100LL for the price of premium

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mikegreen

Pre-takeoff checklist
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mike g.
So I'm planning I73 to JVL today, and going to go East of Chicago if the weather is clear, just for the view... I was checking airnav for fuel on the route and say KOXI lists $4.28.... must be wrong... So I check the website ( http://www.starkecountyairport.com/ )... $4.28... So I call... $4.28.

Wow. I filled up my car with premium for $4.27 on Wednesday.

How do they do this? Subsidized by the city/county? Buy in bulk and using the price from 6 months ago? No taxes?

regards,

Mike
 
They don't rape people at the pump due to speculation. They buy, and sell it at whatever over cost they bought it until it runs out. Meanwhile at your local gas station the news says a camel farts in Baghdad and suddenly the stuff in their tanks costs 20-30 cents more per gallon.
 
Two factors:

1) Most FBOs don't change the fuel price based on what everyone else is doing (although some do - like mine)

2) More typically, fuel prices are set based off of what the FBO paid for the fuel. That 100LL may have been in that tank for months (one of the reasons why 100LL has some high stability requirements - it can sit for a long time before use). 6+ months ago, $4.27 wasn't uncommon for 100LL. I paid under $4 for it on more than one occasion that many months ago.

Typically, 100LL prices lag Mogas by ~6 months. Last time gas hit $4/gallon in late 2007, I could buy premium for the same price as 100LL. Then 100LL went up, and when Mogas went back down, 100LL cost twice as much as regular 87.
 
KOXI has been my gas stop going from the DC area to Osh for the last 4 or 5 years. Good people and cheap gas.
 
EdFred said:
They don't rape people at the pump due to speculation. They buy, and sell it at whatever over cost they bought it until it runs out. Meanwhile at your local gas station the news says a camel farts in Baghdad and suddenly the stuff in their tanks costs 20-30 cents more per gallon.
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Yes, and the news is correct for once. Very simple Econ 101.
 
sba55 said:
Yes, and the news is correct for once. Very simple Econ 101.
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Actually it's not very simple. Very simple would be demand goes up, price goes up. Demand did not jump enough in the past 2 months to drive the price from under $3 to over $4 a gallon around here, nor does it account fr 30 cent price jumps. This week the price went up 30 cents a gallon for no reason other than speculation.
 
It was $5.80 at the self serve pumps last weekend. Add 30 cents/gallon if they deliver in the truck. The County Dept of Aviation is the FBO at 4 local airports. The price changes on a whim, not when the ground tanks are filled.
 
One could remove the rather hefty taxes from both MoGas and 100LL if one really wanted lower prices... But that's a path to user fees.

Probably more interesting is whether or not those taxes are levied as a fixed price per gallon or a percentage of the price...
 
I'm selling at $4.73 full service right now based on a fixed markup over my FOB costs into my storage tank. The tank went empty yesterday. My new FOB cost will be higher than my current into plane price and will probably top $6 per gallon.
 
denverpilot said:
One could remove the rather hefty taxes from both MoGas and 100LL if one really wanted lower prices... But that's a path to user fees.

Probably more interesting is whether or not those taxes are levied as a fixed price per gallon or a percentage of the price...
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You can bet the farm the gov will retain the hefty gas taxes AND add user fees in the future... :nonod::nonod::dunno::no:;)

Ben.
 
EdFred said:
Actually it's not very simple. Very simple would be demand goes up, price goes up. Demand did not jump enough in the past 2 months to drive the price from under $3 to over $4 a gallon around here, nor does it account fr 30 cent price jumps. This week the price went up 30 cents a gallon for no reason other than speculation.
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This assumes everything else is constant. But, in reality there are a lot of variables. Supply varies, speculation varies, demand varies, but probabaly the most significant at this time is the dollar varies. When the value of the $ goes down due to diluting the $ supply with un-earned $, well then it takes more $ to buy the same things. It just takes a while for us sheep to catch on and begin demanding more $ for our work.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
2) More typically, fuel prices are set based off of what the FBO paid for the fuel. That 100LL may have been in that tank for months (one of the reasons why 100LL has some high stability requirements - it can sit for a long time before use). 6+ months ago, $4.27 wasn't uncommon for 100LL. I paid under $4 for it on more than one occasion that many months ago.
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Bingo. When I flew to TX for Thanksgiving, I spent $3.68, $3.45, $3.45, $3.64, $3.46, and $3.73 for 100LL. Those same airports are now charging $4.03, $4.72, $4.41, $4.62, $4.50, and $4.78.

The 2nd one is Sherman Muni KSWI, TX - Note that they went up from $3.45 to $4.72. Across town at KGYI North Texas Regional, the 100LL price was much higher when I passed through, but is now lower. Guess who probably had to get a new shipment more recently?

Every flight, it seems that the cheapest fuel around changes. Seems like I stop in Missouri for fuel a lot on my way south (to TX, AR, or wherever) and I don't think I've ever stopped at the same place on two different trips. K52, KMYJ, KTBN, M48, MO8, K89, KSIK, and that's just the ones I can remember. I'm guessing, though, that I usually end up with the oldest fuel around. :rofl: At least, if prices are rising...
 
The cost of fuel to the FBO is not a slow steady increase (or decrease). It is going up and down all the time with the overall trend increasing steadily with time. If you use a spreadsheet and plot the cost variations, you can try to time your purchase to minimize cost (and your price to the customer). I have enough storage capacity that I usually have a few weeks when I could accept a full tanker load and before I'm low enough on fuel to have to buy. I think that I've been fairly successful at buying "low" and saving our customers money but it isn't working this time. I just pumped the storage tank dry yesterday and only have 1 truck full left. That will last close to two weeks but I don't see any prospect of the cost turning.

This last cost excursion has been different. It has been just steadily up and up and up. First the Libya crisis and now the storm damage in the south is being blamed. Any excuse will do. I'm expecting my price to jump to about $6/Gal next week.
 
I flew from LAS to AUG and return in May of 2010.
46 hrs and 500 gallons of fuel later and the avg was $5/gal.
This year it would be closer to $6/gal or a little over
 
And the price of car gas just jumped another 20 cents yesterday for no reason.
 
Graueradler said:
I'm selling at $4.73 full service right now based on a fixed markup over my FOB costs into my storage tank. The tank went empty yesterday. My new FOB cost will be higher than my current into plane price and will probably top $6 per gallon.
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I don't keep close tabs on out fuel price but that's basicly our story. Sale price is based directly on what we paid to put it in our truck. Our fuel price changes when we get a delivery.
 
EdFred said:
And the price of car gas just jumped another 20 cents yesterday for no reason.
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We're paying $4.29/gal now for self-serve regular, which is equal to what we were paying at the peak of the oil bubble in 2008. Back then, though, the NYMEX per barrel price of oil was $145. Now it's $112. Doesn't track.
 
azure said:
We're paying $4.29/gal now for self-serve regular, which is equal to what we were paying at the peak of the oil bubble in 2008. Back then, though, the NYMEX per barrel price of oil was $145. Now it's $112. Doesn't track.
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I don't know if 87 got above 4 over on this side of the state in 2008. It may have hit $4.05 for a day or two. I do know something is fishy now though.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know if 87 got above 4 over on this side of the state in 2008. It may have hit $4.05 for a day or two. I do know something is fishy now though.
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What's fishy? The oil company officers have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize share holder return. (Not to mention wanting to line their own pockets.)

They are charging $4.29 because people will pay $4.29.
 
EdFred said:
And the price of car gas just jumped another 20 cents yesterday for no reason.
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Bin Laden! Oil Prices! Economy! Global warming! We're running out of oil! Aaaaaaaaaaaa!

Clearly, you just don't understand what goes into oil pricing. :rolleyes:

In 2000, the prices in Milwaukee (and Chicago) began skyrocketing, to the point where it was cheaper to drive to Madison and back to buy a tank of gas. Sen. Feingold decided to look into it... And a month or two later, the front-page headline of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel was "Feingold probe finds no valid reason for high gas prices." Prices county-wide dropped by 60 cents a gallon that day.

The real reason gas prices are still going up: Because we're still buying it. This is the "free market" at work. :mad2: It works in many areas, and needs to be regulated in others.
 
I have a question. Why don't we see Gas Wars any more? When I was much younger one station would drop their price then every one would fight to be the lowest. Gas would go from 20 cents/gal down to 12-10 cents/gallon in a few days and stay there for a week before the prices went back up to 20 cents. This was in the late 60's. Now the only gas wars I see are ones to see who can get their price the highest fastest. What stopped the competition?
 
One Short said:
I have a question. Why don't we see Gas Wars any more? When I was much younger one station would drop their price then every one would fight to be the lowest. Gas would go from 20 cents/gal down to 12-10 cents/gallon in a few days and stay there for a week before the prices went back up to 20 cents. This was in the late 60's. Now the only gas wars I see are ones to see who can get their price the highest fastest. What stopped the competition?
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We are too lazy to drive across the street to save money on gas is why.
 
Skylane81E said:
We are too lazy to drive across the street to save money on gas is why.
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Also we don't want to wait in line behind 5 other cars if gas is only a couple cents more expensive down the street.
 
One Short said:
I have a question. Why don't we see Gas Wars any more? When I was much younger one station would drop their price then every one would fight to be the lowest. Gas would go from 20 cents/gal down to 12-10 cents/gallon in a few days and stay there for a week before the prices went back up to 20 cents. This was in the late 60's. Now the only gas wars I see are ones to see who can get their price the highest fastest. What stopped the competition?
Click to expand...

They realized that people will buy from them regardless of their prices, so why cut into their profits by lowering prices?

People are also too dumb to even look. I've seen two gas stations across the street from each other with a price difference of ~30 cents/gallon. There were just as many people fueling up at the more expensive place as the cheaper place. I went into the more expensive one (I was buying breakfast, not gas) and ended up chatting with the owner. He said that the other station was selling gas cheaper than he could get it. But, he certainly wasn't hurting for business - I mean, seriously, how can people not notice a price difference like that when they're right across the street from each other? :dunno:
 
One Short said:
I have a question. Why don't we see Gas Wars any more? When I was much younger one station would drop their price then every one would fight to be the lowest. Gas would go from 20 cents/gal down to 12-10 cents/gallon in a few days and stay there for a week before the prices went back up to 20 cents. This was in the late 60's. Now the only gas wars I see are ones to see who can get their price the highest fastest. What stopped the competition?
Click to expand...

Several things:

1. When we were kids (or at least, when I was), the gas stations provided a broad range of services - they were truly *service* stations, and you'd get mechanical work done, cars washed, buy tires. No more. The service stations relied upon gasoline traffic as an opportunity to get you in so they could sell you other stuff - wiper blades, oil, whatever. Now, most stations are gas stations with convenience-store amenities, usually owned by refiners.

2. Same time, most major intersections had service stations on every corner - at least two, in any event. Now, we're lucky to have even one.

3. Consolidation means a lot fewer companies in the gas selling marketplace; when I was a kid, there were, between the two major intersections within a half mile of my home, dealers for: Enco (now Exxon) (2), Gulf, Sinclair, Shamrock, Texaco, Mobil and Shell. Now, there is one Exxon station, and the 7-11 sells gas.

4. Consolidation in the refining industry - largely due to federal regs which have made the smaller refiners we often used to have out of business - means you no longer have the degree of competition in refining and selling gasoline.

Fact is, there is very little competition in gasoline sales any more.
 
And it's only gonna get worse...
 
SCCutler said:
Fact is, there is very little competition in gasoline sales any more.
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That is the big issue. You can still have competition with a small number of manufacturers (I can think of several markets). However in the case of gasoline, you have both a small number of producers, and a product that virtually everyone depends on.

Recipe for holding people over an (oil) barrell...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That is the big issue. You can still have competition with a small number of manufacturers (I can think of several markets). However in the case of gasoline, you have both a small number of producers, and a product that virtually everyone depends on.

Recipe for holding people over an (oil) barrell...
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And over the last 4 days we've seen more evidence of this. On Friday, the price of oil dropped by about 15%. Everyone predicted the climb in gas prices would stop, then reverse, and travel would start to get affordable again just in time for the summer travel season. Prices in my neck of the woods inched downward cautiously over the weekend, ending up about 20 cents lower last night as compared with Friday. But NYMEX oil is now back up to $103. Guess what? Even though oil is 10% lower than it was a week ago, today gas prices are right back up where they were last week.

The law at work isn't supply and demand; it's the power of monopoly. :mad:
 
SCCutler said:
Fact is, there is very little competition in gasoline sales any more.
Click to expand...

Ted DuPuis said:
That is the big issue. You can still have competition with a small number of manufacturers (I can think of several markets). However in the case of gasoline, you have both a small number of producers, and a product that virtually everyone depends on.

Recipe for holding people over an (oil) barrell...
Click to expand...

Great. That means that Obama's task force is barking up the wrong tree.

I love this quote from the article linked above:

Gunning for oil speculators during QE is a bit like laying out mouse traps while also choosing to store your cheese on the kitchen floor. It would be far simpler to put the cheese in the fridge. Of course QE is under the control of the Federal Reserve, so hence we have blather about speculators.
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TangoWhiskey said:
Great. That means that Obama's task force is barking up the wrong tree.
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Is it a surprise to anyone that any government task force is barking up the wrong tree?

Politically neutral. I don't care which side they're on, it's probably going to be wrong.
 
And prices are to jump 30 cents a gallon here today - because of rain!
 
EdFred said:
And prices are to jump 30 cents a gallon here today - because of rain!
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This is totally insane. Prices here jumped to $4.19-$4.29 and are staying firm, even though oil dropped even lower yesterday than it did last week. Right now it's at $96.

Some senators are finally ramping up efforts to get speculation under control. Good for them -- it's about time. It's a big part of the picture. But still only part.
 
It sounds like they're trying to blame the recent jumps in gas prices on worries about the effect of Mississippi flooding on refinery output despite falling oil prices. Note the wording: so far the actual output hasn't been affected, it's worries about a possible effect that are causing the volatility. I guess if it isn't camels farting it's alligators.
 
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