Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

Ed Haywood said:
After the roll starts, it is a matter of technique, personal preference, and aircraft characteristics. Some pilots aggressively lift the tail to level to reduce induced drag. Others relax the stick and let the tail fly itself until you reach rotation speed. IMO most pilots are taught method A, but learn to prefer method B.
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People who are taught method A quickly learn to switch to method B when they move up to higher performance tailwheels.

Lot of Beech 18s wrecked due pilots trying method A…
 
Daleandee said:
During my preflight inspection one of the many tasks is to physically move the ailerons, elevator, and rudder. Isn't this standard preflight protocol for our small planes?

Yes I do a "controls free & clear" check after I board the aircraft.
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When doing flight reviews I tend to find most pilots due a pretty poor job of really checking the controls.

Most would catch a control lock still in place, but I frequently find issues with the controls hanging up with wires under the instrument panel on airplanes that have been flying frequently.
IMO the proper way to do a control check the controls is to move the yoke/Stick in a box shape two each corner of maximum movement. ie. full down and full left, to full down and full right, to full up and full right...etc. and then do it in the reverse direction, often they will only hang when moving one direction.
Only about 2 weeks ago I found a 172 elevator that would jam when pushing forward with the aileron full left. 5th flight in about a month if have aborted due to failed runup checks, 3 mag issues and carburetor running way too rich.

If I ever have a bunch of free time I would like to build a preflight simulator, basically a simple plywood mockup that has working controls with the option to easily reverse the controls. I think it would be interesting to see how many pilots would miss a reversed control, After having actually seen reversed ailerons, I think a very high percentage of pilots would not catch it.

Brian
 
brcase said:
If I ever have a bunch of free time I would like to build a preflight simulator, basically a simple plywood mockup that has working controls with the option to easily reverse the controls. I think it would be interesting to see how many pilots would miss a reversed control, After having actually seen reversed ailerons, I think a very high percentage of pilots would not catch it.
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I'm guessing you are correct.

Your idea reminds me of being in a training class many years ago where a detailed mockup of an elevator control was displayed. One of the task was to inspect it and record all the errors we found. Some of the more obvious were connections made with wrong or various types of rivets, lock nuts where castellated should have been used, improper cable size/tension etc. But the most missed item was the fact that while the control worked well, it worked in reverse. Many of us didn't catch that the first time through ... o_O
 
Mahneuvers said:
I had an instructor tell me once, for a 172, you don't need a checklist. I thought it odd and ignored the advice. I always use a checklist.
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I really like Jason Miller's teaching-that for a single pilot, it's a "do list", not a checklist (meaning-not a situation with call and response-"RPM drop with R mag selection?" "check")
I disagree with that instructor-but for 172s, think a flow or memory check, followed by backup "do list" is the way to go.
https://www.flyingmag.com/check-do-list/
 
Fearless Tower said:
What’s that got to do with the fact that some planes fly off in the 3 point attitude?
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It only has anything to do with the post I replied to and quoted. The 170 POH does not specify three-point attitude for takeoff, it specifies "tail low."
 
Here is another thing that puzzles me. Photos of similar aircraft show elevator in neutral with gust lock engaged. But surely that would not produce enough pitch to cause the aircraft to climb and stall like that.

Perhaps I assumed wrong, and the gust lock secures the stick back and elevator up?

If so, that would reconcile the taxi behavior and explain why he did not detect on the takeoff roll.

Let's say his practice was sometimes to engage the gust lock during taxi when winds are calm, to hold the tail down and free his hands to prep avionics and radios. When he gets to runup location, he releases lock and checks controls as part of checklist. When he starts takeoff roll, he leaves elevator free and lets tail fly itself until rotation speed. Something happens to interrupt or preempt his runup, he forgets to release, and does not notice until aircraft rotates unexpectedly.
 
The tail is going to come up and the airplane is going to climb with full power even with it perfectly in trail. It probably doesn't take much up elevator from neutral to cause the pitch up. The next question is what was going on with the trim. Reports are full nose down. This is as others point out, going to cause an increase in AOA if the controls are locked. The reason that rolling in nose down trim decreases AOA is that the trim causes the elevator to aerodynamically deflect upward. If that movement is blocked, all it does is add more tail downforce increasing the AOA.
 
Long time ago, but not forgotten!

How check lists can be messed up.

Some experience landing after a strong frontal passage, Baltimore International airport, wind 30+, gusting 45+, not aligned with any runway, in a Cessna 172. Taxiing included down wind. Proper use of aileron and elevator position was critical to success. Fortunately, we were nearly home, a taxi took us the rest of the way.


Years later, flying from Nebraska to Colorado Springs, in July 1978 we landed at Wray, an E Colorado airport with very bad wind and gust conditions to refuel, and taxied to the gas truck. When the gas man came out, he asked if I would like for him to move the truck so I could park into the wind for fueling. No thanks. He did the fueling as I did my usual post/pre flight inspection, but with the control lock in place. After he finished, he moved the truck around behind the 172, and tied a half inch rope from the tail ring to the ladder to the top of his truck, commenting that a gust might overcome my parking brake. Food for serious thought.


It began to dawn on me that this was NORMAL winds, and strong winds were to be expected, that far exceeded this normal. I briefed the next leg, and filed. Some steps are skipped here, as they are not relevant. I untied from the truck, started up, and carefully taxied toward the runway, using great care to have the correct deflection of control surfaces to be safe in the wind. This resulted in my first free and full deflection test.

At the run-up pad, I turned directly into the wind, and proceeded in a normal run-up, as that wind continued to rock and roll our little plane. I could have put the control lock in place to hold the yoke steady, but had my wife hold it, while I did the two handed throttle and mag switch dance. I think that I did a full and free movement after the run-up, as I always do. That was the first time I took off in such conditions, but they are normal in that part of the country. Actual altitude 3,700, density altitude nearly 5,000 feet, but plenty of wind nearly down the runway.


IF I had used the control lock, I COULD have taxied straight onto the runway, turned about 20 degrees and departed. With the power to weight that Dale had, in about 3 seconds, the control forces would have made removing my Cessna lock near impossible, and another 3 seconds, I would have been in the air, and doomed.


More than 50 years ago, one of the partners in our Cessna did a run-up with a gusting wind from behind him, and put the gust lock in, forgot it and made a takeoff run, discovered his mistake, and chopped the throttle with the wheels still on the ground. Piston engines go to zero thrust instantly, turbines much slower. He got a second chance, because the wind was right down the runway, he did not drift off into a ditch.

I am not going back to see how many seconds expired between first motion, and in the air, as the exact number is not the issue. What was Dale doing? Setting up the nav equipment for the trip? We will never know what caused Dale to do non standard steps that day, just the results.


The true bottom-line here is that WE, and the pilots we fly with must do the free and full motion before EVERY departure. Even the best of the best can die if they do not.
 
geezer said:
In his past life, he probably had a crew chief who preflighted his aircraft for him, and there are a lot of checks we routinely do that he may not have routinely done.

RIP a really great pilot. A routine item caught him.
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I don't know how the Navy does it, but in the USAF part of the after start/before taxi is to check proper control movement. Crew chief signals and uses hands to show which way things are moving.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Here is another thing that puzzles me. Photos of similar aircraft show elevator in neutral with gust lock engaged. But surely that would not produce enough pitch to cause the aircraft to climb and stall like that.
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The NTSB also noted that the trim was in the full nose down position. So when they airplane started pitching up, he went full electric trim to try and compensate. But with the elevator locked, nose down trim would actually increase the upward pitch
 
Fearless Tower said:
The NTSB also noted that the trim was in the full nose down position. So when they airplane started pitching up, he went full electric trim to try and compensate. But with the elevator locked, nose down trim would actually increase the upward pitch
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I don't understand this, can u 'splain better for a dummy like me?
 
Capngrog said:
When the elevator is locked, it becomes an extension of the horizontal stabilizer, and the trim tab becomes the elevator.
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ah yes, got it now, thanks. forgot about the actual TAB.
 
If it has tabs. If it's a screw that changes the AOA of the whole stabilizer, like a 737 or a cub, it'll reduce pitch. No idea how the plane he was flying works.
 
The Mooney tilts the entire tail, so Eman, down trim will produce effective down if the elevator is locked. Just make sure the lower hinge is not broken or "flipped" the wrong way.
 
eman1200 said:
I don't understand this, can u 'splain better for a dummy like me?
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The trim tab in the normal situation works to move the elevator in the desired direction. Nose down input moves the trim tab up which forces the elevator down which raises the tail up reducing AOA.
Now with the elevator immobile, the trim tab up just adds to the downforce on the tail and pushes the nose further up.
 
Not a mooney and not a stabilator. This is a conventional trim tab on the elevator with electric drive.
 
You have to wonder if the trim tab would have had enough authority to get him out of it had he trimmed up instead.
 
Dave Theisen said:
You have to wonder if the trim tab would have had enough authority to get him out of it had he trimmed up instead.
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But being on just one side, would it not also induce a roll? Perhaps there is still enough rudder to counter-act?
 
Could Dale not had reached down to remove the gust lock? I know it took less than 10 seconds for the stall spin to happen once airborne but maybe he had a small window to remove it.
 
Almost certainly possible in the theoretical world.

Standing fast in the no judgement zone.
 
Here's some information from page 11 of the NTSB Final Report which indicates that, while difficult, the control lock could be removed under flight conditions:

"Page 11 of 12 WPR21FA283

Another 1019 series airplane owner relayed his experience with the flight control lock. He
stated that, on one occasion, he had planned a local flight with a passenger in the back seat and
became distracted and forgot to remove the flight control lock before flight. He was able to taxi
for departure, still unaware that the lock was in place, and became distracted during the pre-
takeoff checks because he was talking to the passenger. He stated that he was able to complete
the initial stages of takeoff with the control lock engaged, and once he realized, he had to
struggle to remove the lock due to the forces on the control stick during takeoff. After a few
seconds he was able to free it, and the flight progressed uneventfully."

I think we've all experienced "Moments Of Panic" that have induced physical capabilities well beyond our usual so my guess/conjecture is that the control lock could have been removed, but that there was just not enough time to do it.
 
About 3 seconds elapsed from wheels up to the wing drop. That's a pretty fast OODA loop.

I just read that Snort only had 20 hours in this aircraft. That casts a whole new light on events. He was still learning the plane. SM is a very high performance airplane, in a much different way than a jet fighter. 400 horsepower and 1500 lbs empty weight.
 
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I just don’t understand how he didn’t notice the control lock was engaged when he poured the coals to it during takeoff. I mean, I find it very difficult to comprehend how he just didn’t notice until he was airborne, especially with all of the gyroscopic forces acting on tailwheel aircraft during the takeoff roll.
 
RyanB said:
I just don’t understand how he didn’t notice the control lock was engaged when he poured the coals to it during takeoff. I mean, I find it very difficult to comprehend how he just didn’t notice until he was airborne, especially with all of the gyroscopic forces acting on tailwheel aircraft during the takeoff roll.
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If his takeoff technique was to leave the elevator free and let the tail fly itself, then he would not feel any gyroscopic forces or stick resistance during the roll. That appears to be what happened. He'd get plenty of torque and P factor when he applied power, but that gets controlled with rudder.
 
He may not have EVER known it was the control lock. In the comfort of our arm chairs and having already seen the video we are quick to wonder that.

When an airplane heads straight up off the ground and you can’t move the stick, you just might think something broke or jammed them, before thinking about a control lock….

There isn’t much to be learned from how to take it off in an extreme situation.

How he didn’t notice is easy, he must not have grabbed the stick and moved it with the intent of determining if they were free and clear.

Have to keep asking why…

Knowing he had so little time in THAT type certainly grabs my attention.
 
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Tools said:
....Knowing he had so little time in THAT type certainly grabs my attention.
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just curious, is there A N Y type of plane where you don't do a control check? so, new-to-him plane or not, you'd think that is just SOP and not something one needs to learn when getting in a new plane.
 
Yep you would think… but…

Have you EVER found a problem with the controls? 12000 hours and 40 different kinds and planes and I haven’t.

I HAVE been distracted by issues related to it being unfamiliar to the point that might not have been the first thing across my mind.

Right or wrong… this ISNT improbable.

With experience comes different demons.
 
RyanB said:
I just don’t understand how he didn’t notice the control lock was engaged when he poured the coals to it during takeoff. I mean, I find it very difficult to comprehend how he just didn’t notice until he was airborne, especially with all of the gyroscopic forces acting on tailwheel aircraft during the takeoff roll.
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The rudder and tailwheel steering worked and that's what you use to counter most of the gyroscopic forces.
 
Tools said:
Have you EVER found a problem with the controls? 12000 hours and 40 different kinds and planes and I haven’t.

.
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You bet I have but before engine start. I used to park the plane outside and would often find birds nesting in my tail.

The other interesting one is that on the Navion (at least mine), if the mixture is pulled all the way out to idle cutoff, and you've got the yoke full forward, the wheel will hit the mixture knob. There's not much interference there but enough for you to notice. Not that this is ever a flight regime you'd be get into.
 
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