Using Foreflight as a Student Pilot

[TCABM]

New-ish CFI here, but after about 500 hrs of dual given I find the iPad to be a HUGE distraction.. at least for people who are pre-solo. Keep your head out the window, learn the local landmarks, all that jazz. I had a few people show up early on with shiny new iPad and Foreflight they got as a gift and it's not appropriate that early in the game.

However, at least in my case we worked in Foreflight during the cross country planning phase, doing all the paper work first, then, mapping it out on Foreflight to see how well (or not!) the numbers matched. For at least my students having them see how the sausage is made was a big benefit to them.

Observational question: do you, as a CFI, use an EFB frequently while in the cockpit with a student?

If so, I wonder if there may be some transference without context occurring. For example, a student seeing your use of it equates to them just accepting the EFB must be useful, despite no real instruction from the CFI on why and how you’re using it.

 

[morleyz]

You will need to know both ways to flight plan and navigate. There is always a chance the examiner will fail your ForeFlight on your checkride. I had one applicant fail when he presented a cross-country flight plan on ForeFlight, and the examiner said you are only showing me you can put numbers into a computer, and I am required to evaluate your ability to plan a flight, not use a computer.

This to me is BS from the DPE. I'm totally in agreement with needing to know how to fly and navigate without your iPad and failing it on a checkride is fine, but for flight planning, computers are the tools everyone uses. I mean, I'm sure there's someone here that says they unfold their paper charts and get out their EFB and plotter the night before a flight, but that's just not realistic. The DPE can go ahead and grill them on the flight plan from Foreflight, but an automatic failure because the student used the vastly superior planning tool should be a ding on the DPE.

 

[Salty]

This to me is BS from the DPE. I'm totally in agreement with needing to know how to fly and navigate without your iPad and failing it on a checkride is fine, but for flight planning, computers are the tools everyone uses. I mean, I'm sure there's someone here that says they unfold their paper charts and get out their EFB and plotter the night before a flight, but that's just not realistic. The DPE can go ahead and grill them on the flight plan from Foreflight, but an automatic failure because the student used the vastly superior planning tool should be a ding on the DPE.

Nope. It's required knowledge for the check ride. You can't use your iPad for the written. You have to understand and be capable of doing it manually to pass the test. Being able to manually do a flight plan encompasses so many important pieces of knowledge, omitting it would be a huge gap in your understanding.

 

[morleyz]

Nope. It's required knowledge for the check ride. You can't use your iPad for the written. You have to understand and be capable of doing it manually to pass the test. Being able to manually do a flight plan encompasses so many important pieces of knowledge, omitting it would be a huge gap in your understanding.

Really, can you point me to the spot in the ACS where it says you fail for using an iPad to do your flight plan?

 

[midlifeflyer]

New-ish CFI here, but after about 500 hrs of dual given I find the iPad to be a HUGE distraction.. at least for people who are pre-solo. Keep your head out the window, learn the local landmarks, all that jazz. I had a few people show up early on with shiny new iPad and Foreflight they got as a gift and it's not appropriate that early in the game.

I think it's purely an instructional issue. Pre-solo, it should be mostly unnecessary. In the pre-EFB days, charts weren't necessary pre-solo so why should an EFB? But if it's used, what a great way to begin to teach avoiding distraction by pointing out how little they need it going to and from the practice area or doing pattern work.

For cross countries, I actually like them. Yes, absolutely do things like turning off location services from time to time so they learn pilotage. But, with location services and ownship, it can also be a great aid to learning pilotage. I kind of came across that on a personal VFR flight. There's a big difference between pointing at a ground reference and thinking, "that looks like it might be the one shown here on the chart," and knowing, "so that's what it looks like on the chart."

 

[TCABM]

Really, can you point me to the spot in the ACS where it says you fail for using an iPad to do your flight plan?

The context of @Salty’s post is the written exam/knowledge test, as indicated in the post. The first page of the AC below provides additional information on the use of test aids.

AC 60-11C - Test Aids and Materials that may be used by Airman Knowledge Testing Applicants https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22623

 

[morleyz]

Nope. It's required knowledge for the check ride.

The context of @Salty’s post is the written exam/knowledge test, as indicated in the post. The first page of the AC below provides additional information on the use of test aids.

AC 60-11C - Test Aids and Materials that may be used by Airman Knowledge Testing Applicants https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22623

I mean, that's not what he said. If that's what he meant fine, but he clearly said check ride (which is also only relevant about a DPE failing a student for using an iPad).

 

[TCABM]

I mean, that's not what he said. If that's what he meant fine, but he clearly said check ride (which is also only relevant about a DPE failing a student for using an iPad).

Eh, the written is part of the check ride. Can’t do the check without a successful written being completed and any knowledge areas missed on the written must be covered on the practical.

 

[morleyz]

Eh, the written is part of the check ride. Can’t do the check without a successful written being completed and any knowledge areas missed on the written must be covered on the practical.

The DPE doesn't sit there and watch you take the written exam. This was specifically about a DPE failing a student on a check ride because they did their flight planning on an iPad. Why is that so confusing? If the DPE, during a check ride oral (which I'm assuming is where this story happened), failed the student for using an iPad for the flight plan, they are not following ACS standards. There is nothing in the ACS that bans using electronic flight planning. Salty seemed to disagree with that.

 

[Salty]

The DPE doesn't sit there and watch you take the written exam. This was specifically about a DPE failing a student on a check ride because they did their flight planning on an iPad. Why is that so confusing? If the DPE, during a check ride oral (which I'm assuming is where this story happened), failed the student for using an iPad for the flight plan, they are not following ACS standards. There is nothing in the ACS that bans using electronic flight planning. Salty seemed to disagree with that.

If you cannot explain and demonstrate how to do a flight plan without an ipad, you clearly do not know the subject which is required knowledge. Anything on the written is fair game again during the oral.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There is nothing in the ACS that bans using electronic flight planning. Salty seemed to disagree with that.

I didn't get that from Salty's comment at all.

I do think a DPE failing a student because they did the plan on an EFB in recent years is out of line. But asking questions to establish the applicant knows how to do one manually or explain the principles behind the calculations going on behind the scenes is fair game. Both are pretty easy to do during the oral.

 

[morleyz]

I didn't get that from Salty's comment at all.

I do think a DPE failing a student because they did the plan on an EFB in recent years is out of line. But asking questions to establish the applicant knows how to do one manually or explain the principles behind the calculations going on behind the scenes is fair game. Both are pretty easy to do during the oral.

That's exactly what I said. Maybe I misunderstood Salty's comment originally, but the DPE should not be failing anyone simply for using an iPad to do flight planning. If they can't answer questions about the plan or do any of the manual calculations (which by the way, they likely demonstrated on their written anyway), then fine, fail the student.

 

[Salty]

It has nothing to do with using an iPad. It only has to do with the inability to perform the function without the iPad.

 

[morleyz]

It has nothing to do with using an iPad. It only has to do with the inability to perform the function without the iPad.

Just because I use an iPad to do flight planning does not mean I cannot perform that function without one.

 

[Salty]

Just because I use an iPad to do flight planning does not mean I cannot perform that function without one.

Then you should have no issue.

 

[midlifeflyer]

(which by the way, they likely demonstrated on their written anyway),

Maybe. I hesitate equating the knowledge test with anything other than being a gatekeeper. There's a difference between answering multiple guess questions you studied for by studying as many of the questions and answers as you can in advance and a real flight planning exercise explaining what you did to a live examiner who can probe.

 

[TCABM]

Maybe. I hesitate equating the knowledge test with anything other than being a gatekeeper. There's a difference between answering multiple guess questions you studied for by studying as many of the questions and answers as you can in advance and a real flight planning exercise explaining what you did to a live examiner who can probe.

You planned this last night, right? Are the winds aloft as forecast? How do the current conditions impact your plan?

 

[rhkennerly]

Having said all that, I really like her approach:

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

The DPE can go ahead and grill them on the flight plan from Foreflight, but an automatic failure because the student used the vastly superior planning tool should be a ding on the DPE.

We were surprised that this was an issue. The applicant did then do a handwritten flight log using the chart, plotter and E6B, but he was so shaken by the criticism that he failed the flight portion of the checkride.

We did not use that DPE again after that one.

 

[LAWYER2]

Having said all that, I really like her approach:

Ya, I came across that video and she made some excellent points.

I told my CFI, this reminds me of when I was in law school and they taught us how to look up caselaw manually in the case books. Though I learned how, I've never looked up a case in a physical book throughout my entire career. Everything is online through LexisNexis and Westlaw lol.

 

[Salty]

Ya, I came across that video and she made some excellent points.

I told my CFI, this reminds me of when I was in law school and they taught us how to look up caselaw manually in the case books. Though I learned how, I've never looked up a case in a physical book throughout my entire career. Everything is online through LexisNexis and Westlaw lol.

Not the same thing at all. Flight planning has concepts in it that are useful to understand for every day flying. It's not the mundane steps that matter. It's why you have to do the steps and how that applies to flying that matters.

 

[k9medic]

You will need to know both ways to flight plan and navigate. There is always a chance the examiner will fail your ForeFlight on your checkride. I had one applicant fail when he presented a cross-country flight plan on ForeFlight, and the examiner said you are only showing me you can put numbers into a computer, and I am required to evaluate your ability to plan a flight, not use a computer.

Not sure when this checkride was but the DPE was wrong. Very wrong.

Having said that, my 19 year old son is learning to fly. He has been using Foreflight but I have also been sitting down with him to go over nav logs and charts.

I fly for a living and the last time I used a sectional was about 15 years ago to keep the sun from blinding me.

 

[rhkennerly]

Not sure when this checkride was but the DPE was wrong. Very wrong.

Having said that, my 19 year old son is learning to fly. He has been using Foreflight but I have also been sitting down with him to go over nav logs and charts.

I fly for a living and the last time I used a sectional was about 15 years ago to keep the sun from blinding me.

Try that video above. Kinda the best of both worlds.

 

[k9medic]

Try that video above. Kinda the best of both worlds.

It looks to be a good video from what I have watched so far.

I am am the EFB administrator (A061) for my organization and it's a heck of a time teaching "old dogs new tricks..." My kid assimilates pretty quickly but it took a a few moments to get the plotter on a paper chart.

 

[rhkennerly]

It looks to be a good video from what I have watched so far.

I am am the EFB administrator (A061) for my organization and it's a heck of a time teaching "old dogs new tricks..." My kid assimilates pretty quickly but it took a a few moments to get the plotter on a paper chart.

Ha! Wait until he gets to the E6B.

 

[dmspilot]

Student pilot here. My instructor recommended the opposite of yours - that I start learning foreflight as soon as possible. My instructor is 24 years old. I wonder if age has something to do with it. Just getting in to learning the manual stuff. Don't see knowing FF as a disadvantage but we'll see.

Of course, because it makes his job easier while he waits for an airline to call. And every lesson spent doing ground school on charts, preflight planning, etc. is a wasted opportunity for getting flight time. This may sound cynical but it is more common than not.

 

[StraightnLevel]

...every lesson spent doing ground school on charts, preflight planning, etc. is a wasted opportunity for getting flight time. This may sound cynical but it is more common than not.

OT: DOH!!! OK, now I get it. I wondered why my instructor doesn't seem to be bothered by me using an on-line ground school....thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious.

 

[dmspilot]

OT: DOH!!! OK, now I get it. I wondered why my instructor doesn't seem to be bothered by me using an on-line ground school....thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious.

To be fair, there's not anything wrong with separate or online groundschool. It's not a problem unless it's used as an excuse to avoid 1-to-1 instruction.

It is telling that someone who sells books and online groundschool courses has written essays on how flight instructors don't do enough ground instruction:

 

[Ventucky Red]

It was once said to me... you can use your calculator, but you'll still need to show your work.

I don't think an iPad would have been good to have in my first few hours of flying... besides they didn't exist. Personly, pass your check ride, then get Forflight.. impress the DPE on the use of paper charts and pilotage the old skul way

 

[OneCharlieTango]

ForeFlight is easy. If you’re under 40 and you already know how to plan a flight, you’ll be able to pick it up in less time and less mess than it takes to eat a chili dog.

So much of flying is about having stories to tell. If you train on paper exclusively, you’ll forever be cooler than your peers, and that’s not nothing!

 

[unsafervguy]

You definitely should learn preflight planning doing the math yourself. It's going to be required for the written anyhow.

Years ago when my wife was getting her private, her instructor told her no GPS (we had an early Garmin 195). She didn't use it. However, the plane she was flying had an old Cessna VOR-DME RNAV system in it. That was in the day with the little brown airport guide and they put VOR-DME coordinates in for all the airports. I showed her how to enter this into the RNAV system. She did it with the instructor on board once. He changed his edit to no area navigation of any kind.

short sighted and un-informed instructor. good for you showing her how to use it. if its installed in the airplane its fair game for a DPE to ask to demonstrate its use. thats one of the reasons you see a lot of ADF's that are still installed marked INOP.

 

[unsafervguy]

Not the same thing at all. Flight planning has concepts in it that are useful to understand for every day flying. It's not the mundane steps that matter. It's why you have to do the steps and how that applies to flying that matters.

this is it big point. WHY are you correcting for something and how and why is the software doing it, is what needs to be learned. the principals of flight seem to be getting lost in the new technology of flight training and the dumbing down of the fundamentals the FAA is going to. thats one of the reasons i taught ADF approaches first back in the day. it forced students to increase their situational awareness.