RSV vaccine

[Half Fast]

How often do engineering issues get involved in blatant misinformation campaigns bought into by so many people? Can you show me an example? I can’t think of one.

How many electric airplane companies have you invested in that promised a battery miracle any day now?

I'm not going to drag the thread further OT. I merely wanted to point out how your post could be perceived.

 

[Llewtrah381]

and less science

Can you back that up?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Can you back that up?

So....was more science or less science applied to the COVID mRNA vaccines compared with previous vaccine releases?...maybe small pox or mumps (MMR)?

And why are those irradiated....but we still have COVID?

 

[Llewtrah381]

I’d say a ton more science. mRNA vaccines are a new approach to vaccines. How is that not “more science”? How is it “less science”?

“Irradiated” - did you mean “eradicated”? If so, very true for smallpox. Not so much for measles or mumps - with upticks recently due to the anti-vaxxers - the source of the meme I’m catching flak for sharing. And MMR is a pretty “traditional” vaccine.

And let me clarify: while I believe the science behind mRNA vaccines, I still personally harbor some concerns about their long-term safety. Not because of any scientific evidence that I’ve seen to that effect but because I still don’t fully understand the consequences of how they work. They trick our cells into making a foreign protein for our immune system to then attack. Conceptually that seems like it risks things like autoimmune diseases, etc. which I don’t think have happened yet.

 

[GaryM]

So....was more science or less science applied to the COVID mRNA vaccines compared with previous vaccine releases?...maybe small pox or mumps (MMR)?

And why are those irradiated....but we still have COVID?

More science. Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines ran phase 3 clinical trials with 35,000-40,000 people. That's an unprecedented scale. Most phase 3 trials enroll no more than a couple of thousand. And if you have prescription medicines in your cabinet now, there is a pretty good chance some were approved after testing on fewer than five hundred people.

You can find clinical trial results at https://clinicaltrials.gov. I studied the EUA submittal documents on that site for both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, and I was impressed. They tested on subgroups divided by age, sex, race, ethnicity, obesity, hypertension, diabetes, chronic kidney disease, asthma, chronic lower respiratory diseases, nicotine dependence, substance use disorder, ischaemic heart disease and other forms of heart disease, socioeconomic deprivation, cancer (and haematological cancer in particular), chronic liver disease, stroke, dementia, organ transplant, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, psoriasis, disorders involving an immune mechanism...over 40 comorbidities in all. I've never seen trials cover so much ground.

Smallpox and mumps are happy cases in that the viruses don't mutate into other virulent forms. The vaccines have evolved and improved over time, but they've only had to target the same old virus. The mumps vaccine still targets the same virus that microbiologist Maurice Hilleman cultured from his daughter's throat in 1963. The virus is named for her; it's the Jeryl Lynn strain.

At the other end of the scale, HIV mutates so rapidly, while retaining virulence, that a successful vaccine has yet to be developed, despite decades of effort.

Flu is somewhere in the middle. It mutates into new, infectious strains, while at the same time known strains become more or less prevalent in Asia, so it's a new challenge every year when flu season arrives in our hemisphere. So the vaccine is a little different every year.

Covid, of course, also mutates. I've not been counting, but the number of identified strains must be in the low dozens by now. Antibodies raised by the vaccines still work against any of them, but with varying degrees of effectiveness.

Pathogens tend to evolve to become more infectious but less deadly over time...that's what success looks like for a virus or bacterium. They can propagate most effectively if they don't kill their host. Fortunately, Covid is following that pattern. The current strains are much less dangerous than the Covid classic that first arrived on our shores.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

You're absolutely right about the false equivalence. In particular in the last 15 years the internet has given voice to the mindless, rudderless, incompetent mob.
The mob that believes that an ignorant opinion, if amplified and shared widely enough is just as valid as the truth. They love to sort of have a "democratic truth" based less on data and more about how charismatically you can sell your viewpoint.

It's nauseating to anyone that has taken the time and dedication to master a subject. Spending a couple decades learning the ins and outs of microbiology, virology and immunology -- and BOOM, with the release of 1 "viral" TikTok (no pun intended) video, you can be considered no more knowledgeable on the topic than some entertainment asshat slinging BS for clicks.

So yeah, your meme was absolutely on-point and reflective of the society we live in today -- even if it hits too close to home for some.

EDIT: I think it's self evident that most people questioning vaccine science are NOT former biomedical engineers and/or credible scientists. It's your garden variety proudly uneducated and C-List celebrities looking for 15 minutes of fame and relevance.
(removed my previous michigan reference that many probably wouldn't get lol)

You edit regarding no debate within scientific community are not accurate.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I’d say a ton more science. mRNA vaccines are a new approach to vaccines. How is that not “more science”? How is it “less science”?

“Irradiated” - did you mean “eradicated”? If so, very true for smallpox. Not so much for measles or mumps - with upticks recently due to the anti-vaxxers - the source of the meme I’m catching flak for sharing. And MMR is a pretty “traditional” vaccine.

And let me clarify: while I believe the science behind mRNA vaccines, I still personally harbor some concerns about their long-term safety. Not because of any scientific evidence that I’ve seen to that effect but because I still don’t fully understand the consequences of how they work. They trick our cells into making a foreign protein for our immune system to then attack. Conceptually that seems like it risks things like autoimmune diseases, etc. which I don’t think have happened yet.

I know a PhD bioscience doc and he is not taking anymore mRNA vaccines. Did the initial and two rounds of boosters but no more. He deems the risk of vaccine to be higher than risk of Covid at this point.


General comment unrelated to quoted post follows:

What I find annoying about this continued debate is how polarized it has become.

If I don’t take the vaccine I’m assumed to be a drooling idiot that’s doing everyone a favor taking myself out of the gene pool and a risk to others.

If I do take the shot another group assumes I’m a statist lemming that treats science like a God.

I think all the people in those two groups should **** off.

 

[Morgan3820]

I’ll just wait for herd immunity to kick in.

 

[172andyou]

I know a PhD bioscience doc and he is not taking anymore mRNA vaccines. Did the initial and two rounds of boosters but no more. He deems the risk of vaccine to be higher than risk of Covid at this point.

Then he's horrible at math. The disease, even today with better treatments and a less lethal variant currently being the most common one, is between 10,000 and 100,000 times more dangerous than the vaccine. It's not even close.

 

[Llewtrah381]

He deems the risk of vaccine to be higher than risk of Covid at this point.

At this point, I think he’s closer to being right, especially depending on the demographic (I don’t see evidence yet that the vaccine is harmful and also note that the current strains of Covid would not have triggered the international reaction the original Covid-19 did).

But I still don’t believe he’s correct.

 

[172andyou]

And let me clarify: while I believe the science behind mRNA vaccines, I still personally harbor some concerns about their long-term safety. Not because of any scientific evidence that I’ve seen to that effect but because I still don’t fully understand the consequences of how they work. They trick our cells into making a foreign protein for our immune system to then attack. Conceptually that seems like it risks things like autoimmune diseases, etc. which I don’t think have happened yet.

Remember that the vaccine is gone from your body and your cells within a few days. As a result, so is the potential for harm. If we were going to see a signal suggesting an autoimmune side effect, we would have seen it long ago.

The community has been investigating mRNA vaccines for 30 years. None of this is new. The world got very, very lucky that covid didn't emerge until mRNA technology was as mature as it was. Nothing was rushed to market, we just got lucky this time.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

So....COVID is gone?

 

[YooperMooney]

President B and Vice President KH were briefed by "top men" that were the most knowledgeable of the Wuhan flu. They then made a slurry of bizarre statements in their speeches such as "You can't spread the virus if you're vaccinated" , "If you get the vaccine, you're not going to die" , "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations." etc etc. Heck, during the 2020 election campaign Kameala Harris even states that she will not take a vaccine that Donald Trump says to take...
So, here We The People are left dazed and confused on WTF is going on and what to do. I wouldn't just point my finger at tik toc videos to blame for misinformation -- maybe we should start with the Office of the President...

 

[Llewtrah381]

So....COVID is gone?

Of course not. And it has been with humanity for a long, long time, I suspect (centuries? Millennia?) But the Covid-19 virus which caused the international response because of its demonstrated risk has mutated to a less virulent set of strains. Covid will be with humanity pretty much for as long as we’re around, I think.

 

[Llewtrah381]

President B and Vice President KH were briefed by "top men" that were the most knowledgeable of the Wuhan flu. They then made a slurry of bizarre statements in their speeches such as "You can't spread the virus if you're vaccinated" , "If you get the vaccine, you're not going to die" , "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations." etc etc. Heck, during the 2020 election campaign Kameala Harris even states that she will not take a vaccine that Donald Trump says to take...
So, here We The People are left dazed and confused on WTF is going on and what to do. I wouldn't just point my finger at tik toc videos to blame for misinformation -- maybe we should start with the Office of the President...

What’s “Wuhan flu”?

This thread is about RSV with a digression into Covid but not influenza/“flu”

Regarding Covid-19 response and vaccine development, remember which President implemented both.

 

[Llewtrah381]

President B and Vice President KH were briefed by "top men" that were the most knowledgeable of the Wuhan flu. They then made a slurry of bizarre statements in their speeches such as "You can't spread the virus if you're vaccinated" , "If you get the vaccine, you're not going to die" , "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations." etc etc. Heck, during the 2020 election campaign Kameala Harris even states that she will not take a vaccine that Donald Trump says to take...
So, here We The People are left dazed and confused on WTF is going on and what to do. I wouldn't just point my finger at tik toc videos to blame for misinformation -- maybe we should start with the Office of the President...

What’s “Wuhan flu”?

This thread is about RSV with a digression into Covid but not influenza/“flu”

Regarding Covid-19 response and vaccine development, remember which President implemented both.

 

[weilke]

TLDR on the covid detour

Am older than 60 with very mild asthma otherwise healthy. My Dr recommended I get the RSV vaccine. After the covid debacle am a little concerned about ulterior motives, especially respiratory related. Is this shot safe?

As an asthmatic, you don't want RSV. This used to be a virus that was only a threat to young kids who had damaged lungs from premature birth and to severely immunocompromised adults. This has changed, the brand of RSV that has been going around in the past year has put many younger individuals in the hospital, at times into the ICU. Viruses change their profile, it's what they do. Looks like RSV has dialed it up lately. So if your PCP, who knows your risk profile, recommends you get the vaccine, I would probably give that more weight than the collected internet wisdom.

 

[Racerx]

I'm all for vaccines. Stupidity has led to lethal diseases we already beat come back and kill us all over again. I'm not as bullish on shots. Mainly cuz I'm too lazy to get em. But my risk profile is different than you. I did not go the MRNA route with COVID and went Johnson & Johnson

 

[YooperMooney]

What’s “Wuhan flu”?

This thread is about RSV with a digression into Covid but not influenza/“flu”

Regarding Covid-19 response and vaccine development, remember which President implemented both.

Wuhan Flu, i.e. Wuhan Virus is colloquial for the 100 different references to what the CDC later endorsed as COVID-19. Wuhan Virus/Flu etc is acceptable terminology.

My intent to discuss misinformation spread by Biden was to point out how confusing the dilemma was for our No. 1 leader. Therefore social media is not the sole player for spreading fake and/or inaccurate news...

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Wuhan Flu, i.e. Wuhan Virus is colloquial for the 100 different references to what the CDC later endorsed as COVID-19. Wuhan Virus/Flu etc is acceptable terminology.

My intent to discuss misinformation spread by Biden was to point out how confusing the dilemma was for our No. 1 leader. Therefore social media is not the sole player for spreading fake and/or inaccurate news...

You mean like yourself.

Colloquial does not mean acceptable, for instance, saying " you lie like a dirty rug" is colloquial, but not acceptable. Selective quotation without context, or providing false context, is also misinformation.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Remember that the vaccine is gone from your body and your cells within a few days. As a result, so is the potential for harm.

I’m gonna get a bit nerdy here.

Whereas “traditional” vaccines introduced a foreign protein from a pathogen for the body’s immune system to do its thing and build a defense against, the mRNA and J&J vaccines take a different approach. They Trojan Horse in the code for a protein, for the body’s own cells to make the “foreign” protein with its protein-making machinery (the ribosome). That seems really close to making the “foreign” protein be “my” protein, which is why I personally wonder how our bodies discern the difference and avoid an autoimmune disease (basically our immune system attacking itself). Our bodies are way more “advanced” than we realize, apparently, since they don’t kill off helpful gut bacteria but do kill off harmful ones in the gut, for instance.

If we were going to see a signal suggesting an autoimmune side effect, we would have seen it long ago.

I agree.

I think it’s healthy to ask tough questions about pretty much anything, so long as we’re open to accepting an answer we didn’t expect or maybe want. That’s how we make progress.

It’s counterproductive to hold rock-solid to a position just because we want it to be true - regardless of which “side” of an issue one is on. Propagandists manipulate all of us by playing our natural tendency to want things to be as we believe. All of us.

 

[YooperMooney]

Do you also go bananas when you hear the terms "German Measles" or "Hong Kong Flu"? Seems like the silent majority summed up everything at the moment that politically-correct terminology was more important than spreading the facts.
The quotes I listed are factual and did happen. You sure well know that the current Presidential administration spread so much BS that left almost every single American confused. That may well have not been his greatest achievement as President but my point is that he sincerely contributed to the confusion. That bozo even stated that no Federal employees will be forced to get the vaccine and then six month layer flip flops 100%. Yet again, millions of people dazed and confused due to misinformation from the CEO of the USA.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I didn't "go bananas" (and saying I did is part of the problem these days). "German measles" (Rubella) is indeed a form of measles. "Hong Kong Flu" (a variant of influenza) is indeed influenza. "Wuhan flu" is not influenza. But none of those terms are used routinely by reputable scientists these days, whether for PC reasons or not and their use tends to signal the user is not in those circles. They have no true scientific benefit but are good political ones in certain circles.

The "confusion" started well before 2021, under the previous administration.

 

[YooperMooney]

I agree with you 100% on that including the part about confusion! I was hired and worked under the Bush Jr. admin, then Barry, then The Don, and now Great-Great Gramps and its been nothing but a real circus. Plenty of clowns at the helm that couldn't operate a hot dog stand.

 

[Charlie Golf]

I’ll just wait for herd immunity to kick in.

That will kick in somewhere between the 11th and 14th boosters.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

At this point, I think he’s closer to being right, especially depending on the demographic (I don’t see evidence yet that the vaccine is harmful and also note that the current strains of Covid would not have triggered the international reaction the original Covid-19 did).

But I still don’t believe he’s correct.

Considering he has been involved in mRNA vaccine research during his career I tend to trust his insight. I do however include my PCP in all decisions. So far he’s always been in agreement.

But that’s kinda the point to the little thread drift. mRNA vaccines are new. It will take a generation to fully determine all the consequences. Does not make them bad or good. It’s just the way it is. Nothing special. All new meds face the same questions.

 

[murphey]

Do you also go bananas when you hear the terms "German Measles" or "Hong Kong Flu"? Seems like the silent majority summed up everything at the moment that politically-correct terminology was more important than spreading the facts.
The quotes I listed are factual and did happen. You sure well know that the current Presidential administration spread so much BS that left almost every single American confused. That may well have not been his greatest achievement as President but my point is that he sincerely contributed to the confusion. That bozo even stated that no Federal employees will be forced to get the vaccine and then six month layer flip flops 100%. Yet again, millions of people dazed and confused due to misinformation from the CEO of the USA.

Around here we try very hard not to inject political opinions. But you’re a relative newbie around here, so we’ll treat you as the newbie you are……..for the time being.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Then he's horrible at math. The disease, even today with better treatments and a less lethal variant currently being the most common one, is between 10,000 and 100,000 times more dangerous than the vaccine. It's not even close.

no he’s actually very good at math.

 

[172andyou]

It will take a generation to fully determine all the consequences.

If he told you that, then that's another part of the math that he doesn't understand. It doesn't take a generation, it takes enough data to get good statistics. For treatments (drugs and vaccines) that aren't common, getting the statistics can take a long time and sometimes they are still incomplete.

The mRNA vaccines are very likely the most widely distributed treatments in history. We have the data. They are vastly, vastly safer than getting COVID. Even today. It's not even close.

 

[172andyou]

no he’s actually very good at math.

Well, you've only quoted two of his math results in this thread and they were both wrong. I'm willing to adjust my finding based on additional data though. Two is a very small sample size.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Well, you've only quoted two of his math results in this thread and they were both wrong. I'm willing to adjust my finding based on additional data though. Two is a very small sample size.

I haven’t quoted any math results. Plus I think you are seeing what you want to see just to argue.

I said HE made the decision that additional Covid vaccinations were more risk than Covid for HIM, not everyone on the planet.

People need to consult their PCP and make an informed decision. Politics and all of the self righteousness around this need to stop.

 

[172andyou]

I haven’t quoted any math results. Plus I think you are seeing what you want to see just to argue.

I said HE made the decision that additional Covid vaccinations were more risk than Covid for HIM, not everyone on the planet.

Nope. You didn't say the "for him" part. You made a more general, and wrong, statement. If you want to modify it and add "for him" fine. If he had allergic reactions to previous doses, for example, he may well be better off getting a different formula.

People need to consult their PCP and make an informed decision. Politics and all of the self righteousness around this need to stop.

Absolutely.

 

[Charlie Golf]

....

People need to consult their PCP and make an informed decision. Politics and all of the self righteousness around this need to stop.

This.^^^

The self-proclaimed leaders of the medical/scientific community chose to become politicized a few years ago, and now we're reaping the rewards of that mistake.

The scientific process should have more credibility than the political process. I don't think that's a very high bar to exceed, LOL.

 

[AKiss20]

The self-proclaimed leaders of the medical/scientific community chose to become politicized a few years ago, and now we're reaping the rewards of that mistake.

The vast majority in the scientific community have no interest in being politicized. I know many people working in climate science, biomedical research, and beyond. They hate that their work has become a political football, not least because it means their important work gets jerked around, funded and then defunded, as administrations change.

A few decades ago some politicians saw they could gain power by selling the fear of conspiracy to voters, and by doing so, sowed the seeds for where we are now.

 

[Ed Haywood]

RSV is extremely contagious, to the point where almost all children have had it multiple times by the time they are a few years old. It is one of the most common causes of infant hospitalization, though fortunately not fatalities.

Throughout your life, you will occasionally catch RSV as your natural immunity wanes. Symptoms are generally mild because of residual antibodies.

As you get older, it gets more severe. RSV is also a common cause of hospitalization of the elderly, especially in close quarters settings such as assisted living facilities and nursing homes, and not an uncommon cause of death.

I caught RSV in March 2020, right when COVID was kicking off. Symptoms are almost identical. Everyone was sure I had COVID til the test came back RSV. It was comparable to the flu in severity.

Personally I would not get the RSV vaccine unless I was high risk, eg elderly (>80) or in poor respiratory health. Not because I distrust vaccines, just that the odds of natural recovery without complications are very high for most people, since almost everyone has had it multiple times.

I knew two people who refused the COVID vaccine for political reasons. Both of them were in their early 60's with risk factors. Both of them were the kind of people who injected politics into everything. Both of them caught COVID and died. What morons.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Nope. You didn't say the "for him" part. You made a more general, and wrong, statement. If you want to modify it and add "for him" fine. If he had allergic reactions to previous doses, for example, he may well be better off getting a different formula.


Absolutely.

I’ve re-read my post I can see it wasn’t explicitly clear that I was referring to him alone in my statement. That said it also wasn’t clear that it was broad in scope. I think the proper word would be vague.

Now that we have clarified my intent my post was accurate in its original context. He decided to stop taking boosters because the risk was more than the benefit.

To be honest I was correct when I said you’re looking for an argument. Your bias led you to assume the “for everyone” in my unintentionally vague post. Without that bias you would most likely not have been insulting and condescending in your responses to me. Although I would have expected you to challenge my statement and ask for clarification because it was vague.

Regardless there is no need for you to insult people and be a prick because someone disagrees with you. Based off of your post history my general opinion is you are an intelligent and most likely well educated person but when you resort to insults and condescending language it makes it easy to dismiss your contribution.

But. That’s how it goes. I’ve done it on here myself. So please don’t take this as an insult. I’m just letting you know how it comes across.