply.
 
Well, ours is dictated by contract. But I think FAR is block in to block out. Well, scratch that. Free from duty. For us that would be 15 minutes after block in to one hour prior to block out.
 
I really should know this, given how much I fly.

Is 121 mandatory rest time from block-to-block, duty-to-duty, or some other measure? I have a 0700 flight and the crew is (usually) the inbound crew on the (normally) 2130 arrival. Tonight, the arrival isn't scheduled to be in until nearly 0000, so I'm trying to guess what the long pole in the tent is (wx, crew, etc) for tomorrow's departure.

Cheers,

-Andrew
who is doubting, even if the rest is OK, that he'll be wheels up at 0700

For Domestic Operations:
121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.
(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.


For Supplemental Operations:


121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.

(a) If a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
 
Our rest starts 15 mins after block-in unless the drive time to the hotel is more than 45 minutes. Depending upon the company and their contract, if they weren't on reduced rest last night and they flew less than eight hours today, they only need eight hours of rest tonight. If the company doesn't want (or can't) put them on reduced rest, then they need at least 9 hrs, probably 10 (if they were reduced last night). Of course that could all be different if their contract dictates something more strict than the FAA mins.

It's conceivable y'all could be on time, but if they're coming from any of the New York airports tonight, you won't be. They've already canceled or delayed all of our flights before noon (inbound to EWR) or 1pm (outbound from EWR). Where are you headed? Good luck and good flight (if it happens)!!
 
Well, ours is dictated by contract. But I think FAR is block in to block out. Well, scratch that. Free from duty. For us that would be 15 minutes after block in to one hour prior to block out.

Correct, it's free from duty, whatever the contract and/or GOM specify as "duty".

In our operation duty ends 30 minutes after block in.
 
AA to ORD at (now) 0830. The equipment made it in around midnight. I'm afraid Bill will be right, I'll spend an hour on an RJ while the de-ice crew figures out how to de-ice an airplane.

We'll see...
 
I really should know this, given how much I fly.

Is 121 mandatory rest time from block-to-block, duty-to-duty, or some other measure? I have a 0700 flight and the crew is (usually) the inbound crew on the (normally) 2130 arrival. Tonight, the arrival isn't scheduled to be in until nearly 0000, so I'm trying to guess what the long pole in the tent is (wx, crew, etc) for tomorrow's departure.

Cheers,

-Andrew
who is doubting, even if the rest is OK, that he'll be wheels up at 0700

Well, it's a couple of wars old, but for my DoD time, it was (legal) duty to duty (if you choose to stay at work past being dismissed, or come in early, that time didn't count)
 
I don't see any AE or AA flight RIC to ORD scheduled at 0700, but on Monday, 2 March, AE4100 scheduled 0830 departed RIC 0847, scheduled 0950 arrived ORD 1033. Not too bad, considering.
 
I don't see any AE or AA flight RIC to ORD scheduled at 0700, but on Monday, 2 March, AE4100 scheduled 0830 departed RIC 0847, scheduled 0950 arrived ORD 1033. Not too bad, considering.

Except I couldn't get out of my house at 0630 to get to the airport. I didn't want my wife driving back in the snow (because the drivers are absolute idiots in the snow down here), so I rescheduled to the 5:20 departure. Needless to say, we didn't leave until just about 7, got in to Chicago just after 8, ramp hold, parked, 9:20 boarding for my Cincy seg, departed at 10:30 or so, landed at 12:30, in the hotel by 2:15 AM. Joy.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Except I couldn't get out of my house at 0630 to get to the airport. I didn't want my wife driving back in the snow (because the drivers are absolute idiots in the snow down here), so I rescheduled to the 5:20 departure. Needless to say, we didn't leave until just about 7, got in to Chicago just after 8, ramp hold, parked, 9:20 boarding for my Cincy seg, departed at 10:30 or so, landed at 12:30, in the hotel by 2:15 AM. Joy.

Cheers,

-Andrew

There's always Comscare.... Not that they'd be any earlier.
 
There's always Comscare.... Not that they'd be any earlier.

I'm not EXP with DL :nono:

Plus, Smelter airlines charges $1300 for the direct. $700 if I connect in ORD on AA. Win/win!

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I'm not EXP with DL :nono:

Plus, Smelter airlines charges $1300 for the direct. $700 if I connect in ORD on AA. Win/win!

Cheers,

-Andrew

A coach seat is a coach seat. And last time I looked the Barbi/Jungle jets generally were coach only ('900's excepted).

At least the booze is free in the Crown Rooms.... and my Plat Amex gets me in for free....

Coach in a Barbie jet for 1-1/2 hours vs 4 hours in ORD with a missed connection. I'll take door #1 for $600, Alex.

(I hear you about the cost issue. There is a reason that I would often transport myself to DAY, LEX or SDF when I lived/needed to be in Cincy).
 
Free.... Aside from the $400+ annual fee! Had one, then dropped it. Not worth it for me.:no:

One reason I maintain my Platinum Amex is that it it gets me into 4 different airline clubs.... and I will probably do 150,000-175,000 airline miles this year. :yikes: By that measure, I've saved the cost of 3 airline clubs. :) Besides, $400 is only about 50 cocktails at the current prices... ;)
 
One reason I maintain my Platinum Amex is that it it gets me into 4 different airline clubs.... and I will probably do 150,000-175,000 airline miles this year. :yikes: By that measure, I've saved the cost of 3 airline clubs. :) Besides, $400 is only about 50 cocktails at the current prices... ;)
And I haven't even topped 100K miles LIFETIME on UAL. Hence, not worth it for me. Unfortunately, that means I not only ride in the cattle car, but I wait in the stockyard, too!:frown3:

And, since UAL is the airline I fly 80% of the time (being based in Chicago), and AmEx doesn't give privileges in their club, ....
 
I'm EXP on AA so I have access internationally (period), but domestically I have to pay. $350/year for Admirals Club is generally OK. The few places that don't have an AC (CVG), I'm still SOL because there are no clubs in that terminal (only clubs in CVG are over in the DL area).

I agree on the coach seat, but the cost differential isn't worth it, and if I take in the time to connect to SDF/CMH/DAY/LEX, I might as well have stuck with my primary program.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I'm EXP on AA so I have access internationally (period), but domestically I have to pay.

As do I.

$350/year for Admirals Club is generally OK. The few places that don't have an AC (CVG), I'm still SOL because there are no clubs in that terminal (only clubs in CVG are over in the DL area).

I am flying domestically as much as international. And for a variety of reasons (see: Northeast Corridor) I really need two carriers with status. AmEx Plat is a better deal for me as it covers multiple carriers. We'll see if DL/NW drop participation after the merger is complete.

I agree on the coach seat, but the cost differential isn't worth it, and if I take in the time to connect to SDF/CMH/DAY/LEX, I might as well have stuck with my primary program.

Not defending DL here, just that I've finally reached the point where a non-stop is highly preferred to a connection. Especially through ORD. I could do WAS-LAX via ATL, ORD, or DFW (and probably get a slightly higher upgrade percentage), but I'm tired of delayed flights and missed connections. Last time I was in ORD (less than 2 weeks ago), it was NOT by choice... we were brought down by a lav.

I prefer AA's clubs to other domestic carriers (exception: NW's World Club at DTW). Much better condition, even if you have to pay for food and booze. DL's are worn out and overly crowded. IME DL's in-flight international product is superior to AA in J.... both are about equal domestically, though I think DL's maintenance is a bit better - and AA's planes are filthy.
 
Free.... Aside from the $400+ annual fee! Had one, then dropped it. Not worth it for me.:no:
I have a lifetime membership in the WorldClub (which will transfer to the Crown Room when they fully merge). Even though Delta no longer offers lifetime memberships, they'll honor the one I have.

It's great for me, because I don't deal well with screaming kids, and there are far fewer of those (though not zero, doggone it) in the club than outside it. Having a place to sit down, plug in the laptop, and get some work done is great, too.
 
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What are these "clubs" anyway? And are you really at a particular airport long enough to need 'em? Seems like on short layovers I can generally find an outlet next to a chair where I can plug in the laptop, on long layovers I'll get in touch with friends in that city if I can, or try to get away from the airport for a bit. $400 buys a lot of booze, food, and earplugs.
 
What are these "clubs" anyway? And are you really at a particular airport long enough to need 'em? Seems like on short layovers I can generally find an outlet next to a chair where I can plug in the laptop, on long layovers I'll get in touch with friends in that city if I can, or try to get away from the airport for a bit. $400 buys a lot of booze, food, and earplugs.

Clubs are like lounges. Quieter and less busy than the concourse. Electric outlets, wifi, bars (some are cash bars, some free booze), work stations, etc, etc. Some offer snacks.

I'm generally there long enough to use one. At some airports (IAD and LAX, for example), security is unpredictable so I tend to get there a bit early. On connections, it depends, a 1.5-2 hour connection is not long enough to leave the airport, and is to long to park in the concourse where you have to hear over and over announcements that "The TSA has limited the quantity of liquids..." or "Please keep control of your bags at all times".

Where the clubs really shine are irrops. They generally have folks manning a rebooking desk, with short lines. That alone makes it worthwhile.
 
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