Reselling N-Numbers as a Business

PaulS said:
Ah, your opinion. Once again you are being pedantic. I gave an example of how to deal with someone who wasn't using a kit company, so I covered that. Experimental builders are probably just a small percentage of people affected by this problem. Let's hear your great idea.
Click to expand...
My great idea is to have someone figure out how to get the Faa to give a crap. No other ideas really matter.
 
Skip said:
I inquired about a short number. Dickweed replied from Short N Numbers. $9500....
Click to expand...
Would you have paid him $95 for it? Just trying to figure what the tangible value for any N-number.
 
PaulS said:
This isn't tough to figure out.
Click to expand...
It's not tough if you don't consider the administrative burden of checking all your criteria for everyone that wants a vanity tag. Some people build from plans, some build their own designs. Some companies reserve when contracts are signed. How does one easily, quickly, and cheaply verify that these qualify for n-number reservations? Who's going to bear the cost of the additional administrative burden? The reality of it is that if a plan is implemented so curb squatters it will also exclude some legitimate users in the process, it will increase cost and inefficiency, and some squatters will likely find a way around it.

Nauga,
all for a vanity tag
 
Simple solution: Require an aircraft make, model, and serial number to reserve an N-number. The aircraft doesn't have to exist yet, but the number cannot be reassigned to a different aircraft for 7 years from the date the number is reserved unless the original aircraft receives an airworthiness certificate which is subsequently surrendered.
 
nauga said:
It's not tough if you don't consider the administrative burden of checking all your criteria for everyone that wants a vanity tag. Some people build from plans, some build their own designs. Some companies reserve when contracts are signed. How does one easily, quickly, and cheaply verify that these qualify for n-number reservations? Who's going to bear the cost of the additional administrative burden? The reality of it is that if a plan is implemented so curb squatters it will also exclude some legitimate users in the process, it will increase cost and inefficiency, and some squatters will likely find a way around it.

Nauga,
all for a vanity tag
Click to expand...
As I said, I wouldn't bother, I'd take the next reasonable sequential number. What I'm proposing isn't much different from what's done now to transfer a registration. That's an interesting experience, but the people who do it seem very helpful.

I guess the simplest thing to do is just let aircraft owners bend over and continue to get reamed by the parasites if they want a vanity number. That's what I'm hearing, everything else is too hard, or we should wait for the FAA overlords to finally address it.

Not sure who would be excluded, but there are outliers now for whatever reason, they just have to do some extra work, still better than paying a parasite $9,500 or whatever the going price is right now.
 
That situation is in the House version of the FAA ReAuth Bill to prevent from happening.
 
Dana said:
Simple solution: Require an aircraft make, model, and serial number to reserve an N-number. The aircraft doesn't have to exist yet, but the number cannot be reassigned to a different aircraft for 7 years from the date the number is reserved unless the original aircraft receives an airworthiness certificate which is subsequently surrendered.
Click to expand...
You don't even need a serial number to foil the speculators.
 
PaulS said:
Not sure who would be excluded, but there are outliers now for whatever reason, they just have to do some extra work, still better than paying a parasite $9,500 or whatever the going price is right now.
Click to expand...
Simply not participating in the number selection completely sidesteps the issue and that process continues to function, argumentum ad absurdum notwithstanding. The airplane flies no different with/without a vanity number.

Nauga,
in the paint
 
I assume that for some, flying just isn't flying unless their plane matches the monogrammed towels and robe.
 
RyanShort1 said:
But let’s be real, most of this angst is because you want a vanity registration, right?

It’s a luxury, not a necessity.
Click to expand...
My angst is that the value of a public resource is being captured by a private entity rather than the public. If certain N numbers are more valuable than others, the FAA should charge more for them. Otherwise the taxpayers are just putting money in private pockets.
 
nauga said:
Simply not participating in the number selection completely sidesteps the issue and that process continues to function, argumentum ad absurdum notwithstanding. The airplane flies no different with/without a vanity number.

Nauga,
in the paint
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not sidestepping the issues really, I just made it clear that I have no desire for vanity number. What I keep hearing is that it is too hard to fix, the faa will fix it, it will make the process more difficult, or some fringe builders, who will need to jump through hoops anyway for a registration, may need to jump through an extra hoop or two to prove they aren't just flipping numbers. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. I think it can be easily fixed. Easy for everyone? Probably not, but easy for the majority. Then the problem will become the run on freshly available numbers.
 
Lindberg said:
My angst is that the value of a public resource is being captured by a private entity rather than the public. If certain N numbers are more valuable than others, the FAA should charge more for them. Otherwise the taxpayers are just putting money in private pockets.
Click to expand...

What’s the value though and who determines it?
 
Lindberg said:
My angst is that the value of a public resource is being captured by a private entity rather than the public. If certain N numbers are more valuable than others, the FAA should charge more for them. Otherwise the taxpayers are just putting money in private pockets.
Click to expand...
I share your concern. Another concern I have is that in the rush to plug this hole some legitimate users of the reservation system will get screwed. I'm not just referring to the one-off folks with homebuilts and single-ship sales, I'm talking about fleet users like small* manufacturers and testers, 135 cert holders, R&D companies/agencies, and so on. The average user and those with their shorts in a wad in situations like this tend to be a little myopic IME.

My angsts are in conflict with each other and I'm never sure which will come out on top on any given day.

Nauga,
who means *small enough to not have lobbyists
 
Lindberg said:
My angst is that the value of a public resource is being captured by a private entity rather than the public. If certain N numbers are more valuable than others, the FAA should charge more for them. Otherwise the taxpayers are just putting money in private pockets.
Click to expand...
Do you also believe in eminent domain and that the government has to level the playing field with other kinds of properties? You are talking about a slippery slope.
 
PaulS said:
Well, I'm not sidestepping the issues really, I just made it clear that I have no desire for vanity number....I think it can be easily fixed. Easy for everyone? Probably not...
Click to expand...
As with many issues, the side one chooses often comes down to whose ox is being gored. I think it can be *changed*. I don't think it will be *fixed* and I don't think it will be easy.

PaulS said:
...but easy for the majority
Click to expand...
Majority of what? Airplane owners? I doubt the majority give a rat's about it. People who want numbers they can't get? Absolutely, probably close to 100% People with standing reservations for airplanes in development? Probably close to 0%. So whom do you coddle, and whom do you screw to make the coddled happy?

Nauga,
focused
 
This is a pedantic issue in the big picture… but the underlying principles you argue from do reveal what you believe about government’s roles. Argue from first principle instead of emotion.
 
nauga said:
I share your concern. Another concern I have is that in the rush to plug this hole some legitimate users of the reservation system will get screwed. I'm not just referring to the one-off folks with homebuilts and single-ship sales, I'm talking about fleet users like small* manufacturers and testers, 135 cert holders, R&D companies/agencies, and so on. The average user and those with their shorts in a wad in situations like this tend to be a little myopic IME.

My angsts are in conflict with each other and I'm never sure which will come out on top on any given day.

Na
who means *small enough to not have lobbyists
Click to expand...


Meh, leave it alone then.

My experience is that people and companies can and will take care of themselves. They will figure it out, just as they do now. What is going on is the deck is stacked against those who want these numbers because of individuals gaming the system. The need to be perfect is paralyzing for some unfortunately.

Maybe the answer is to designate certain numbers as vanity numbers, don't allow transfers unless an owner wants to assign it to another aircraft he owns or is buying. Otherwise the number goes with the airplane, numbers not assigned to a particular airplane can't be sold. Selling just a vanity number is not allowed. Run of the mill numbers, leave it the way it is.

Right now it's a wealthy man's game, you want a vanity number, you pay the price.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Do you also believe in eminent domain and that the government has to level the playing field with other kinds of properties? You are talking about a slippery slope.
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with eminent domain?
 
Easy. Just require a $1000 fee to reserve an N-number, unless you have a plane to put it on immediately (ie giving up an existing number). Allow homebuilders to be refunded the $1000 if the actually register a plane (with AW certificate) in a certain time.

The problem comes about as it only costs $10 to reserve the number, but some can be sold for tens of thousands. Pretty good ROI.
 
I’d love to see an allocation report if reserved N-numbers vs demand for reserved n-numbers.

For ex, Company C has y number of N-numbers reserved, z many have been transferred to an AWC, etc. Then, N12345 has been requested by b many unique users c many times over d many periods.

That may be able to quantify the scale of the perceived problem.

The alternative could be to auction off reservable n-numbers. Must be present to win.
 
I did not read the whole thread. But it is an interesting problem. If you think there is a real issue here, there are two solutions which the FAA could implement. One technical, one regulatory.
Technical first. Implement captcha when trying to register a number. This will effectively stop the bots.
Regulatory, make N-Numbers non-transferable unless they are/were attached to a register aircraft. e.g. For me to sell an n-number it has to be on my plane.

Tim
 
tspear said:
I did not read the whole thread. But it is an interesting problem. If you think there is a real issue here, there are two solutions which the FAA could implement. One technical, one regulatory.
Technical first. Implement captcha when trying to register a number. This will effectively stop the bots.
Regulatory, make N-Numbers non-transferable unless they are/were attached to a register aircraft. e.g. For me to sell an n-number it has to be on my plane.

Tim
Click to expand...

The reservation system uses captcha on multiple pages. Don’t no how long they’ve done that, but for grins I spent $10 and reserved an N-number ending in TJ earlier this week.
d2a790ab2befcb9f7a2c24e7d06b3b71.jpg
 
@TCABM

That is new in the last couple years. And the Captcha system they picked. ugh. It is very out of date and fairly easy to beat.

Just occurred to me, is there a published API or upload or bulk purchase option designed for corporate types? They might be going in that way, since I doubt Cessna, Cirrus or others have an admin doing the reservation manually. If that is true, then the FAA needs to make that interface only available to those who actually have manufactured a plane...

Tim
 
I'm just going to say it: vanity N-numbers are lame.

You earned a pilots license. You own your own freaking plane. Still concerned people aren't impressed? You feel the need to paint your initials on both sides 12" high? I don't get it. Someone please explain.
 
camorton said:
I'm just going to say it: vanity N-numbers are lame.

You earned a pilots license. You own your own freaking plane. Still concerned people aren't impressed? You feel the need to paint your initials on both sides 12" high? I don't get it. Someone please explain.
Click to expand...
I would pay 10 bucks just to prevent having a number that’s harder to say. Or possibly duplicate my grandfather’s racing boat number or something. It’s not about impressing people i don’t know. Not that i own a plane anyway.
 
What old97 said. I’ve never owned a vanity plate, but considering the tail number is something you end up burned into your memory, that I would like to choose.
 
Yeah, it's not really about "vanity." Often it's something that's significant to the owner and no one else, like the year you were married or a child's initials or something. Hams can get vanity call signs, and I've considered switching to my late father's call, but I've been AJ4CM for so long now it's like my own name.
 
I have a "vanity" compassion callsign. So sue me. I also have a reserved N number.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top