100 mile cross country night time requirement quandry

Ok... Point taken. Still doesn't help. 61.109 say they're to a full-stop which is defined as a landing which ends in a complete stop and exit from the runway. So they need to be a taxi-back not stop-n-go.

Not being argumentative, but I've never heard 'full-stop' being defined as also an exit from the runway. Not saying it isn't so, but I've never heard that. Have a link for it? 61.109 just mentions "with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern". I don't see where full stop is defined as an exit from a runway.
 
Ok... Point taken. Still doesn't help. 61.109 say they're to a full-stop which is defined as a landing which ends in a complete stop and exit from the runway.

If the airplane stops fully, as in it ceases to move, it's a full stop. A specific location is not part of the meaning of the word "stop".
 
Not being argumentative, but I've never heard 'full-stop' being defined as also an exit from the runway. Not saying it isn't so, but I've never heard that. Have a link for it? 61.109 just mentions "with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern". I don't see where full stop is defined as an exit from a runway.

61.109a(2)ii reads 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
61.129a(4) reads 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

61.109 requires them to be "full stop"
61.129 does not

Full Stop as defined by ICAO:
"a normal landing which ends with the aircraft stopping and exiting the runway rather than doing a training exercise of touch and go"
Source: http://dictionary.dauntless-soft.com/definitions/groundschoolfaa/Full-stop+Landing
Which itself sources it from the ICAO English Pro Aviation Glossary

Trying to find an FAA definition but generally speaking, unless the FAA specifically defines it, the ICAO definition is what's accepted.

The AIM also notably makes a distinction between a stop-and-go and a full-stop landing when talking about "the option" though it doesn't elaborate further on what the difference is... AIM 4-3-22.
 
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I don't know what to say other than that I'm starting to think there ought to be some kind of vetting process before you're allowed to answer questions here.
 
I need softer walls in my house. I would have less concussions after reading people's off base interpretations of the regulations and requirements.
 
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...training-magazine/a-different-kind-of-landing

AOPA doesn't refer to it solely as "full-stop" but calls it a "full stop, taxi back." There is again however no definition of a full stop in this article or the definition bar on the side that says a full stop is coming to a complete stop and then taking off again... That is defined as a "Stop-and-go" which I again will refer back to AIM 4-3-22 which makes specific distinction between a "Stop-and-go" and a "full-stop" though it doesn't elaborate further.

I also know my local flight school's insurance policy defines a stop-and-go as any landing that is immediately followed by a takeoff that uses less than the full available length of the runway. Perhaps that is a bit to anecdotal but by that definition I suppose you dont "have" to leave the runway, you could back taxi on the runway but that's still a "taxi back" or taxi into position on an intersecting runway but both involve turning the airplane and at least in the second case you have "exited" the runway on which you landed and entered a second runway.

I don't know what to say other than that I'm starting to think there ought to be some kind of vetting process before you're allowed to answer questions here.

I'm assuming this is directed at me and my response, especially since you've already offered up a non-sourced definition that a stop-and-go is equivalent to a full stop... That attitude/response is just completely unhelpful and I'd offer you the opportunity to prove me wrong. So if you care to offer up a verifiable conflicting source that says a full-stop does not require an exit from the runway and that a stop-and-go is sufficient, I'd be happy to review it and accept that definition.

Googling for this answer seems to turn up this exact debate on several other boards as well (a long with the "what if I never stop during a taxi back" question) but I've been unable to find anything from the FAA confirming either to be the correct or incoorect or anyone who has offered a verifiable source for the stop-and-go definition (though it has been put forward before by others)... While you may feel I am wrong, my response at least seems to be the generally expected usage of "full-stop" by insurance (which these days governs GA more so than the FAA), ATC, AOPA and is further backed by a verifiable source in the form of the definition used by the International Civil Aviation Organization.

While many general aviation pilots will never fly internationally, ICAO definitions generally rule most of the world and the FAA has been making big strides in recent years to come more inline with the ICAO terms (Line-up-and-wait vs taxi into position and hold being probably the most noticeable one in recent years) and procedures. By the international standard, Stop-and-go is not the same as a full-stop.

I'd suggest that maybe this is something that a letter should be written requesting an interpretation from the FAA and its lawyers but I dont know that I want to be that guy who's name is attached to a decision from the FAA that seems bound to either **** off one half (those using a stop-and-go) or embarrass the other half (those using taxi back) of the pilot community no matter which ruling is issued.
 
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Next you'll be telling us that in order to come to a complete stop at a stop sign you have to turn off your car and get out before getting back in starting it up and proceeding. And if you write the chief counsel for clarification I swear I will burn your house down.
 
Next you'll be telling us that in order to come to a complete stop at a stop sign you have to turn off your car and get out before getting back in starting it up and proceeding.

Again I offer you the same opportunity to prove me wrong with a source that explains why the FAA via the AIM and ATC makes a distinction between "Stop-and-Go" and "Full-Stop" and/or shows the FAA considers a Stop-and-go equivalent to a Full-stop

I dont think comparing it to the definition of a "complete stop" at a stop sign is really applicable. There are plenty of other differences in aviation language from plain language.

And if you write the chief counsel for clarification I swear I will burn your house down.

Why? Afraid they might agree that a "full stop" and a "stop and go" are 2 different things?

This though is exactly why I dont intend to write the chief counsel... I'm either going to **** off a bunch of people skirting by with stop-and-go's or embarrass a bunch of people doing taxi-backs... Either way it's not going to result in a whole lot of friends and a lot more enemies.
 
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...training-magazine/a-different-kind-of-landing

AOPA doesn't refer to it solely as "full-stop" but calls it a "full stop, taxi back." There is again however no definition of a full stop in this article or the definition bar on the side that says a full stop is coming to a complete stop and then taking off again... That is defined as a "Stop-and-go" which I again will refer back to AIM 4-3-22 which makes specific distinction between a "Stop-and-go" and a "full-stop" though it doesn't elaborate further.

I also know my local flight school's insurance policy defines a stop-and-go as any landing that is immediately followed by a takeoff that uses less than the full available length of the runway. Perhaps that is a bit to anecdotal but by that definition I suppose you dont "have" to leave the runway, you could back taxi on the runway but that's still a "taxi back" or taxi into position on an intersecting runway but both involve turning the airplane and at least in the second case you have "exited" the runway on which you landed and entered a second runway.



I'm assuming this is directed at me and my response, especially since you've already offered up a non-sourced definition that a stop-and-go is equivalent to a full stop... That attitude/response is just completely unhelpful and I'd offer you the opportunity to prove me wrong. So if you care to offer up a verifiable conflicting source that says a full-stop does not require an exit from the runway and that a stop-and-go is sufficient, I'd be happy to review it and accept that definition.

Googling for this answer seems to turn up this exact debate on several other boards as well (a long with the "what if I never stop during a taxi back" question) but I've been unable to find anything from the FAA confirming either to be the correct or incoorect or anyone who has offered a verifiable source for the stop-and-go definition (though it has been put forward before by others)... While you may feel I am wrong, my response at least seems to be the generally expected usage of "full-stop" by insurance (which these days governs GA more so than the FAA), ATC, AOPA and is further backed by a verifiable source in the form of the definition used by the International Civil Aviation Organization.

While many general aviation pilots will never fly internationally, ICAO definitions generally rule most of the world and the FAA has been making big strides in recent years to come more inline with the ICAO terms (Line-up-and-wait vs taxi into position and hold being probably the most noticeable one in recent years) and procedures. By the international standard, Stop-and-go is not the same as a full-stop.

I'd suggest that maybe this is something that a letter should be written requesting an interpretation from the FAA and its lawyers but I dont know that I want to be that guy who's name is attached to a decision from the FAA that seems bound to either **** off one half (those using a stop-and-go) or embarrass the other half (those using taxi back) of the pilot community no matter which ruling is issued.
Well if we're going to be pedantic, the FAR says the landings are "to a full stop," while you shared the definition of a "full-stop landing." And when a statue doesn't define a word, generally the ordinary meaning is used. While an ICAO definition might inform that understanding, here the ICAO term wasn't used. If anything, that suggests an intention to mean something different.
 
It's not in 14 CFR 1.1 so don't add to the definition. Stop means stop. Did the wheels stop rotating? Its a stop. I don't care what the aim says I don't care what the ICAO says. I only care what 14CFR says.

Since stop is not defined in 1.1 we just have to use a normal dictionary definition because it's a common word.

Merriam Webster
: to arrest the progress or motion of : cause to halt
stopped the car
 
I'm assuming this is directed at me and my response, especially since you've already offered up a non-sourced definition that a stop-and-go is equivalent to a full stop... That attitude/response is just completely unhelpful

My source is the English language. Your sources, such as an AOPA article about how to properly perform a touch-and-go, are not just completely unhelpful but also misleading and deceptive due to your taking them wildly out of context. You have by no means "proved" that a landing to a full stop requires exiting the runway. In fact, far from it. Just the mere fact that you posted the above paper-thin "source" makes you look like you're grasping at straws and makes your argument weaker, not stronger.

While you may feel I am wrong, my response at least seems to be the generally expected usage of "full-stop" by insurance (which these days governs GA more so than the FAA), ATC, AOPA and is further backed by a verifiable source in the form of the definition used by the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Again, different context. ATC lingo carries special meaning because they care about what you're going to do after you land. If you request a full stop landing, you are expected to exit the runway, because what else would you do? Park the airplane on the runway and leave it there? You can't take off again--you haven't been cleared.

Yep, if ATC says "cleared to land", you better not perform a touch-and-go or stop-and-go, as you would be in violation of your clearance. Yet, a touch-and-go is a type of landing! That's why you're allowed to perform touch-and-goes to fulfill FAR 61 "landing" requirements unless they specify full stop.

Using your own logic, the FARs would not even need to specify "full stop" since you aren't allowed to do a touch-and-go if ATC only clears you for a landing...so that would mean, in accordance with your interpretation, the word "landing" just by itself requires a full stop! So why do the FARs sometimes specify full stop and sometimes not? Alas, your argument has fallen apart.

The FARs only care about what you do before you land — each must include a flight in the traffic pattern. If the FAR wanted you to clear the runway each time, they would have said so, just like they said they want you to fly the traffic pattern each time.
 
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My source is the English language... ...Just the mere fact that you posted the above paper-thin "source" makes you look like you're grasping at straws and makes your argument weaker, not stronger.

I was asked for a source for the definition. I provided a source for the definition.

Personally, I find the ICAO definition to be pretty strong source material but I understand why its easily dismissed. As I said, most US GA Pilots are unlikely to ever have to deal with ICAO, so I know the "international" doesn't command the respect the FAA does, especially since, despite recent efforts, the FAA does still deviate from ICAO in many places.

So no clutching at straws, just providing the additional supporting source information I found during my search efforts to find a more unimpeachable, less dismiss-able source than ICAO i.e. the FAA in an effort to show more than 1 source in the face of your initial response which was full of snarky, snooty, holier-than-thou, dont care what anyone else says or thinks, if the US/FAA says it aint so it aint so attitude that to me basically amounted a name calling for no other reason than because you disagree with ICAO and think I'm stupid for agreeing with ICAO instead of your much more learned opinion using your own interpretation of the plain language.

So my additional sources such as the AOPA or AIM are admittedly much weaker but are at least still third party sources. Given these other sources were similarly dismissed by you, its clear no amount of anecdotal/experiential evidence I could offer of personal experience in the way I was trained to treat a "full stop" by my CFI's in TX or the way "full stop" is treated by my CFI's in PA or the way I've heard "full stop" used by planes in the pattern, even at non-towered airports, is going to make a difference...

Personally, I find your own source, or lack thereof in preference of your own "plain language" interpretation, to be the weaker argument. I agree and acknowledge that a "full stop" could be defined as you've indicated but there are plenty of interpretations out there refuting the plain language interpretations of other FAR's and plenty of people have had their ticket violated over seemingly far smaller things and questionable semantics that I wouldn't rely on the plain language text.

I mean if my published sources are "paper-thin" what does that say about your complete lack of a published source

The reality is that if you're right and I'm wrong, the only thing my interpretation is costing me is time and a little bit of money (I can do 6 full stop, taxi backs with a go-around in about an hour of Hobbs in a Citabria and that's following all of the noise abatement procedures which requires I fly 3 miles upwind). If I'm right and you're wrong, well chances are fairly high you aren't going to get caught given any inspector is going to take your log book entries at face value and you seem increasingly unlikely to encounter a ramp check at any time at a small airport let alone a time where your stop-and-go's might matter and be witnessed by an inspector and determined insufficient for the purposes of currency.

Again, different context. ATC lingo carries special meaning because they care about what you're going to do after you land. If you request a full stop landing, what else would you do? Park the airplane on the runway and leave it there? Meanwhile, if ATC clears you to land, you better not perform a touch-and-go, as you would be in violation of your clearance. Yet, a touch-and-go is a type of landing. That's why you're allowed to perform touch-and-goes to fulfill FAR 61 landing requirements unless they specify full stop.

Using your own logic, the FARs would not even need to specify "full stop" since you aren't allowed to do a touch-and-go if ATC only clears you for a landing! So that would mean, in accordance with your interpretation, the word "landing" requires a full stop. So why do the FARs sometimes specify full stop and sometimes not? Alas, your argument has fallen apart.

These 2 paragraphs are completely contradictory of each other and seem to even validate my point... If ATC clears you only for landing, you are cleared to land and expected to clear the runway where directed and yes, you better not perform a touch-and-go, stop-and-go or otherwise linger on the runway. Unless a stop-and-go or touch-and-go is requested and approved, the default behavior expected is that you land and clear the runway... In other words you dont need to specify a "full stop" if ATC only clears you to land; its redundant.

The only time you need to specify a full stop is when ATC offers you the option, which gives you the option to decide what you want to do whether it be full stop AKA stop and vacate, stop and go or touch and go... You wouldn't tell them you're going to "full-stop" and the perform a stop-and-go as that would violate the amended clearance they are likely to give you once you say full stop and Tower doesn't really care what you do once you're clear of their runway, at that point you become ground control's problem but they do want to know what you are going to do after you land only because they want to know how you are going to vacate their runway and if it involves taking off again, such as in a touch-and-go or stop-and-go, what your intentions are once airborne. Telling them you plan to make a "full stop, taxi back" isn't really necessary though at smaller airports they may issue you a taxi clearance without switching over to ground while at a larger airport with larger planes it may result in a faster insertion into the line-up as telling them this will be a full stop with taxi back when first switching over to tower while still be vectored on a 3 mile final can save you several minutes of idling on the ground as they can immediately begin working on opening a hole in the lineup to get you back out.

As to the regulations there is only 1 experience requirement (at least for the 3 primary certificates of PPL, IRA and CPL) where the landings must be to a full stop and they must be at a tower controlled airport and that's 61.109a(5)iii. All other full stop landings can be performed at an uncontrolled field where you always have "the option" to perform a touch-and-go, stop-and-go or stop-and-taxi-back, so yes specifying "full-stop" is necessary for those other numerous instances where no tower is present and a full-stop landing is required.

It is still necessary even in the case of 61.109a(5)ii as you are unable to request or accept "the option" from ATC even if offered and perform anything other than a full stop and still get credit for it... The question of whether a stop-and-go is acceptable may still be debatable but 61.109a(5)iii is the only place in your PPL training (or anywhere else for that matter) that you would conceivably have to talk to ground control and that's only if you use the definition of "full-stop" as being a taxi back, all other requirements could conceivably be completed at uncontrolled airports without ground control or at a controlled airport via touch-and-go's or stop-and-go's without ever having to leave the runway via a taxiway and talk to ground. In that regard, it would make sense that the FAA wants you to have experience talking to ground control in which case a stop-and-go wont cut it.

The only other experience regulation that says anything about a tower is 61.129a(4)ii and it only specifies that the landings must be at night at an airport with an operating control tower... Therefore you can request and accept any clearance that results in a landing after a flight in the traffic pattern.

As to currency landings, 61.57a(1)ii says nothing about it being a towered airport and only requires the landings to be to a full-stop if in a tailwheel otherwise touch-and-go's are permitted and 61.57b(1) also similarly says nothing about it begin a towered airport and requires the landings be at night and to a full-stop regardless of landing gear configuration. Both of which again need to specify full-stop since you always have "the option" at an uncontrolled field.
 
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I was asked for a source for the definition. I provided a source for the definition.

Personally, I find the ICAO definition to be pretty strong source material but I understand why its easily dismissed. As I said, most US GA Pilots are unlikely to ever have to deal with ICAO, so I know the "international" doesn't command the respect the FAA does, especially since, despite recent efforts, the FAA does still deviate from ICAO in many places.

So no clutching at straws, just providing the additional supporting source information I found during my search efforts to find a more unimpeachable, less dismiss-able source than ICAO i.e. the FAA in an effort to show more than 1 source in the face of your initial response which was full of snarky, snooty, holier-than-thou, dont care what anyone else says or thinks, if the US/FAA says it aint so it aint so attitude that to me basically amounted a name calling for no other reason than because you disagree with ICAO and think I'm stupid for agreeing with ICAO instead of your much more learned opinion using your own interpretation of the plain language.

So my additional sources such as the AOPA or AIM are admittedly much weaker but are at least still third party sources. Given these other sources were similarly dismissed by you, its clear no amount of anecdotal/experiential evidence I could offer of personal experience in the way I was trained to treat a "full stop" by my CFI's in TX or the way "full stop" is treated by my CFI's in PA or the way I've heard "full stop" used by planes in the pattern, even at non-towered airports, is going to make a difference...

You provided a source from "Dauntless soft".

You provided a meaning for "full stop landing" not "landing to a full stop".

Your AIM source was in the "Air Traffic Control" chapter.

Your "sources" appear to be all in the context of ATC clearances which I will address for a second time below.

Many instances where the FAA requires "landings to a full stop" that aren't talking about towered airports, so an ATC clearance context is inappropriate.

These 2 paragraphs are completely contradictory of each other and seem to even validate my point... If ATC clears you only for landing, you are cleared to land and expected to clear the runway where directed and yes, you better not perform a touch-and-go, stop-and-go or otherwise linger on the runway. Unless a stop-and-go or touch-and-go is requested and approved, the default behavior expected is that you land and clear the runway... In other words you dont need to specify a "full stop" if ATC only clears you to land; its redundant.

I didn't contradict myself buddy, but you seem to have trouble understanding the use of logical reasoning. A logical argument requires a premise and conclusion. Sometimes multiple premises are required and sometimes arguments are chained together from premise to a conclusion which is another premise to another conclusion. My premise is not a conclusion. You seem to like taking things out of context.

The point I was making was that a term used in an ATC clearance carries a different context. In an ATC clearance the word "landing" always means full stop, so why does the FAA distinguish between "landings" and "landings to a full stop" if they're the same thing? The only explanations are (1) it's a mistake and the FAA is being accidentally inconsistent, or (2) the FAA regulations use plain English meaning of terms, not ATC phraseology.

"Landing" in an ATC clearance means something different than the plain English definition where the word "landing" simply means "the airplane touches the Earth's surface" (crashes excepted of course). If ATC clears you to land you aren't allowed to takeoff again because another clearance is required. So "landing" has a different meaning in the context of ATC clearances than its normal context. It logically follows that "full stop landing" might also have a different meaning in context of ATC than outside of that context. No contradiction.
 
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"Landing" in an ATC clearance means something different than the plain English definition where the word "landing" simply means "the airplane touches the Earth's surface" (crashes excepted of course). If ATC clears you to land you aren't allowed to takeoff again because another clearance is required. So "landing" has a different meaning in the context of ATC clearances than its normal context. It logically follows that "full stop landing" might also have a different meaning in context of ATC than outside of that context. No contradiction.

See now, I'd argue that "landing" in an ATC clearance means the same thing as your "plain English definition." A clearance to land is permission to allow your plane to touch the earth's surface on that particular strip of land. The landing phase is the same. In fact you still get a "cleared to land" when doing touch-and-go's or stop-and-go's. What differentiates an ATC clearance from an uncontrolled airport is what you are allowed to do immediately after landing which is to say you are not allowed to take off into controlled airspace again without ATC approval whereas landing at a non-towered controlled airport, you land and then have the option to do whatever you want because its uncontrolled.

Uncontrolled airports far outnumber controlled airports so it would make sense that the FAR would speak to the larger audience and defining it as "to a full stop" further has applicable usage when landing at a controlled airport and given the option or clearance for touch and go's (or arguably stop and go's).

I'd also note from a safety perspective, at some airports at night it can be impossible to tell how much runway you used in your landing and/or how much runway you have left to take off and the full-stop, taxi back landing for PPL are generally preferred for proficiency/safety reasons over using a shortened field. Thus a full-stop being a taxi back is consistent with safety which is usually the target of the FAR.

But whatever, it's clear short of an interpretation, you and I are going to disagree on this definition. You feel my sources are uncompelling and I feel your lack of sources are uncompelling; so be it. I'm not here to argue I'm here to educate or learn depending on the circumstance, I'm willing to concede ground based on an compelling argument and keep it civil and respectful. You dont seem to want to concede that there is any possibility that I might be right and have lacked the civility and respect with your thinly veiled insults. Ultimately we are at an impasse. You can have the last word if you like but all I've really done here is illustrate how your perspective on the premise differs from my perspective on the same premise... No thinly need to talk about how you cant follow logic or should be barred from posting on POA, just a statement of a difference of perspective/opinion.
 
In fact you still get a "cleared to land" when doing touch-and-go's or stop-and-go's.

No you don't. You want to make up your own facts or redefine words or ATC phraseology to be whatever you want them to be, I'm not playing that game.
 
I forgot what the question was to begin with....
 
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