10,000 gallons of Mogas

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
Back in 2002, with avgas prices hovering at a ridiculous $2/gallon (Imagine! I just paid $7.50/gallon in Des Moines yesterday), I decided to build a fuel truck that would eliminate the inconvenience and danger of fueling from 6-gallon gas cans.

Here's what it looked like:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/fuel_truck.htm

At the time, a friend wanted to buy mogas from me, so he paid for a gauge with a "gallon meter" that keeps count of how much we've pumped in total. Today, it tripped over to 10,000 gallons.

In that time, the original Nissan pickup truck (for which I paid a whopping $1800) died (the frame rusted through), and I moved the tank/pump assembly to my "new" 1995 Toyota T100. It now looks like this:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/new_mighty_grape.htm

I paid a grand $2500 for the "new" truck (and immediately put $2K into it), so for $4500 I've got a great 4x4 work truck that doubles as a fuel hauler. It's got 186K miles on it, runs like a top, and I drive it every day.

Those 10,000 gallons have been pumped into the three different airplanes I've owned in these six years, without so much as a burp. If you figure an average cost savings of about $1.50 per gallon, we've pocketed a cool $15,000, which has paid for both trucks, the installation costs, and a good portion of our next aircraft engine.

Best of all, it's safe, easy, quick, and we use it all the time for a hundred other things, from fueling our lawn care and snow-removal equipment, to offering fuel to folks who have run out of gas in front of our hotel.

And, finally, best of all -- all three planes run better on unleaded regular gasoline than they do on that nasty blue 100LL. All three of our planes (a '48 Ercoupe, a '75 Warrior, and a '74 Pathfinder) were designed to run on 80 octane fuel -- which hasn't been available for years. The mis-named "100 low-lead" actually has four times more lead in it than our engines were designed to run on, and -- as a result -- you have lean aggressively to prevent spark plug fouling when using it.

Not so with unleaded mogas, naturally. As a result, you can run your engine cooler, and cleaner. Just ask any mechanic what he finds when he opens up an engine that's been run on unleaded mogas, versus avgas, and he'll tell you that the blue stuff just packs your low-compression engine full of crud. Mogas engines, in contrast, are pristine inside.

Those 10,000 gallons have been burned at every temperature, at every altitude, in engines ranging from 85 to 235 horsepower. Not once have we heard a sputter, miss, or stumble. Guys who talk about mogas as if it's some sort of "inferior" airplane fuel are just spreading old wive's tales.

If you figure that my transfer tank holds 55 gallons, that means that I've run 200 tank-fulls through that truck, into my airplanes. With an average fuel burn of 10 gallons per hour, that's 1000 hours of absolutely trouble-free flying, and $15,000 in our pockets.

That's a win-win situation, all the way around! :yes:
 
Jay, I presume you're mogas is sans alcohol? Do you have difficulty finding a source for it?
 
Jay, I presume you're mogas is sans alcohol? Do you have difficulty finding a source for it?

Yes, and nope. Strangely enough, in Iowa -- the source of most of this ethanol pollution -- it's still easy to find ethanol-free mogas.

Don't know how long that will last, but I haven't heard any recent rumblings about discontinuing the practice of clearly labeling the ethanol-laced stuff at the pumps.

We test every tankfull for ethanol and water (haven't ever found either), although quite frankly all the research I've done points to 15% ethanol not presenting any trouble for our old, low-compression air cooled engines.

There's currently an aerobatic team sponsored by an ethanol plant that is running five O-360-powered RVs on pure, 100% ethanol, without any trouble whatsover. Just gotta replace some rubber parts, and you're good to go.

Of course, Brazil "discovered" this about 20 years ago...
 
Hey Jay atleast the cap matches this Truck (LOL).But i did notice you stayed with
Goober Green . just kidding look great wish i could use Mogas in my Warrior,but no place to geet it other then 5 Gal. cans and airport dont want that.
Dave G.
 
Very few cities/airports would allow you to fuel the plane while still in the Hangar.
In a row of double T hangars for example it could be worry about a chain reaction?
Does Iowa give road tax relief for off road use fuel?

This has been gone over in gory detail. Our FBO fuels planes in open hangars every day.

It is perfectly legal to fuel your plane in an OPEN hangar. It is completely illegal to fuel your plane in a CLOSED hangar.

That's the way our lease reads. I suspect it's the same at many airports.
 
Very few cities/airports would allow you to fuel the plane while still in the Hangar.

It's a federal thing. Jay says they allow it in open ones, but while we used to do it when I worked at an airport, we always made sure the sheriff wasn't around and we were told it's totally illegal.

In a row of double T hangars for example it could be worry about a chain reaction?

That's another story we were told - Of the guy who put 100LL in the fuel truck's tank which was supposed to run on unleaded - Catalytic converter started the fuel truck on fire with some poor line boy in it. He bailed out, and the truck crashed into the end of a row of hangars, and... :hairraise:

Does Iowa give road tax relief for off road use fuel?

Even if they don't, the feds do. Jay, if you file IRS form 4136, the gummint will give ya some more money back! However, you should also be filing and paying the aviation taxes. They are lower, though.

And, judging by this, there is an Iowa form 4136 as well. (Hey, that's user-friendly!)
 
A very cool setup, Jay!
 
Hey Jay atleast the cap matches this Truck (LOL).But i did notice you stayed with
Goober Green . just kidding look great wish i could use Mogas in my Warrior,but no place to geet it other then 5 Gal. cans and airport dont want that.
Dave G.

I was glad I found a "new" truck that was Goober Green, so that we could continue to call it "The Mighty Grape". The first one was purple grape, this one is green...

:goofy:
 
It's a federal thing. Jay says they allow it in open ones, but while we used to do it when I worked at an airport, we always made sure the sheriff wasn't around and we were told it's totally illegal.

I've not been able to find any "federal" rules to that effect -- and it's right in our hangar lease that it's perfectly legal to fuel a plane in an open hangar.

Some of this stuff is just so anal. The precautions we take for fueling aircraft -- versus what everyone does every day fueling their cars with the SAME FUEL -- are just completely out of proportion with reality or risk. When you open your hanger door (at least at my airport) your have removed 25% of the structure surrounding the aircraft. The nose wheel of the aircraft is a few feet from the tarmac, the fuel tanks are a few feet back from that.

The plane is grounded, the fuel truck professionally made, and there is plenty of fresh air circulating to dissipate any fumes. Additionally, we keep a fire extinguisher on the truck and in the hangar, and we are always cautious to ground the metal nozzle to the aircraft before opening the fuel caps.

There is no danger (or, at least, no more danger than there is fueling your ungrounded car under the canopy at the local gas station) and it is not illegal.
 
I've not been able to find any "federal" rules to that effect -- and it's right in our hangar lease that it's perfectly legal to fuel a plane in an open hangar.

While not federal rules, the NFPA codes and standards are usually adopted by Cities in their regulations. Chapter 407 relates to aircraft fueling, if you're inclined to really dig into the subject.


Trapper John
 
Some of this stuff is just so anal. The precautions we take for fueling aircraft -- versus what everyone does every day fueling their cars with the SAME FUEL -- are just completely out of proportion with reality or risk. When you open your hanger door (at least at my airport) your have removed 25% of the structure surrounding the aircraft. The nose wheel of the aircraft is a few feet from the tarmac, the fuel tanks are a few feet back from that.

The big difference between car refueling and airplane refueling is that cars are grounded all the time. Airplanes build up static charges that may or may not be dissipated by contact with the ground.

Also, when was the last time you refueled a car indoors?

You're right this topic has been rehashed before -- just not here.

The Air Force knows a thing or two about airplanes and we never refueled vehicles or aircraft inside hangars, ever.

Army refueling was conducted exclusively outdoors.
 
The big difference between car refueling and airplane refueling is that cars are grounded all the time. Airplanes build up static charges that may or may not be dissipated by contact with the ground.

Explain to me how that works. How is the car grounded? Why isn't the airplane grounded when it touches down?
 
The Air Force knows a thing or two about airplanes and we never refueled vehicles or aircraft inside hangars, ever.

Army refueling was conducted exclusively outdoors.


One would certainly think the Air Force and the Army would know what they're doing!

It seems to me that making the minimal effort to move the aircraft outdoors to fuel is worth the risk mitigation. Some people fuel before departing, in which case you have to pull the aircraft out of the hangar at some point anyway. Others like to fuel after a flight in which case the aircraft is already outdoors...


Trapper John
 
Just curious...when was the last time anyone heard of an accicental fire anywhere, anytime while fueling an aircraft using any of the numerous methods out there?

I'm with Jay on this one, we go "over the top" in safely fueling aircraft. I fuel mine in the hangar with the door open.

I too am curious how "cars are grounded all the time" because I didn't think they were. Teach me something today!
 
i guess most old cars with bumpers and mufflers dragging down the road are usually grounded...
 
i guess most old cars with bumpers and mufflers dragging down the road are usually grounded...
lmfao

The big difference between car refueling and airplane refueling is that cars are grounded all the time. Airplanes build up static charges that may or may not be dissipated by contact with the ground.
Could you explain what is magical about the car that makes it 'grounded all the time' compared to an airplane?
 
While not federal rules, the NFPA codes and standards are usually adopted by Cities in their regulations. Chapter 407 relates to aircraft fueling, if you're inclined to really dig into the subject.


Trapper John

Because it is raining out and I cannot go fly, I thought I would dig into it and add my 2 cents. I agree with Trapper John, I am not aware of a law, just the NFPA standards. Following this depends on whether it was adopted by the authority having jurisdiction. Interestingly, it does state that aircraft refueling be done outdoors and atleast 25 feet away from buildings. In reading the appendix (which outlines the intent) it states: "The precautions in 5.10.2 are intended to minimize the danger of ignition of any flammable vapors discharged during fueling and of fuel spills by sources of ignition likely to be present in the airport terminal buildings." With that, if you do not have any potential ignition sources inside, one would think it would be as safe as outdoors, although you would still be in violation of the code (if adopted). My FBO does fuel my plane inside with the doors open. During the summer, since I have a high wing Cessna, it drips fuel out the vent into the hanger after topping off the tanks. I just make sure the doors are opened a sufficient time to get rid of the vapors.

(One note, when dealing with wonderful world of standards and codes, we would interpret airport terminal buildings as any indoor facility. This is in keeping with the intent of the code to eliminate the chance of fires. In other words, the standard/code is NOT saying a fire is more likely to occur inside a terminal building rather than a hanger; it is stating there is a high probability of ignition sources inside a building rather than outside.)

As to the topic of grounding, the standard states that Grounding is NOT required and should not be used as it does not prevent sparking at the fuel level.

On the topic of bonding, when fueling overwing, if there is not a location to attach the clamp to on the airplane, you should touch the
fuel nozzle to the fuel cap before removing it, this will equalize the arcing potential.

One final interesting tidbit, if using a funnel, a metal funnel should be the only type used. From the apendix: "Ordinary plastic funnels or other nonconducting materials can increase static generation. The use of chamois as a filter is extremely hazardous."

OK, I am as bored as you all probably are. I am going to the airport and sit inside the plane, watch it rain and make airplane noises.:goofy:

Be safe.

Tim Gibbs
 
I've not been able to find any "federal" rules to that effect -- and it's right in our hangar lease that it's perfectly legal to fuel a plane in an open hangar.
Exactly the opposite in the lease agreement at my airport...

Section 5-4. Aircraft fueling locations.
All aircraft fueling/de-fueling shall be performed outdoors. Aircraft being fueled/de-fueled shall be positioned so that aircraft fuel system vents or fuel tank openings are not closer than fifty (50) feet from any building or hangar unless otherwise approved by the Airport Supervisor and Valley Regional Fire Authority or Fire Marshall.


Since the rows of hangars are less than 100 feet apart (e.g., 2x50), it's technically not allowed to refuel your plane anywhere near one's hangar....

Ron Wanttaja
 
We have a 500 gallon tank here at the farm for Mogas for the airplane and the tractors. Sure makes it handy (especially for aerobatics). So far we haven't had any problems getting fuel without ethanol. :fcross:
 
Maybe because cars roll on the ground.

Except the General lee, of course.

Oh yeah. I forgot, airplanes float in the hangar all night without touching the ground via tires like cars.
 
Oh yeah. I forgot, airplanes float in the hangar all night without touching the ground via tires like cars.

Cute.

Airplanes after landing may have a substantial static charge. Landing and rolling may dissipate some, but not all of the charge, especially if the roll is short.

Cars roll on the ground and dissipate static through the tires. Airplanes don't roll for the majority of the trip on tires (unless you just like to taxi around).

This is why ground crews always grounded incoming B-52s FIRST before touching any part of the airframe.

And B-52s have ALOT of tires, and a much longer ground roll than a C172.
 
Cute.

Airplanes after landing may have a substantial static charge. Landing and rolling may dissipate some, but not all of the charge, especially if the roll is short.

Cars roll on the ground and dissipate static through the tires. Airplanes don't roll for the majority of the trip on tires (unless you just like to taxi around).

This is why ground crews always grounded incoming B-52s FIRST before touching any part of the airframe.

And B-52s have ALOT of tires, and a much longer ground roll than a C172.

The Cessna 172 that just landed could have a static charge, as could the fuel truck that drove up to it. I think the difference in the time that their wheels was on the ground is going to be pretty negligible.

The main reason that you "ground" the fuel truck to the airplane is because either of them could have a static charge and you want them to be at the same potential.

The airplane that sat in the hangar all night, or the car that sat in the hangar all night--are the same thing. Sorry.
 
Cute.

Airplanes after landing may have a substantial static charge. Landing and rolling may dissipate some, but not all of the charge, especially if the roll is short.

Cars roll on the ground and dissipate static through the tires. Airplanes don't roll for the majority of the trip on tires (unless you just like to taxi around).

This is why ground crews always grounded incoming B-52s FIRST before touching any part of the airframe.

And B-52s have ALOT of tires, and a much longer ground roll than a C172.

There are a lot of tires on a 777 too, and I don't recall seeing the ground crew ground them before they get touched.
 
The Cessna 172 that just landed could have a static charge, as could the fuel truck that drove up to it. I think the difference in the time that their wheels was on the ground is going to be pretty negligible.

The main reason that you "ground" the fuel truck to the airplane is because either of them could have a static charge and you want them to be at the same potential.

The airplane that sat in the hangar all night, or the car that sat in the hangar all night--are the same thing. Sorry.

No kidding.

Back to the point -- there most certainly could be an airplane with a latent static charge inside a hangar.

Static sufficient to ignite a combustible mixture is readily produced (sliding your butt on fabric seats could build up enough charge to cause a spark).

Fuel and sparks outside a cylinder are not a good combination.

Refueling in the confines of any building -- especially a single airplane T hangar -- is more risky than refueling outdoors, due to the containment of a combustible fuel/air mixture.

The Air Force forbid the practice.

The Army forbid the practice.

The fire service doesn't refuel indoors.

And there are no indoor automobile gas stations.

I think I'll stick with those with a little more expertise on this one.
 
No kidding.

Back to the point -- there most certainly could be an airplane with a latent static charge inside a hangar.
As could a car.

Static sufficient to ignite a combustible mixture is readily produced (sliding your butt on fabric seats could build up enough charge to cause a spark).
Same for a car.

Refueling in the confines of any building -- especially a single airplane T hangar -- is more risky than refueling outdoors, due to the containment of a combustible fuel/air mixture.
I agree.
I think I'll stick with those with a little more expertise on this one.
Okay? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The only thing I challenged was your statement saying that cars are grounded by their tires whereas airplanes aren't grounded by their tires. Neither are grounded that well.

I agree that fueling a car or an airplane inside a building does pose risk. I don't agree that a car or C172 on the ramp are of any difference.
 
Okay? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The only thing I challenged was your statement saying that cars are grounded by their tires whereas airplanes aren't grounded by their tires. Neither are grounded that well.

It's not only the static from the flight we're protecting against when we ground an aircraft, it's the potential static from moving a fairly large volume of fuel from the tank to the airplane. Cars are pretty much grounded by the fuel nozzle being in contact with the filler port and its little metal flap on the car. Airplanes have wider filler ports and no flap. You should also be trying to keep contact between the nozzle and the metal edge of the filler port on the airplane. No grounding cable? Be REALLY sure you keep contact between the nozzle and the port.
 
Okay? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The only thing I challenged was your statement saying that cars are grounded by their tires whereas airplanes aren't grounded by their tires. Neither are grounded that well.

Cars are grounded all the time and in fact dissipate static charge by nature (rolling around on the ground).

(Earlier you wrote: "Could you explain what is magical about the car that makes it 'grounded all the time' compared to an airplane?")

Airplanes are not grounded once they leave the ground. The small amount of time during rollout and taxi may not be sufficient to dissipate the charge.

This explains why we always grounded the airplane (I worked on B-52s -- don't know about the TAC folks) before we touched it. Despite those massive, multiple tires and fairly long ground roll and taxi, the airframe still had a significant static potential.
 
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It's not only the static from the flight we're protecting against when we ground an aircraft, it's the potential static from moving a fairly large volume of fuel from the tank to the airplane. Cars are pretty much grounded by the fuel nozzle being in contact with the filler port and its little metal flap on the car. Airplanes have wider filler ports and no flap. You should also be trying to keep contact between the nozzle and the metal edge of the filler port on the airplane. No grounding cable? Be REALLY sure you keep contact between the nozzle and the port.

Good point.
 
It's not only the static from the flight we're protecting against when we ground an aircraft, it's the potential static from moving a fairly large volume of fuel from the tank to the airplane. Cars are pretty much grounded by the fuel nozzle being in contact with the filler port and its little metal flap on the car. Airplanes have wider filler ports and no flap. You should also be trying to keep contact between the nozzle and the metal edge of the filler port on the airplane. No grounding cable? Be REALLY sure you keep contact between the nozzle and the port.
Understand and not challenging the concept of establishing a link between the truck and airplane to keep both at the same electrical potential. What I was challenging is that a Cessna 172 sitting in a hangar over night isn't any different then a car sitting in a hangar over night.
 
[/S]
No kidding.
Refueling in the confines of any building -- especially a single airplane T hangar -- is more risky than refueling outdoors, due to the containment of a combustible fuel/air mixture.

I would contend that the airflow through my hangar, with the entire front of the building missing (as when the door is raised) allows similar airflows over my aircraft as does the canopy over the 16 gas pumps at my neighborhood gas station. Especially when you consider that I'm fueling a transfer tank that is underneath a fiberglass cap in the back of a pickup truck. (This cap is to protect the pump/tank assembly from the weather, which can be quite extreme here in the upper Midwest.)

Further, I would contend that my retractable grounding strap (between my truck and the plane) equalizes potential between vehicles better than the integrated wiring in the hose at the local gas station. And, of course, the hose on my fuel truck incorporates the same integrated grounding wire, so it's a "belt and suspenders" operation all the way.

We are always careful to touch the metal nozzle to the leading edge of the wing before opening the fuel cap, just in case a spark might jump. In 10,000 gallons, I've never seen one yet -- but I do it, anyway.

I always keep the metal nozzle in contact with the filler neck for the same reason. Which is a far-sight better than I can say for my neighbor, who pours mogas from several 6-gallon jugs into a plastic filtration funnel. (I used to do the same, and was always painfully aware of the static electricity build up inherent with fuel flowing over plastic.)

And, lastly, of course, fuel trucks have been filling airplanes in open T-hangars here in Iowa City since at least 1960, making for 48 years of safe fueling operations. It's hard to argue with a perfect safety record.

While what you say about Air Force regulations forbidding any but far-away-from-structures refueling is no-doubt true, I would be cautious about pointing to these aforementioned regulations as being unbreachable beacons of logic -- cuz we all know that this ain't necessarily true in the land of the $600 toilet seat.

:D

But whatever -- the original point of my post has been lost in all this minutia. Mogas is the way to go for those who are looking to fly a lot without bankrupting the household. With a home-made fuel truck like the Mighty Grape, it's easy, cheap(er), and far safer than the old "dump-a-Jerry-can-of-gas-in-the-wing" approach of old.
 
Explain to me how that works. How is the car grounded? Why isn't the airplane grounded when it touches down?

Airplanes can accumulate a considerable static charge during flight and it doesn't drain off easily through those tires, so we use a bonding wire. Pavement isn't a good conductor, either. Cars don't fly and don't gather static nearly so easily.

Fuel running through hoses generates static. Most auto filler hoses have a steel braid under the outer cover that acts to ground the nozzle and therefore the car's filler neck. Not all aircraft hoses have steel braid, and the braid in any case must be properly trimmed when the hose is assembled to provide the contact to its pipe fittings. The steel braid's primary purpose is to protect the hose from those drivers that run over it or scuff it against the pump island with a tire. Airplanes don't generally do that, so the hoses won't all have steel braid.

Fuel falling through airspace generates static. Many light aircraft tanks have a filler neck directly atop the tank, so the fuel falls a few inches through air and could cause problems in an ungrounded airplane. When is the last time you saw a car with its filler neck directly atop the tank, with no metal pipe between the filler and tank? My old VW is the last one I can think of.

Fuel hoses dragged over dry snow become charged with static. Fuellers wearing certain fabrics in cold weather will generate it when they rub against the airframe. Cold, dry weather, in any case, is the worst time for static. In the spring and summer, thunderstorms in the vicinity can charge the air, which the airplane's various bits sticking out all over will absorb, and a lightning strike nearby generates a huge radio spike that our metal airplane, thinking it's an antenna, will also pick up and store as a static charge. Those tires take a long time to let it go.

We run a flight school in western Canada. We see static sparks at night when the weather is cool and dry when we touch the fuel nozzle to an exposed screw head near the filler before opening the cap.
One of our grads blew himself off an airplane's wing in Alaska while fuelling from plastic jugs. Static, again. He was lucky, just getting a good scare.
One of our advisory board members flies Hawker 800s and after an inflight lightning strike, he landed and when he climbed a metal ladder to inspect the windshield frame for lightning burns, the plastic windshield zapped him and knocked him off that ladder. The windshield had stored much of the lightning's charge.

It's a hazard, folks. Gasoline fumes are heavier than air, and if you don't smell them in the hangar, that ain't good evidence that they aren't there. They'll lie on the floor for a long time, in combustible quantities, especially if there's no wind and especially if the floor is cool. No way would we ever fuel or defuel inside.

Dan
 
Better be careful about the local state laws WRT transporting gasoline in bed-mounted tanks in pickup trucks. In Florida, for example, it's a felony (Florida statute 316.80) to transport motor fuel or diesel in any kind of tank that is not D.O.T approved. The inexpensive tanks intended for farm truck use are usually not D.O.T approved. Approved tanks are very expensive since they must meet strict structural integrity and ventilation standards. Beware of tank makers who claim their tanks are "built to DOT standards" but are not actually DOT approved. In Texas if you transport gasoline in any kind of "cargo tank" for anyone other than yourself for your own use, you must get a fuel transport license.
 
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While what you say about Air Force regulations forbidding any but far-away-from-structures refueling is no-doubt true, I would be cautious about pointing to these aforementioned regulations as being unbreachable beacons of logic -- cuz we all know that this ain't necessarily true in the land of the $600 toilet seat.

Thanks for resurrecting apocryphal nonsense:

(From Wikipedia Article "Toilet Seat")

In 2004 Senator Chuck Grassley (R Iowa) said: "I exposed the spending scandal in the ‘80s when federal bureaucrats saw no problem in spending $600 for a toilet seat . . .". Some now claim that neither that nor his also famous revelation of the Pentagon spending $400 for a hammer actually ever happened. Others say the prices paid were fair and justifiable.

The $600 dollar toilet seat was determined to be "fair and reasonable" by a Naval Contracting Officer, based on his detailed knowledge of the manufacturing processes and degree of effort known to be required from the vendor, to manufacture this item.

The United States military services are often in the position of making equipment last decades longer than originally designed. For example the B-52 bomber is more than 50 years old and expected to be useful for another 20 years. The famous toilet seat came about when about twenty Navy planes had to be rebuilt to extend their service life. The onboard toilets required a uniquely shaped fiberglass piece that had to satisfy specifications for the vibration resistance, weight, and durability. The molds had to be specially made as it had been decades since the planes original production. The price of the "seats" reflected the design work and the cost of the equipment to manufacture them.

The problem arose because the top level drawing for the toilet assembly referred to the part being purchased as a "Toilet Seat" instead of its proper nomenclature of "Shroud". The Navy had made a conscious decision at the time, not to pay the OEM of the aircraft the thousands of dollars it would take to update their top level drawing in order to fix this mistake in nomenclature.

Later some unknown Senate staffer combing lists of military purchases for the Golden Fleece Awards found "Toilet Seat - $600" and trumpeted it to the news media as an example of "government waste." The Senate then wrote into the appropriations bill that this item would not be purchased for anything more than $140.00. The shroud has never been purchased since, as no one can make the shroud at that price.

President Reagan had actually held a televised news conference, where he held up one of these shrouds. During the press conference, he explained the true story. The media of the time, and still today, incorrectly reports that the Pentagon was paying $640.00 for a $12.00 toilet seat.

I suppose you dismiss Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators as well since the Navy is in DoD?

But whatever -- the original point of my post has been lost in all this minutia.

No, the safety of refueling inside a hangar was questioned -- that's not minutia, that's risk analysis.

Some of us choose to follow best practice established by professionals, whether those professionals are industry or military.
 
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The big difference between car refueling and airplane refueling is that cars are grounded all the time. Airplanes build up static charges that may or may not be dissipated by contact with the ground.

interesting
 
[/S]

I would contend that the airflow through my hangar, with the entire front of the building missing (as when the door is raised) allows similar airflows over my aircraft as does the canopy over the 16 gas pumps at my neighborhood gas station. Especially when you consider that I'm fueling a transfer tank that is underneath a fiberglass cap in the back of a pickup truck. (This cap is to protect the pump/tank assembly from the weather, which can be quite extreme here in the upper Midwest.)

Further, I would contend that my retractable grounding strap (between my truck and the plane) equalizes potential between vehicles better than the integrated wiring in the hose at the local gas station. And, of course, the hose on my fuel truck incorporates the same integrated grounding wire, so it's a "belt and suspenders" operation all the way.

We are always careful to touch the metal nozzle to the leading edge of the wing before opening the fuel cap, just in case a spark might jump. In 10,000 gallons, I've never seen one yet -- but I do it, anyway.

I always keep the metal nozzle in contact with the filler neck for the same reason. Which is a far-sight better than I can say for my neighbor, who pours mogas from several 6-gallon jugs into a plastic filtration funnel. (I used to do the same, and was always painfully aware of the static electricity build up inherent with fuel flowing over plastic.)

And, lastly, of course, fuel trucks have been filling airplanes in open T-hangars here in Iowa City since at least 1960, making for 48 years of safe fueling operations. It's hard to argue with a perfect safety record.

While what you say about Air Force regulations forbidding any but far-away-from-structures refueling is no-doubt true, I would be cautious about pointing to these aforementioned regulations as being unbreachable beacons of logic -- cuz we all know that this ain't necessarily true in the land of the $600 toilet seat.

:D

But whatever -- the original point of my post has been lost in all this minutia. Mogas is the way to go for those who are looking to fly a lot without bankrupting the household. With a home-made fuel truck like the Mighty Grape, it's easy, cheap(er), and far safer than the old "dump-a-Jerry-can-of-gas-in-the-wing" approach of old.


Jay, I fully agree with your assessment of the benefits of mogas for aircraft that can use it.

I would be concerned about your setup with the tank within another containment structure (i.e. the fiberglass topper). Your bulk tank has some type of venting system to manage pressure changes in the tank due to weather conditions. At the very least, make sure the vent system extends through the topper, so you don't get a potentially explosive build-up of fuel vapor within the topper.

There's a reason serious engineer-types think about these things and develop standards. It's to keep everyone safe. And following the procedures will help keep self-transported mogas a viable option. If we get enough people out there doing it wrong and causing tragic fires, guess what, we'll lose that option.

And you're not doing your local firefighters any favors by concealing that bulk tank and not having any labeling on the vehicle...


Trapper John
 
Thanks for resurrecting apocryphal nonsense:

Oooooooo....sorry. Didn't mean to hit a sore spot.

I'm glad you're proud of our military -- so are we (our son is Army ROTC at the University of Iowa) -- but I think we all know how stupid our gummint can be when it comes to regulations.

How 'bout this one, instead: NASA spent millions developing a ballpoint pen that would work in outter space.

The Russians used a pencil. D'oh!

No one argues that -- at some level -- it's safer to fuel on the ramp than it is in the open hangar. It's also safer to walk than to drive, and flying is just crazy-dangerous. Dang things fall out of the sky every day.

I try to find the common-sense way through life. That approach has served me well, thus far.
 
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