Am I being unreasonable?

[TCABM]

Google turned up nothing to suggest that thousands was legit. But rather than just say that the claim was nonsense, I considered the possibility that I didn't have the right search strings and maybe there really is a history that includes thousands of retractions but somehow evades the search terms I was using. So, I ask again, where can I read more about this claim?

Did you find this article with fairly current data?

Belly to Concrete - Aviation Safety

Gear mishaps are the plague of retracts - and the problem is even more severe than you probably suspect

www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

Another, with a limited dataset of about 27 months; note Gear Collapse is the subset where these types of incidents are categorized.

New Page 1

Notes from a FAAST presentation on the topic.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/83/779/FFP%20-%20Landing%20Gear%20Failure%20Course%20Text.pdf

I’ll admit none of this will prove or disprove your question on veracity as many of these mishaps aren’t subject to NTSB investigations and therefore won’t have causal and contributing factors statements.

 

[Lindberg]

Don't make taxi calls. Do watch cool airplanes. Do restart checklist if you lose your place. Don't touch the flap handle on the runway if you don't need to. Do have a sense of humor.

Can't comment on what happened in the air, other than to say from your description, it sounds like he should have handled the plane less.

From your description, and the fact that you came here to talk about it rather than with him, it seems like the two of you are not a good fit. Whether you're being unreasonable or not it doesn't really matter if you don't get along. Find someone whose style fits yours.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes, the lack of anyone publishing what would be a shockingly large amount of improper gear retracts suggests that it never happened. Where did you read about this?

If someone were to publish it, where would they get the data? Inadvertent gear retraction on the ground isn’t necessarily a reportable occurrence under NTSB 830.

It would be similar to saying engine failures are mostly fatal because there’s no data to say how many people survived engine failures.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Yes, the lack of anyone publishing what would be a shockingly large amount of improper gear retracts suggests that it never happened. Where did you read about this?

As I wrote:

I ask that rhetorically here, because these digressions from the thread's topic merit their own threads.

TCABM and MauleSkinner posted useful insights. If you start a thread on the subject, I will add additional perspective.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Why? That sounds like a major, albeit sadly common, training deficiency. Your profile says Wausau, WI. You based that far away from CWA thats it’s not a regular destination or even the subject of a repeated cross country solo endorsement? And ATW and GRB look like ideal choices for cross countries.

We do go to CWA quite often, but there is only one person on duty in the tower, so clearances and taxi instructions are on tower frequency. Not much to learn from that. To make it worse, CWA has one controller who will not allow more than one airplane in the pattern at a time. We are instructed to vacate the Class D if there's another flight inbound.

GRB and ATW as well as EAU and OSH are frequent cross-country destinations, but there is a significant added cost to those flights.

 

[172andyou]

If someone were to publish it, where would they get the data? Inadvertent gear retraction on the ground isn’t necessarily a reportable occurrence under NTSB 830.

Yeah, that's part of why I was wondering how one would come up with "THOUSANDS" and wanted to read more. Could have been, for example, data from insurance companies, but I didn't see anything like that either.

 

[Matthew]

I looked at the Nall Report, or whatever it’s called now.

2021 is the most recent year for detailed reports, 2022/2023 is still preliminary.

Non-commercial fixed wing, landing phase, gear related accidents = 22 in 2021.

I haven’t been able to find data for unintentional gear up in that report. I don’t think it includes “incidents”, just “accidents”.

 

[midlifeflyer]

We do go to CWA quite often, but there is only one person on duty in the tower, so clearances and taxi instructions are on tower frequency. Not much to learn from that. To make it worse, CWA has one controller who will not allow more than one airplane in the pattern at a time. We are instructed to vacate the Class D if there's another flight inbound.

GRB and ATW as well as EAU and OSH are frequent cross-country destinations, but there is a significant added cost to those flights.

To bad about the lazy controller. Thats the first time I’ve heard about limiting access to VFR flights.

But other than that, everything including CD (usually unnecessary for VFR flights) being on one frequency isn’t necessarily a downside. The biggest problem I see in this area is discomfort talking to ATC at all, not a Tower’s choices for dividing labor, so I think there’s plenty to learn from any interaction. Including flight following on every cross country.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yeah, that's part of why I was wondering how one would come up with "THOUSANDS" and wanted to read more. Could have been, for example, data from insurance companies, but I didn't see anything like that either.

I’m not defending “thousands”, but I’m also not going to say it’s impossible…we just don’t have the data.

insurance companies pr do, but I also can’t imagine them actually sharing that kind of actuarial information.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

The biggest problem I see in this area is discomfort talking to ATC at all, not a Tower’s choices for dividing labor, so I think there’s plenty to learn from any interaction. Including flight following on every cross country.

Our syllabus not only calls for using flight following, but also requesting vectors from ATC. Still, the amount of experience is limited.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Our syllabus not only calls for using flight following, but also requesting vectors from ATC. Still, the amount of experience is limited.

Are we talking private or instrument? Talking about CD and vectors is confusing the heck out of me since both are common IFR things but, other than CD at Class B, C, and TRSA, rare for VFR.

My comments have been assuming VFR. I’d be far more negative if we’re talking lack of ATC experience in IFR training.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Are we talking private or instrument? Talking about CD and vectors is confusing the heck out of me since both are common IFR things but, other than CD at Class B, C, and TRSA, rare for VFR.

My comments have been assuming VFR. I’d be far more negative if we’re talking lack of ATC experience in IFR training.

Private pilot training.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Private pilot training.

In which case, I have only heard tell of a very few Class Ds where VFR departures need to call CD, and haven't been to even one in the 30+ years I've been flying. Not even busy ones like KAPA where I spent 20 years. And while it might not be a bad tool to have in one's kit in case of an issue (since DF steers are gone), I haven't seen or heard vectors initiated by pilots on flight following. Definitely by ATC, but not, "I can't find that airport on my own, can I have a vector?" from a TRACON or Center facility. I'm curious what you are using them for.

But my main point is the same. Fear of talking to ATC at all is the usual problem. And it seems like you can get the full experience of services with cross countries, both dual and solo, to GRB and ATW. Sure I understand the costs involved but you need to do at least one day and one night dual anyway. ATW is only 62 nm away and GRB only 69. And a AUW ATW GRB flight at 153 NM seems ideal for the long solo cross country (and yes, my long cross country was to a Class C (ARSA then) I had never been to before).

I know I'm being kind of rigid about this, but I really think comfort dealing with ATC and experience with towered airports is such an important piece of private pilot training at a nontowered one. And vice versa for those who trained at towered ones. I know it's more difficult in some areas than others but not doing it is ultimately a huge disservice to the student who will spend the next 30-40 years avoiding airports unless they move on to instrument training. Maybe - I recently had a conversation with a working pilot who has been offering right seat time to instructors who are multi-rated, only to find that a few have always learned and taught as CFIs at nontowered airports and had horrible communication skills.

But heck, not my school and not my students.