A question for you career military guys.

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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A question for you career military guys.
With less than a month remaining on his scheduled tour, the commanding officer at our facility was relieved of duty due to loss of confidence in his ability to command. The admiral flew down to personally do the deed. My question is, is it normal for the admiral to do it personally or only in egregious circumstances? How is this typically done? Does he get to retire with a pension or does that depend on the circumstances.
 
Some do it over the phone, some in person. If it was the typical “loss of confidence in ability to lead” could be just poor performance or a UCMJ violation. Poor performance and you get to keep your pay but most likely a career ender. UCMJ violation and a punitive discharge could result in forfeiture of retirement pay. Depends on the situation.
 
If it was poor performance and he only had 2 or 3 weeks left on his tour, wouldn’t they have just let it end on its own? And shouldn’t poor performance have been noted much earlier and acted upon before now?

Sounds like it must have been something pretty egregious requiring immediate action.

But I’m not in the military so that’s pure speculation based on how we managed things in the civilian defense contractor world.
 
Half Fast said:
If it was poor performance and he only had 2 or 3 weeks left on his tour, wouldn’t they have just let it end on its own?
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Poor performance generally means something different in the military than it does is the outside world. For example, when something results in impact to good order and discipline.

The other part is that allegations may have been under investigation for a while and finally substantiated to the degree necessary to support the action being taken.



Half Fast said:
…Sounds like it must have been something pretty egregious requiring immediate action...
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Could be anything from being untruthful to the boss to a poorly timed “F-U” to the superior commander, to a DUI or other alcohol related event.

One of my last assignments had a commander who was a functional alcoholic. Everybody in the unit knew it, all his peers knew it, his boss and his boss’ boss knew it by the one year/halfway mark. The dilemma was that the unit had subordinate leaders doing their best to keep it running and succeeding at doing so. With about six months to go, the photographic evidence showed up on Facebook of the guy romantically involved with a woman not his wife. That was the straw the broke the camels back for good order and discipline. Guy was relieved immediately and the #2 installed as a temporary commander. Took a month or so for the next guy to arrive and do the change of command.
 
TCABM said:
With about six months to go, the photographic evidence showed up on Facebook of the guy romantically involved with a woman not his wife. That was the straw the broke the camels back for good order and discipline.
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Happens in the civilian world, too. My company fired the guy who was two months from becoming CEO when it was found he'd been having an affair with a subordinate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/afonte...elationship-with-subordinate/?sh=3676467c4d8c

"Kubasik was set to become Lockheed’s chief executive in January, replacing incumbent Robert Stevens. But an internal investigation revealed an improper relationship with a female employee, which led to the board asking and receiving Kubasik’s resignation immediately. The investigation was the result of an investigation completed by an outside independent firm, according to a spokesperson for Lockheed, after a third employee brought the issue to the company's ethics committee. Marillyn Hewson, executive vice president of Electronic Systems, will take his spot."​

I've always admired Stevens and our BoD for firing Kubasik. That move, and bringing on Hewson as a new CEO several years earlier than planned, could have caused severe issues with customers and with Wall Street. It took some cajones to address the problem straight on, no BS, and shove Kubasik out the door.

Last I knew, Kubasik was CEO and a board member at L3Harris, which I suppose might say something about L3Harris' commitment to ensuring high ethical standards......
 
You have to screw up really big time to not be allowed to retire with rank. An unnamed family member was caught possessing federally prohibited contraband (not drugs) and was allowed to keep his command during the time it took to process his retirement.
 
Pretty sure he just started terminal leave "early." There are protections for federal (military) retirements starting at 16 years of service. As long as the complaint is not criminal in nature. Even then, they are usually allowed to retire.

Pure speculation time:
Well, he was driving a base and not a ship, so he didn't run aground... Usually, that would mean fraternization was involved. If it were drugs or alcohol, or a prostitution ring, the MA's would have been summoned. Also, losing a weapon, an accidental weapon discharge, or losing something in a Red or Orange folder would do it.

I've witnessed all of those things getting a CO fired during my time. Usually, it's the frat thing that warrants an Admiral visit though.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Not many red or orange folders here. No MP’s that I heard of. Adultery is still a punishable thing in the military, correct? I assume that’s what you mean by fraternization.
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Usually, the adultery is also with the help.

Fraternization is an unduly familiar relationship with a subordinate.
 
The times I've seen "loss of confidence in ability to lead" has either been some sort of sexual misconduct (usually with someone in the unit), or the unit has run amok and multiple members are ****ing up so bad that the upper echelon says "you obviously are in over your head."

 
Don't read too much into it. The next level of command may have used this as a way to discredit someone that was "disruptive" or it could have been a major issue. You really don't know unless you have read an OER, FITREP, or whatever your branch calls them. Just drive on and keep doing your job to the best of your ability and try to stay out of the politics of the unit.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Not many red or orange folders here. No MP’s that I heard of. Adultery is still a punishable thing in the military, correct? I assume that’s what you mean by fraternization.
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Both adultery and fraternization are punishable offenses. Generally it’s a warning or some type of LOR. Conduct continues, they drop the hammer. Usually that’s getting kicked out of the unit. Definitely not something that affects retirement pay though.
 
I received a couple of letters of reprimand during my undistinguished, mediocre military career, one deserved and one not, and later removed by the Corps Commander ( Both Generals in temp file) I was, as you say, competent but having a slight issue with the incompetence in the chain of command…This guy obviously did something pretty bad…Yes, I retired on my own terms and never was relieved….
 
red4golf said:
You really don't know unless you have read an OER, FITREP, or whatever your branch calls them.
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Even then, unless you know how to decode it, you don't even know. I make a bet I could put a crap OPR in front of someone with no military experience and they would think, "what a ****-hot officer, that guy is really going places!" When in reality the OPR speaks volumes about what a ****-head the guy really is.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Even then, unless you know how to decode it, you don't even know. I make a bet I could put a crap OPR in front of someone with no military experience and they would think, "what a ****-hot officer, that guy is really going places!" When in reality the OPR speaks volumes about what a ****-head the guy really is.
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You are 100% correct. Too many times I've seen people promoted out to make way for people that could actually do the job.
 
Relief for cause is almost always done in person. That is the only way to ensure positive transfer of command authority. Show up, fire the old guy, put the new guy in place, inform the unit, and escort the old guy out so he does not undermine the new commander.

Any senior commander worth a damn would do this face to face. As Ned Stark said, the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. However, sometimes in real life there are travel constraints that make it impossible. In that case, the commander might send a deputy. In extreme circumstances such as combat, I have seen a commander summoned to HQ, told he was fired, then a new commander dispatched to take his place. But firing over the phone or email, no way.

"Lack of confidence" and firing someone with a short time left usually implies some sort of misconduct, or a very badly broken command climate.

If a flag officer did the firing, I assume the relieved commander was an O-5 or higher. Commands at that level are normally Centralized Selection List (CSL) positions, eg selected and approved by a board at the service HQ. I don't know what the approval authority is for relief of a CSL commander, but it is normally at least 2 levels up, with visibility all the way to the Pentagon level.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Even then, unless you know how to decode it, you don't even know. I make a bet I could put a crap OPR in front of someone with no military experience and they would think, "what a ****-hot officer, that guy is really going places!" When in reality the OPR speaks volumes about what a ****-head the guy really is.
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Ha, OERs (Officer Effectiveness Reports). Back when I was a lowly 2nd Lieutenant in the Air Force, one of the grizzled old captains set me down and told me what's what.

Basically, OERs back then (and probably now) had a huge amount of inflation. OER writers had basically a catalog a phrases to use to establish that each of their reportees was a water-walker. Got to be that the determining factor was *who* signed your OER. If your reporting officer signed it, you were boned. If he convinced the squadron commander to sign it, you were better off. Even better is if he could get the commander's boss to sign it. My last one was signed by the 14th Air Force commander with a recommendation for a regular commission.

It seemed stupid and wasted to me back then, but then, something like 96% of the first lieutenants would get promoted to captain (one of my co-workers failed to make it, good riddance). Guys like the grizzled old captain were sweating it; much lower rate of promotion to major, and if you were passed over three times, you were out. If you had no prior service, that would be before the 16-year point, which meant no retirement, no pension. Hit mostly the ROTC guys, since the ring-knockers took care of their own, and the prior-service enlisted guys generally had another ~four years of service before commissioning.

Best story I heard was of an Air Force guy who participated in a service exchange to the Marine Corps. Came back with an OER probably correctly reflecting his strengths and weaknesses, but it was the kiss of death in the Air Force OER inflation world.

Ron "I would not breed from this officer" Wanttaja
 
Ed Haywood said:
Relief for cause is almost always done in person. That is the only way to ensure positive transfer of command authority. Show up, fire the old guy, put the new guy in place, inform the unit, and escort the old guy out so he does not undermine the new commander.

Any senior commander worth a damn would do this face to face. As Ned Stark said, the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. However, sometimes in real life there are travel constraints that make it impossible. In that case, the commander might send a deputy. In extreme circumstances such as combat, I have seen a commander summoned to HQ, told he was fired, then a new commander dispatched to take his place. But firing over the phone or email, no way.

"Lack of confidence" and firing someone with a short time left usually implies some sort of misconduct, or a very badly broken command climate.

If a flag officer did the firing, I assume the relieved commander was an O-5 or higher. Commands at that level are normally Centralized Selection List (CSL) positions, eg selected and approved by a board at the service HQ. I don't know what the approval authority is for relief of a CSL commander, but it is normally at least 2 levels up, with visibility all the way to the Pentagon level.
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O-6
 
"This officer failed to uphold the low standards he set for himself".
 
First, uh, if he was relieved like that, it’s egregious. Period. Warranted or not, who knows, but it’s FAR from normal.

So there I was.... tower flower during a recovery on the carrier. That’s a regular old pilot who gets to go up to bridge during flight Ops, every airplane type had one for each launch and recovery to provide advice when needed, aircraft specific, and to take heat when your guys screwed up.

We had a destroyer half mile ahead on our starboard bow make a hard left... out of nowhere, right in the middle of the recovery. I saw it, being a former ship driver knew we were about to hear... and then I heard it... the collision alarm! YIKES!!

The boss immediately called for a wave off on the ball, and delta easy’ed all the airborne planes. Gear up and max conserve.

The ship started to shudder as we immediately crash backed... pretty impressive on a aircraft carrier.

We were stunned as we only saw the masts and stacks of the (relatively) small destroyer cross ahead of us. I’d have bet everything I owned we were gonna t-bone her and people were gonna die. Unreal.

Miraculously, it popped out on our port bow, hooked a hard right and took station there... onward we pressed.

The phone rang, the boss answered, “yes sir, yes sir, yes sir”. Picked up the mic and said “sea wolf 80 whatever, you’re cleared to recover spot three”. “Sea wolf whatever, roger”.

A minute later the plane guard helo landed, we all rushed to the bridge windows, looked down and watched a khaki figure with LOTS of scrambled eggs on this hat, er, cover, go board the helo. And it took off and headed to the offending ship!

I was the only former ship driver up there, I said, guys, that guy is about to be relieved!! Sure enough we all watched through our binocs as scrambled eggs crawled out, walked into the hanger, two guys with scrambled eggs walked back to the helo and it came home.

It landed, same two scrambled egg guys walked back into the island.

Justice is SWIFT at sea! Wow! And just like that, some executive officer got his first command.

Never did know what happened. Was surreal.

Back to the OP. Could be ANYTHING. Could have been something one of his guys did! Hard to say. He will almost certainly get his retirement. But it was likely the worst moment of his life.
 
wanttaja said:
Basically, OERs back then (and probably now) had a huge amount of inflation.
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That creates quite a shock for some ex-military when they enter civilian employment.

A few years ago I had an ex-Army guy working for me, fresh out of the service. IIRC he was a former Lt Col. When I gave him his first annual performance review, it was a 2 out of 5, 1 being the top, and he was very upset. Thought it was unjust (it wasn't) and was a death-knell for his career (it certainly wasn't; he was very sharp). It took a while to get him to understand that our ratings were factual and not inflated, and being brand new to the company he did not have the same skills and could not perform as well as people in his same salary grade with 20+ years at the company.

Talking with him, I felt like I was working the suicide hotline and coaxing him back off the ledge. It was a real blast of culture shock to him, but when he talked with a few other ex-military colleagues it calmed him down a bit.
 
I always looked at OERs as pretty much check the block BS. I always wanted to list on my support form under PERFORMANCE OBJECTIVES “log as much time as possible without crashing.”Unfortunately that simplistic mindset won’t get one promoted in today’s military so I had to list all my goals for improving my various BS additional duties. Unless the person who had said duties before me was a complete screw up, there wasn’t much room for improvement. Therefore a certain amount of embellishing was necessary on the support form. As they say, you get promoted for what you do outside the cockpit. ;)
 
So there I was... forced to supply my own fitness report input. Something I considered the responsibility of my boss, not mine...

I had done well and was rewarded with the best division officer job in the squadron, the Avionics/Armament division, all sharp and had a couple even more junior officers working for me. Easy peasy.

My brag sheet read thusly:

Assumed control of the highly successful AV/Arm Division, and changed nothing.

My dept head was NOT amused... I WAS serious.
 
My first two OER’s were at the end of an era that because I was married included the participation of my Wife in support of the Unit and Army…my side was inflated…Imagine that now.
 
Velocity173 said:
…As they say, you get promoted for what you do outside the cockpit. ;)
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When I was a scheduler, I found the AF’s cost per flying hour breakdown for every airframe and then used that to put a dollar amount on every training event put on the calendar.

Simple spreadsheet that opened some eyes to the value of various ranges we went to.

Also built one that compared range trip cost to training events completed that opened some eyes on the value of lesser known ranges.
 
Only thing on the OER that matters is the senior rater block: above, below, or center mass. The Army fixed inflation with a forced profile. Senior raters are expected to limit their top blocks to 1/3 of their rated population. If you exceed 50%, the Army deletes all your ratings and you get a call from YOUR senior rater asking why you can't do your job.

Some commanders attempt to game the system, but in the end there are only so many top blocks to give. When I was a company commander, I had 7 captains as team leaders. The battalion commander made it clear he could only give 2 top blocks to my guys, but I tap danced my ass off and talked him out of one more top block. The guy who got it wound up commanding a battalion himself and retired as an O-6. My #1 guy is a General now. The system looks like BS but it mostly works.
 
wanttaja said:
Ha, OERs (Officer Effectiveness Reports). Back when I was a lowly 2nd Lieutenant in the Air Force, one of the grizzled old captains set me down and told me what's what.

Basically, OERs back then (and probably now) had a huge amount of inflation. OER writers had basically a catalog a phrases to use to establish that each of their reportees was a water-walker. Got to be that the determining factor was *who* signed your OER. If your reporting officer signed it, you were boned. If he convinced the squadron commander to sign it, you were better off. Even better is if he could get the commander's boss to sign it. My last one was signed by the 14th Air Force commander with a recommendation for a regular commission.

It seemed stupid and wasted to me back then, but then, something like 96% of the first lieutenants would get promoted to captain (one of my co-workers failed to make it, good riddance). Guys like the grizzled old captain were sweating it; much lower rate of promotion to major, and if you were passed over three times, you were out. If you had no prior service, that would be before the 16-year point, which meant no retirement, no pension. Hit mostly the ROTC guys, since the ring-knockers took care of their own, and the prior-service enlisted guys generally had another ~four years of service before commissioning.

Best story I heard was of an Air Force guy who participated in a service exchange to the Marine Corps. Came back with an OER probably correctly reflecting his strengths and weaknesses, but it was the kiss of death in the Air Force OER inflation world.

Ron "I would not breed from this officer" Wanttaja
Click to expand...


Ed Haywood said:
Only thing on the OER that matters is the senior rater block: above, below, or center mass. The Army fixed inflation with a forced profile. Senior raters are expected to limit their top blocks to 1/3 of their rated population. If you exceed 50%, the Army deletes all your ratings and you get a call from YOUR senior rater asking why you can't do your job.

Some commanders attempt to game the system, but in the end there are only so many top blocks to give. When I was a company commander, I had 7 captains as team leaders. The battalion commander made it clear he could only give 2 top blocks to my guys, but I tap danced my ass off and talked him out of one more top block. The guy who got it wound up commanding a battalion himself and retired as an O-6. My #1 guy is a General now. The system looks like BS but it mostly works.
Click to expand...

I recall in Army ROTC (a number of decades ago) being told in class that giving someone other than top marks straight across the board was the kiss of death to his career. Sounds like things have changed since the early 1970s.
 
Well, like everything they cycle. The Navy resets by changing nomenclature usually. Then the slow creep sets in, change it, get honest a little while, lather rinse repeat...

Hehe, so there I was... during one of these comical versions that required all the junior officers to rank our peers... WTF? DEFINITELY not my job. I was pretty much brow beat into doing it. Hehe, I asked what criteria I should use, that’s up to me. Any criteria I think is important? Yep... Aye aye sir... and my overly anti social self proceeded to rank all my peers, and myself, alphabetically.

Boss quickly figured that out. I was just happy I’m a “D”. Whew... Poor Ziemba... but hey, rules are rules...

I think alphabetical is VERY important for good well being of the universe. VERY important.

Again, my boss was NOT amused. “You can’t do that!” Me: “oh, so now you’re telling me how I should have ranked them, like ya shoulda done in the first place?”

Anyone here surprised I was NOT marked “early promote”? Hehe, as it turns out, promotable, is not! BWAHAHAHA
 
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Half Fast said:
It took a while to get him to understand that our ratings were factual and not inflated, and being brand new to the company he did not have the same skills and could not perform as well as people in his same salary grade with 20+ years at the company.
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This is why I am no longer a school teacher. When the rookie is rated Teacher of the Month, in their first month as a teacher, it sends a terrible signal to everyone. What possible growth is expected from a person that starts the game at the top? What does that say about the 20-year vet? In my first year of teaching, I was observed (rated) 5 times and received exactly one piece of feedback that might be construed as negative. "You might want to consider not playing music in the background as the students do individual work." Rated 5 out of 5. Seriously, there is nothing that the clueless new history teacher (Music Major) needs to work on? I digress...

I really need to stop working for the government. o_O
 
“Officer has unique leadership skills with subordinates following out of curiosity”

I read a lot of OER’s as a Brigade Adjutant and had to be a classic senior rater comment…
 
Warlock said:
“Officer has unique leadership skills with subordinates following out of curiosity”

I read a lot of OER’s as a Brigade Adjutant and had to be a classic senior rater comment…
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That’s posterity right there.
 
Ya, that about cost me a keyboard... you know, the whole sprayed mouthful of coffee routine...

Really, I’m not sure I don’t resemble that remark.
 
Ghery said:
I recall in Army ROTC (a number of decades ago) being told in class that giving someone other than top marks straight across the board was the kiss of death to his career. Sounds like things have changed since the early 1970s.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, it changed big time in 1995. Most commanders maintained an informal 1/3-2/3 profile structure prior to that, but as the Army shrunk after the cold war, commanders lost control of their rating profiles and got top heavy. Once that happened, anything below a top block did become the kiss of death. The forced profile implemented in 1995 reset everything, so 2 blocks (center of mass) were the norm and a top block does mean something.
 
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