Scottsdale Jet with the cooperation of the City is evicting all aircraft in shade and tee hangar parking in the Greenway area. To be replaced by a terminal/ hangar forca single tenant, likely NetJets. Please help us in this fight. see savescottsdalega.org for details
Ksdl killing general aviation
- Thread starter djr
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Kenny Phillips
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Final Approach
From what I am reading online, the decision to do this was made several years ago and has been an ongoing project.
You are too late to stop it now.
You are too late to stop it now.
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schmookeeg
En-Route
"I demand to keep my taylorcraft tied down at JFK for $30/mo forever"
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Scottsdale is a 121 hub?
Scottsdale:
59% transient general aviation
32% local general aviation
8% air taxi
<1% military
JFK:
91% commercial
6% air taxi
3% transient general aviation
<1% military
Yeah, exactly the same type of airport.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Hyperbole aside, SDL is a bougie airport. Gentrification happens everywhere.
Owners get rich, renters pay up or move on.
Whining helps none of it. "Killing GA" my foot. Bizjets are just as much GA. GA at SDL is alive and well every time I pop in there.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Perhaps, but it's not like there's 100 hangars available at DVT is there? Looking at the sectional, where are 100 parking spaces supposed to magically appear on the NE side of Phoenix metro?
I mean it's always OK as long as it's not "my" airport, right?
I mean it's always OK as long as it's not "my" airport, right?
schmookeeg
En-Route
...Let them eat Casa Grande?
It happens near me plenty. Things change and evolve? Hell I'm neighbor to the joint that killed 100LL -- coming soon to SDL I'm sure.
I think these posts are like demanding that Ruth's Chris put in the Chocolate Fountain from Golden Corral. Ridiculous.
It happens near me plenty. Things change and evolve? Hell I'm neighbor to the joint that killed 100LL -- coming soon to SDL I'm sure.
I think these posts are like demanding that Ruth's Chris put in the Chocolate Fountain from Golden Corral. Ridiculous.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I look at it like demolishing a poor neighborhood to put in a golf course.
"Oh you can't afford a 5BR 4BA house in Snoburbia? Too bad."
dans2992
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Dans2992
oh, it’s not $30! Why not just raise the hangar rent until the market equalizes? There’s likely already a years long waiting list.
fasteddie
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Fasteddie
Haven't flown into SDL, but been to Phoenix several times on business, and have some friends there. Whenever I hear "Scottsdale" from folks, it's always accompanied by some comment about all the wealth in the area "Snots-dale, etc." Looking at Google Maps, it looks like SDL is hemmed in on all sides by development. And dang, there is an awful lot of turbine aircraft parked there. I wish the Greenview folks luck in what they're trying to do, and will be interested to see what you aviation attorney comes up with.
Regarding this below pulled from savescottsdalega.org, I gotta ask, since the issue of hangar usage and dormant aircraft has been brought up before: 100 parking spots? How many have an aircraft parked in them? How many of those aircraft move on a regular basis?
Regarding this below pulled from savescottsdalega.org, I gotta ask, since the issue of hangar usage and dormant aircraft has been brought up before: 100 parking spots? How many have an aircraft parked in them? How many of those aircraft move on a regular basis?
Kenny Phillips
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Yeah, gonna guess there are a lot of ramp queens (I guess there always have been.)
NJP_MAN
Pattern Altitude
If you look at Google maps of sdl today it doesn't come close to giving a good idea of the real situation. It's worse than it looks. There are many buildings that aren't even on Google maps that have been built since the last time they took the picture. I can't believe the last remaining pistons want any part of that airport. I've seen aircraft holding short for 45 minutes waiting for an opportunity to get out. Seems like an incredible waste of time and money.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I am going to play devils advocate here and say that if someone’s paying their lease they shouldn’t get evicted just because… and it’s hypocritical of liberals to do so in poor man’s aviation…
The heart of the issue is that the land lease provided for a new jet facility but only 2 short rows of shades were to be impacted. The city council was told by the airport director in 2018that most of the shades and all of the hangars would not be impacted. He is now singing a different tune.
The new project is not what was approved in the land lease transfer that was approved in 2018. That plan would have removed 20 tie downs and no hangars.
Rgbeard
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rgbeard
If I lived in Scottsdale (I have in the past) I would keep my plane at Deer Valley or Falcon.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Clip4
Final Approach
Multi year waiting lists everywhere in the Phoenix area. Wait lists for shade parking too. Even hard to find open air tiedowns! KSdl has eliminated all but apart 50 parking spots for single engine and light twins.
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Morgan3820
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Fracpilot
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Fracpilot
Why do you say “likely Netjets”? Netjets uses Signature and Jet Aviation at SDL. I haven’t heard of any talks of building a hanger. They usually lease the hangers that are already built at our busiest facilities like TEB or SJC. I’ve never heard of Netjets building a hanger, especially at a non service hub airport.
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Clip4
Final Approach
From savescottsdalega.org site. They claim 100 “invaluable” spots.
Those “invaluable” hangars do have a value and would have to rent for $2,500 a month to offset the revenue from the new project.
Those “invaluable” hangars do have a value and would have to rent for $2,500 a month to offset the revenue from the new project.
…a comment which would be irrefutable at a privately-owned airport. Less so at a grant rights field, heavily using federal grant money. They are supposed to support all facets of aviation, not just the ones with big money.
dans2992
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Dans2992
So, if prices were raised to $2500/mo, how many takers would there be? I’m guessing they could still fill them.
The hangars are being torn down by Scottsdale Jet Aviation, a FBO owned by General Dynamics. The new project includes hangar space, conference rooms, a terminal area etc. and is for a single tenant. We were told Netjets…but that is unconfirmed which is why i said “likely”.
The City has a landlease with Scottsdale Jet…a subsidiary of General Dynamics. That lease provides for a smaller scale project that impacted about 20 shade tiedowns. Scottsdale Jet has expanded the project beyond what is described in the lease. Scottsdale Jet’s first attempt to get everyone out was to issue new hangar leases with onerous terms ..like $5 million in liability insurance… which is unobtainable.
The hangars are being torn down by Scottsdale Jet Aviation, a FBO owned by General Dynamics. The new project includes hangar space, conference rooms, a terminal area etc. and is for a single tenant. We were told Netjets…but that is unconfirmed which is why i said “likely”.
Clip4
Final Approach
Federal grants cannot be used for operational expenses and if your claim was correct there would be single piston sized T hangers at the busiest airports in the US.
Private jets are GA, or at least what AOPA keeps telling me. That includes fractionally owned Part 91 operations. You guys are arguing with the high rollers and asking for donations.
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You could be close to correct, or very wrong. I don’t know enough about this airport to suggest which.
But, it’s not an open and shut deal. And, airports are supposed to be self-supporting, not profit-maximizing.
Clip4
Final Approach
The airport, by definition, is non profit. They may from time to time have a surplus and It is illegal for funds from airport operations to be sent to the city.
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You're correct. This is a doctrine often left unenforced by a disinterested FAA, something about which I am exquisitely informed.
midwestpa24
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midwestpa24
Do you realize what it costs to build and maintain the infrastructure of an airport? Only the largest airports actually turn a "profit", but that profit goes back into funding infrastructure. Airports are always seeking additional revenue to support their operations. In the case of SDL, an airport that appears to be land-locked with no more developable space available, they have to look at what will generate the most revenue on a cost per sq foot basis. Shade-tree hangars and small pistons, or a large FBO type complex? Airports are obligated to do the best they can to be self-supporting and to allow all types of aeronautical use. They are not obligated to provide low cost options for specific types of use. I doubt you'll find T-hangars or shade ports at most Class B airports.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Oh? Even if the landlord has other and better uses for that land?
So tenant wishes outweigh leaseholder wishes?
I feel like this differing point of view is fundamental to a lot of "conversations" lately
The KSDL Master Plan shows about 280 single engine and light twins based at the airport. But the airport’s actions over the last few years combined with new project eliminates parking for about 200 of them.Oh? Even if the landlord has other and better uses for that land?
So tenant wishes outweigh leaseholder wishes?
I feel like this differing point of view is fundamental to a lot of "conversations" lately
Lindberg
Final Approach
Well, if the tenant is paying the lease, he can't be evicted except under the terms of the lease and state law. But leases have terms, and the landlord might not renew them. It always surprises me the extent to which cities and counties, large and small, subsidize my hobby. It won't shock me when they stop.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Yeah, but that's circular. They also take a TON of money from you involuntarily, as well, and forcing you out of a hangar is a pretty big deal many places, where there are NO good options to move to.