This flying seems awfully expensive...

[charheep]

A good friend of mine owns a horse. She bought it for about 17k about 6 years ago. Spends a solid 1k per month for barn and feed and lessons, etc. I dont know how much the shoe guy is, or medical insurance is. She doesnt make a ton of money, so I would guess she is all in at around 1400 a month.
She does spend about 2-4 hours every day with it. less during the week, more on the weekends.

 

[Half Fast]

I like horses. Is it too soon to start hitting on Mrs Bryan?

No. Too late.

 

[Dave Anderson]

Thank you for this advice.
My wife wants a horse.

Funny, my wife is considering a new husband because of my addiction!

 

[Dave Anderson]

A good friend of mine owns a horse. She bought it for about 17k about 6 years ago. Spends a solid 1k per month for barn and feed and lessons, etc. I dont know how much the shoe guy is, or medical insurance is. She doesnt make a ton of money, so I would guess she is all in at around 1400 a month.
She does spend about 2-4 hours every day with it. less during the week, more on the weekends.

I spend 6-8 hrs a week with my airplane. Maybe only 2-3 hrs flying it but it needs love too.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Q: How much does it cost to own an airplane?

A: All you got.


(Note the message number.)

 

[Ed Haywood]

Guess we have to add a 4th F to the "rent it" rule.

If it Flies, Floats, Flirts, or needs a Farrier ...

 

[Zeldman]

She bought it for about 17k about 6 years ago.

WOW.!!

I remember my dad buying a horse at auction for my sister back in 1965. I am pretty sure it was for less than 20 bucks.

 

[Jim K]

WOW.!!

I remember my dad buying a horse at auction for my sister back in 1965. I am pretty sure it was for less than 20 bucks.

That was my reaction, too. I though you could buy a horse for $2-3/lb, alive or otherwise. Maybe it's a "special" horse?

 

[Racerx]

My dog trainer breeds, trains, and sells Tennessee walking horses. No idea what that means but I know they ain't cheap. Uses them for dog trials.

Arizona and Colorado have a cool program that uses inmates to train wild horses and burros. Auction or adopt the horse and the money goes back into the program.

 

[RyanShort1]

Some planes are fun and relatively cheap... My Luscombe for example, only burns 4 gph, and doesn't have a lot of avionics or stuff to work on. It can do 100 mph and is fun.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Some planes are fun and relatively cheap... My Luscombe for example, only burns 4 gph, and doesn't have a lot of avionics or stuff to work on. It can do 100 mph and is fun.

And you do a whole lot more actual stick and rudder flying than most

 

[falconkidding]

Flying to me isn't worth the cost. Even assuming 5 hours a month a t hangar and a cheap 4 seater pretty much any other hobby smokes it in the value to dollar ratio. For what a cheap plane cost you could buy motorcyles, jetskis, and a boat, or take nice vacations or get a nice sports car.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Flying to me isn't worth the cost. Even assuming 5 hours a month a t hangar and a cheap 4 seater pretty much any other hobby smokes it in the value to dollar ratio. For what a cheap plane cost you could buy motorcyles, jetskis, and a boat, or take nice vacations or get a nice sports car.

But if those things bore you, then any cost is not worth it. Like saying "think of all the macrame you can do for the cost of a plane."

 

[Half Fast]

Some planes are fun and relatively cheap... My Luscombe for example, only burns 4 gph, and doesn't have a lot of avionics or stuff to work on. It can do 100 mph and is fun.

(Until, of course, you need to OH the engine...)

My Musketeer was relatively cheap (cost significantly less than our F150, and we bought the truck used) and so far has not been expensive to maintain. With a light fuel load and one person, she trues out a bit over 140mph; loaded with me, my wife, baggage, and full fuel, I see about 135 true. Easy to own, easy to fly, roomy, comfortable, perfectly fine for trips. Fun, and just what I wanted in a plane.

OTOH, I'm about to spend the cost of the plane all over again just to get it painted....

 

[Half Fast]

Flying to me isn't worth the cost. Even assuming 5 hours a month a t hangar and a cheap 4 seater pretty much any other hobby smokes it in the value to dollar ratio. For what a cheap plane cost you could buy motorcyles, jetskis, and a boat, or take nice vacations or get a nice sports car.

Value per dollar? HAH!

Try scuba. The last time I went down to Palm Beach for a 2-tank boat dive, I spent a little over $200 for an hour of bottom time. My plane costs less than that per hour to operate.

And you should try to add up what racing sports cars costs in dollars / hour. Fifteen years ago a typical race weekend cost me at least $2k if nothing got bent or broken (and something always did) and I got maybe a couple of hours of track time, usually less. $1k per hour, and I was racing in one of the least expensive classes.

Try talking to the guys who have offshore fishing boats.

Yes, flying is expensive, but it's not out of range of many other hobbies. Sure, you can find cheaper hobbies, and if you're happy knitting or quilting then have at it; you won't spend as much.

 

[Gary Ward]

The only horses I have ever been interested in was under the hood, between the frame rails or under the cowl. The rest just stink and are way too expensive. lol
My wife was a race horse trainer but she did not own the horses or pay the bills.

Don't know how old the OP is?
When I was younger it was all work and no play until I got a little older.

I dragged raced with sponsors with up to 6 other team mates/crew members for 10 years when I got a little older. That was expensive, like $5000+ per 5.5 second blast. I got to be in the car for maybe 5 minutes drive it for 5.5 seconds under power and bam 5000 is burnt up and 7 of us had a ton of work to do before the next run. That is if nothing broke. My crew members always said they can't wait till Monday morning when they could go back to their reg jobs because the weekends were full of hard work. But there was plenty of rewards when we ran good.

Racing was 24/7 7 days a week 9 months out of the year. It wore out your wallet and back.

Flying is so much less stress and work. I actually like to work on my plane because it is so simple and inexpensive to maintain compared to many other things in life. Hangar = happy place for me. That alone is worth the money spent on aviation to me.
The money? Like many others here I live in a small house that is paid for and drive a 10 year old company truck. Have no debt and paid cash for my plane 6+ years ago when 172s were 35K.
My wife's car cost more than my plane.
This is the kind of horse power that spins my wheels/props. I went from a 275 mph car to a 120 mph airplane and the plane get's my attention so much more.

Red car is mine.

I have to post this picture, the early days for me, when Winston was involved in the good old days. 0-100 mph in 1.1 seconds.

 

[Half Fast]

The only horses I have ever been interested in was under the hood, between the frame rails or under the cowl. The rest just stink and are way too expensive. lol
My wife was a race horse trainer but she did not own the horses or pay the bills.

Don't know how old the OP is?
When I was younger it was all work and no play until I got a little older.

I dragged raced with sponsors with 6 other team mates/crew members for over 10 years when I got a little older. That was expensive, like $5000+ per 5.5 second blast. I got to be in the car for maybe 5 minutes drive it for 5.5 seconds under power and bam 5000 is burnt up and 7 of us had a ton of work to do before the next run. My crew members always said they can't wait till Monday morning when they could go back to their reg jobs because the weekends were full of hard work. But there was plenty of rewards when we ran good.

Racing was 24/7 7 days a week 9 months out of the year. It wore out your wallet and back.

Flying is so much less stress and work. I actually like to work on my plane because it is so simple and inexpensive to maintain compared to many other things in life. Hangar = happy place for me. That alone is worth the money spent on aviation to me.
The money? Like many others here I live in a small house that is paid for for a long time and drive a 10 year old company truck with the fuel paid for. Have no debt and paid cash for my plane 6+ years ago when 172s were 35K.
My wife's car cost more than my plane.
This is the kind of horse power that spins my wheels/props. I went from a 275 mph car to a 120 mph airplane and the plane get's my attention so much more.

Red car is mine.

I have to post this picture, the early days for me, when Winston was involved in the good old days. 0-100 mph in 1.1 seconds.

 

[hindsight2020]

Flying to me isn't worth the cost. Even assuming 5 hours a month a t hangar and a cheap 4 seater pretty much any other hobby smokes it in the value to dollar ratio. For what a cheap plane cost you could buy motorcyles, jetskis, and a boat, or take nice vacations or get a nice sports car.

Not an uncommon quip among professional pilots. Most of my peers are in fact not aircraft owners, for pretty much the exact reasoning you state.

The only retort I offer to that, and I only offer it as devil's advocacy just for the sake of continuing the conversation, is to consider the degree to which that sentiment is couched in the privilege of having an employer sponsor your flying in the first place. (...to the degree one can call hovering over an FMS for a living "flying" anyways, but that's neither here nor there).

I generally share your sentiment, but mine has the caveat that all "flying" to me, is just not the same quantity. As such, the value/cost proposition becomes a sliding scale, not a binary. I recently took my ball and went home from the hobby, but I did it on the back of my work airplane still knocking my socks off. Which is to admit that if the latter were not available to me, I'd probably be exercising less price elasticity than currently, for the sake of the specific type of flying I do find worth pursuing. There are airplanes and so-called flying I'd never get out of bed for; to omit that nuance would be a misrepresentation of my value-judgement of both the hobby, and my willingness/capacity to spend money gratuitously on recreation/catharsis.

 

[camorton]

"A benefit of aging is the triumph of romance over practicality."

Wait, I thought it was the other way around...

 

[Half Fast]

"A benefit of aging is the triumph of romance over practicality."

Wait, I thought it was the other way around...

A benefit of practicality is the triumph of romance over aging?

 

[Ed Haywood]

"A benefit of aging is the triumph of romance over practicality."

Wait, I thought it was the other way around...

It was til the blue pill ...

 

[Bob Noel]

It was til the blue pill ...

wait, I thought the blue pill would end the story...

 

[idahoflier]

Monthly expenses
Storage: $300
Insurance $300
Fish Finder $30
Garmin ???
Fuel $50/hr
Plus more for annuals.

We've had a major life event and have been questioning priorities. I'm wondering if this flying thing and plane ownership ought to be passed on to someone else. For the past couple days I've been ready to sell, will likely wait for a year. But just how do people justify this recreational flying?

I belonged to a flying club for my first 25 years of flying. Most of my flying was going out one or two times a month and flying the PP PTS. I had occasional trips and when a new aircraft type would come into the club I would get checked out in it. Over the years I added an IR and upgraded to CP. I always thought about owning an aircraft, but every time I ran the numbers I could never make it work out to be cheaper than staying in the club. I was lucky that I had the club option.

Aviation has been the most important hobby to me that I have had over the last 32 years but it has always taken a backseat in most financial decisions when it comes to family finances. Even though the "numbers" still didn't work out, for a few reasons, I took the plunge and became an aircraft owner 7 years ago. Sure, it's a bit more expensive than club membership, but I haven't looked back since and haven't regretted it. I spent years working and planning to put myself in a position for aircraft ownership. The family nest egg is large enough that my aviation activities don't affect it at this point.

To summarize and add TLDR; Life is short, if you find joy in aircraft ownership and have the financial means, why not, what else are you going to spend $ on?

 

[hindsight2020]

why not, what else are you going to spend $ on?

In the words of the street Sage

 

[TCABM]

Not an uncommon quip among professional pilots..

When an airframe is the office, why work for recreation?

 

[Velocity173]

“What else are you going to spend $ on?” That’s what really keeps me in the game. Anytime I get ticked about operating costs, I ask myself that question. If I’m not living in poverty, I can pay my bills and afford other toys then why not?

I think with some of the accidents (Mcspadden / Snodgrass) in recent years I’ve wondered about if the risk vs reward is worth it. I think I’m also at the point where I see enough of the world from above in my day job, I really don’t need to see it in my spare time. For now, I still enjoy the $100 hamburger cross country trips but I’m not sure how long I’ll keep rolling the dice.

 

[StraightnLevel]

And you should try to add up what racing sports cars costs in dollars / hour. Fifteen years ago a typical race weekend cost me at least $2k if nothing got bent or broken (and something always did) and I got maybe a couple of hours of track time, usually less. $1k per hour, and I was racing in one of the least expensive classes.
\

FE was about $3500-$5K /weekend in consumables and direct costs. That was after purchasing the car, trailer, motorhome, safety gear, etc.

Anything that is intended to regularly go faster than 150 MPH is going to cost you, and from there up it basically doubles every 10 MPH.

 

[hindsight2020]

Anything that is intended to regularly go faster than 150 MPH is going to cost you, and from there up it basically doubles every 10 MPH.

indeed. It is a rather crappy marginal utility cost curve. Slow does hold a value advantage in that regard, especially if that cost delta makes the difference between being able to participate or not at all. There goes my Mig-21 "mission" lol.

 

[kayoh190]

indeed. It is a rather crappy marginal utility cost curve. Slow does hold a value advantage in that regard, especially if that cost delta makes the difference between being able to participate or not at all. There goes my Mig-21 "mission" lol.

Also thinking about your earlier post, this is part of the reason why owning an airplane - if it ever happens for me - will be a purely recreational decision. All family members of both myself and my wife are well connected by airline routes, so that makes the decision a little easier too. Work scratches any "IFR from Point A to B" itch I might have (if any), so my dreams these days tend to be limited to something like a Decathlon or RV.

But man, while waiting to get out of the city before pulling the trigger, I'm just been watching the pricing climb and climb and climb. And as I read more and more threads from owners here on PoA (including your situation), there's a very real possibility that I choose to just remain on the sidelines. Maybe join a club instead (as I do now) and call it good.

 

[Velocity173]

indeed. It is a rather crappy marginal utility cost curve. Slow does hold a value advantage in that regard, especially if that cost delta makes the difference between being able to participate or not at all. There goes my Mig-21 "mission" lol.

That mission isn’t all that expensive. So it’ll take a few $$$ to get it airworthy. You can afford it.

1960 Mikoyan Guerevich MiG-21 | Platinum Fighter Sales

Platinum Fighter Sales specializes in the sale of quality, historic, vintage and warbird aircraft. View the 1960 Mikoyan Guerevich MiG-21 here.

www.platinumfighters.com

 

[kaiser]

That was my reaction, too. I though you could buy a horse for $2-3/lb, alive or otherwise. Maybe it's a "special" horse?

You don't eat 'em!

A good friend of mine owns a horse. She bought it for about 17k about 6 years ago. Spends a solid 1k per month for barn and feed and lessons, etc. I dont know how much the shoe guy is, or medical insurance is. She doesnt make a ton of money, so I would guess she is all in at around 1400 a month.
She does spend about 2-4 hours every day with it. less during the week, more on the weekends.

My sister boards horses at her place in N Kansas. I don't remember her exact pricing model but it's subscription based.. and definitely makes hangars in Chicago look pretty cheap. She's ex-dressage champion etc so that’s her market as well.

WRT cost… I’m on my first airliner economy trip since losing all of my status and I hate it hate it hate it. I’m not even at the plane yet! Just at dinner in the terminal. For me, I’d rather spend 3x the money, go 1/3 the speed in a clapped out piston pounder. If I ever lose my medical, it’s 1st class or jet card here on out.

 

[Half Fast]

I’m on my first airliner economy trip since losing all of my status and I hate it hate it hate it. I’m not even at the plane yet! Just at dinner in the terminal. For me, I’d rather spend 3x the money, go 1/3 the speed in a clapped out piston pounder.

 

[Jim K]

You don't eat 'em!

Maybe you dont

 

[dbahn]

I've owned all or part of a C206 (now all of it) for just under 40 years. It was worth about $35k when I started flying it and about $200k now. A brand new one is about $1 million now. I've flown all over the country, often with a motorcycle in the back, and my wife and I have taken several trips with it, tenting or even sleeping in the plane. That include two trips from Vermont to Alaska - the first trip was probably the highlight of my life. Other trips to places like Nova Scotia and the Bahamas were also fantastic. Almost a dozen partners over the years have helped share costs, and as I look back with fond memories I have absolutely zero regrets about the ownership.

In fact, I have NO IDEA what I spent for everything.

 

[Pinecone]

io. For what a cheap plane cost you could buy motorcyles, jetskis, and a boat, or take nice vacations or get a nice sports car.

Have you ever owned a boat? Unless it is a very small boat, it will cost near aviation money.

A NICE sports car will cost you more than a nice plane.

 

[brcase]

Sure, you can find cheaper hobbies, and if you're happy knitting or quilting then have at it; you won't spend as much.

You should visit a quilting store, or the price of a quilting machine. They are as bad as cars, and serious quilters want to upgrade to the latest machine every few years. When my banker friend retired (early) , his wife asking what he was going to do, he said mostly stay home when not flying.
She said fine and went into a partnership in a quilting store. My friend says if he had known how much money she was going to make doing that, he would have retired 10 years sooner.

Brian

 

[texasclouds]

I added it up once and my response was "How the hell am I affording to do this?" If you add it all up, you quickly realize you are in the grey area between hobby and addiction.

I can quit any time I want…

 

[Ed Haywood]

I recently restored my Decathlon. When I hit my budget limit, I stopped counting.

 

[FormerHangie]

Have you ever owned a boat? Unless it is a very small boat, it will cost near aviation money.

A NICE sports car will cost you more than a nice plane.

Nah. We own a 21 foot bowrider. It's kept in a dry stack marina, which is the most expensive way you can keep a boat like this, $4400 a year. Fuel is about $600, insurance $250, maintenance $500 because we have the marina do it, taxes $300. Depreciation is surprisingly low at around $1200. For that money, I could rent an ancient 172 or Archer for 35 hours a year and a renter's policy.

 

[TCABM]

You should visit a quilting store…

No kidding. One of my peers retired this month at 50 and bought a long arm quilter that dang near costs as much as our OH underway.