100hr inspections

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gkdave

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If a plane is on a leaseback to a flight school/club and is due a 100hr inspection. Is the owner able to fly his plane past the 100hr and be grounded to any other operator?

thanks
 
No because, although the scope is the same a 100hr inspection does not equate to an annual inspection. For one thing, an IA is not required to sign off a 100 hr inspection.
 
Silvaire said:
No because, although the scope is the same a 100hr inspection does not equate to an annual inspection. For one thing, an IA is not required to sign off a 100 hr inspection.
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Scope is not the issue. If the plane had undergone a 100 hr inspection and not been found airworthy, the plane is not legal to fly. The issue is whether the plane needs a 100 hr inspection in order to fly, not for compensation or hire. Note that when the plane goes back into service, the time to next inspection is reduced by time over 100 hours between inspections. It is not clear what would happen after more than ten hours of non-covered use.

§ 91.409 Inspections.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.
 
You're right Frank. I forgot that although an aircraft may be receiving 100 hr inspections it is still required to have an annual inspection performed every 12 months so if the aircraft is still in annual and is not going to be used for hire there should be no issue.
 
gkdave said:
If a plane is on a leaseback to a flight school/club and is due a 100hr inspection. Is the owner able to fly his plane past the 100hr and be grounded to any other operator?

thanks
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My read is yes, you may. And in response to a previous post, my read is that if the airplane is then going to be used for rental/paid instruction (say at 120 past the last 100-hour), it would simply need a new 100-hour before being so used and the clock on the 100-hour would start from there.
 
You as the owner may fly the plane, regardless of the hours so long as it has had an annual done in the last 12 months
 
You can also rent it. Rental (without providing instructor or pilot) is not one of the two conditions requiring a 100 hour.

Some operators choose to just have all their 100 hours signed off as annuals (which you can do if you have an IA do them).
 
gkdave said:
If a plane is on a leaseback to a flight school/club and is due a 100hr inspection. Is the owner able to fly his plane past the 100hr and be grounded to any other operator?

thanks
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Yes the owner can continue to fly the aircraft until the next annual is due.

the flight school can only fly it until the 100 hour inspection is due.

The flight school is providing the aircraft and instruction.

the owner is not, unless they are providing the aircraft and the instruction, then it will be down until either an annual or a 100 hour is completed.
 
Thanks guys for clearing this up.

Brings up an interesting question. The plane is only rented to PPL or higher. Not for instruction. So, if I am understanding your responses. If no instruction is being done in the plane, just rental club, then no need for a 100hr.

Thanks guys you are great resource. I read the FAR/AIM but you need a law degree to figure most of it out.
 
Don't forget 100 hour AD s.
If a plane is rented not for hire but within annual you gotta have em.
 
Most of the time sensitive ADs (and I know of some at 100 hours) are not tied to either annual or 100 hour inspections. If you have ADs that have periodic compliance, it behooves you to keep track of that somewhere prominent.
 
Yes, you can exceed the 100 hour by any amount you choose when not for hire.

But there's a catch. Once you exceed the 10 hour over run, you cannot do a 100 hr and put it back to rent. Because the 100 hour is required by FAR, not to exceed 110 hours.

So the 100 hour will need to be signed as an annual to re-set the rental 100 hour clock.

Former Part 141 & 135 DOM.
 
philiplane said:
Yes, you can exceed the 100 hour by any amount you choose when not for hire.

But there's a catch. Once you exceed the 10 hour over run, you cannot do a 100 hr and put it back to rent. Because the 100 hour is required by FAR, not to exceed 110 hours.

So the 100 hour will need to be signed as an annual to re-set the rental 100 hour clock.

Former Part 141 & 135 DOM.
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Not true in part 91 owner operator. You can fly 110 hours, stop the instruction, fly for any amount you like until the annual is due, but you can do the 100 hour any time you like after the 110 hours and return the aircraft to the instruction line. The annual is due at the 12 cal. months no matter how many 100 hours you do.
 
philiplane said:
But there's a catch. Once you exceed the 10 hour over run, you cannot do a 100 hr and put it back to rent. Because the 100 hour is required by FAR, not to exceed 110 hours.
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Rental (without a pilot or flight instructor) is not "carrying passengers for hire." Strict rental does not require 100 hours.
 
flyingron said:
Rental (without a pilot or flight instructor) is not "carrying passengers for hire." Strict rental does not require 100 hours.
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Correct, but you cannot mix and match. Once past 110, you cannot go for hire until you annual the airplane, not simply do another 100 hour. There is no mechanism to reset the 100 hour clock other than an annual inspection. It's just a formality since it's the same scope and detail, but it is an important distinction. FAA case law confirms this, it's been discussed many times before, and many operators have been burned by thinking they can go to 111 hours and just do another 100 hour. The case law stems from Part 141 abuse of 91.405b resulting in violations, where they based their AIP on the manufacturer's maintenance manual, including the 50 and 100 hour inspections as part of their own AIP. Right or wrong, there is a big hole in the reg because it doesn't specifically state you can or cannot reset the over-flown 100 hour clock. So PMI's look at it as a violation, and they make it stick. Do it at your own risk. At dozens of maintenance law seminars, everyone I talked to agreed you must do an annual to clear an over flight greater than 110 hours. Those folks included lawyers who defend those certificate actions, and the FAA people that bring them. They all agreed if the next maintenance event had been signed as an annual, they would have no case.
 
philiplane said:
FAA case law confirms this, it's been discussed many times before, and many operators have been burned by thinking they can go to 111 hours and just do another 100 hour.
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Care to share this case law with the rest of us?

Are you speaking of Part 91 operations or Part 135/141 operations?


philiplane said:
Right or wrong, there is a big hole in the reg because it doesn't specifically state you can or cannot reset the over-flown 100 hour clock.
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Then if a regulation doesn't specifically state you can or cannot how does the FAA write the enforcement? What regulations would an Inspector cite in order to write the enforcement?

Are you speaking of Part 91 operations or Part 135/141 operations?

philiplane said:
So PMI's look at it as a violation, and they make it stick.
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Again, how? Again are you speaking of Part 91 operations or Part 135/141 operations?


philiplane said:
Do it at your own risk. At dozens of maintenance law seminars, everyone I talked to agreed you must do an annual to clear an over flight greater than 110 hours. Those folks included lawyers who defend those certificate actions, and the FAA people that bring them.
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Again, how does the FAA bring an enforcement action if no regulation was violated? :dunno:

Again are you speaking of Part 91 operations or Part 135/141 operations?



philiplane said:
They all agreed if the next maintenance event had been signed as an annual, they would have no case.
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Well, yea. But that could also include a 100 hour inspection. What is the difference between the 2 inspections other than the requirement of the person signing it (A&P 100 hour, IA annual)?

Again are you speaking of Part 91 operations or Part 135/141 operations?
 
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philiplane said:
Correct, but you cannot mix and match. Once past 110, you cannot go for hire until you annual the airplane, not simply do another 100 hour. There is no mechanism to reset the 100 hour clock other than an annual inspection. It's just a formality since it's the same scope and detail, but it is an important distinction. FAA case law confirms this, it's been discussed many times before, and many operators have been burned by thinking they can go to 111 hours and just do another 100 hour. The case law stems from Part 141 abuse of 91.405b resulting in violations, where they based their AIP on the manufacturer's maintenance manual, including the 50 and 100 hour inspections as part of their own AIP. Right or wrong, there is a big hole in the reg because it doesn't specifically state you can or cannot reset the over-flown 100 hour clock. So PMI's look at it as a violation, and they make it stick. Do it at your own risk. At dozens of maintenance law seminars, everyone I talked to agreed you must do an annual to clear an over flight greater than 110 hours. Those folks included lawyers who defend those certificate actions, and the FAA people that bring them. They all agreed if the next maintenance event had been signed as an annual, they would have no case.
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I think you're wrong. The 10 hour grace period is not just 10 extra hours tacked onto the 100 hours. Those 10 hours are there in case the aircraft is off station when the clock (100 hours) runs out so it can fly somewhere (while still for hire) to get inspected. If the aircraft is off station at the 100 hour drop dead time and it is flown home (not for hire, say, by the owner back to home base), the time it takes doesn't count against the next 100 hour like it would if it were flown for hire after the 100 hour expiration.

At 100 hours, an FBO can't schedule 10 extra 1 hour training flights and be legal. Those ten hours are specifically there to reposition the aircraft to where it can be inspected. Let's say the FBO stops using an aircraft for training flights when the 100 hour expires and just rents it out for another 20 hours--perfectly legal since straight rental does not require a current 100 inspection. Then the FBO decides they want to offer instruction again using that aircraft. Provided it's still in annual, they can have a 100 hour inspection done and again use the aircraft for instruction for 100 hours or until the next annual comes due. There is no need to ever do an annual prior to the previous annual's expiration.
 
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philiplane said:
Correct, but you cannot mix and match. Once past 110, you cannot go for hire until you annual the airplane, not simply do another 100 hour. There is no mechanism to reset the 100 hour clock other than an annual inspection. It's just a formality since it's the same scope and detail, but it is an important distinction. FAA case law confirms this, it's been discussed many times before, and many operators have been burned by thinking they can go to 111 hours and just do another 100 hour. The case law stems from Part 141 abuse of 91.405b resulting in violations, where they based their AIP on the manufacturer's maintenance manual, including the 50 and 100 hour inspections as part of their own AIP. Right or wrong, there is a big hole in the reg because it doesn't specifically state you can or cannot reset the over-flown 100 hour clock. So PMI's look at it as a violation, and they make it stick. Do it at your own risk. At dozens of maintenance law seminars, everyone I talked to agreed you must do an annual to clear an over flight greater than 110 hours. Those folks included lawyers who defend those certificate actions, and the FAA people that bring them. They all agreed if the next maintenance event had been signed as an annual, they would have no case.
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141 rules are different as the plane must be kept up to snuff while on the ticket. A plane operated under part 91 for part 61 training is different
 
Nonsense. 141 says the aircraft must be maintained and inspected in accordance with part 91, which is a pretty much entirely redundant statement (since you're required to do so anyhow).

You could let a student take an aircraft solo without 100 hour or just rent it. While the FAA may take a dim view of a school where a substantial portion of the fleet is not available for instructional use, there's no requirement that all planes in the fleet are always available nor are there any more stringent requirements for maintenance/inspection than anything else for these aircraft.
 
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Ok, you guys have me wondering something that I have always been confused on.

The plane is in a club. However, this club is not partial owners. The members pay a initiation fee and a monthly fee. They rent dry.

Does this then need a 100hr. There is no instruction done and all are PPL or greater renters. Unfortunately, the plane doesn't rent much maybe 2hrs a month if lucky.

So what are the rules now? Like I said, need a law degree to figure this out. Everyone has different opinions and seems to me, its all upon interpretation.

Thanks guys again!
 
gkdave said:
Ok, you guys have me wondering something that I have always been confused on.

The plane is in a club. However, this club is not partial owners. The members pay a initiation fee and a monthly fee. They rent dry.

Does this then need a 100hr. There is no instruction done and all are PPL or greater renters. Unfortunately, the plane doesn't rent much maybe 2hrs a month if lucky.

So what are the rules now? Like I said, need a law degree to figure this out. Everyone has different opinions and seems to me, its all upon interpretation.

Thanks guys again!
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As you describe it, the club does not need to 100 hour the aircraft.
 
Clubs seldom really NEED 100hrs. If the club does not provide the CFI then odds are you are ok with no inspections.

It may not be a bad idea however to do the 100hr anyway though. Speaking to the A&P who maintains a local club fleet recently he noted when they pushed the inspection intervals longer he started making more money. I can buy it too, as I do less work now that our school planes are on 50hr progressives.

However at 2hrs a month there is no need anyway, your annual will count.
 
Guys,
thanks for the advice, but where would I get definitive proof. It seems it is up to interpretation of the Regs. I ask because the school that I lease back to for the club says it does. They have a school and a club together. Does that make any difference?
 
gkdave said:
Guys,
thanks for the advice, but where would I get definitive proof. It seems it is up to interpretation of the Regs. I ask because the school that I lease back to for the club says it does. They have a school and a club together. Does that make any difference?
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If they provide the instructor then it must be in 100hr
 
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