When to pull throttle idle on landing.

[PaulS]

Inexperienced student arguing with instructor, what a combo!

I've had instructors that were wrong more than once. It doesn't sound like this one is wrong though.

Yup, you have to trust your instructor implicitly, especially during primary training. As a primary student, arguing with one who is telling you that you need to pull power on short final is stupid. It is stupid for a couple reasons. First is the instructor is most likely absolutely correct. Second is the instructor is the one who will determine when you are ready to solo, if in his judgement you are not landing properly, no solo. Third, as a primary student, you don't know what you don't know.


That said, I've had instructors who were wrong too. In one case, I'd go with different instructors occasionally during my IR training. I was on a VOR approach, that basically came in perpendicular to the runway, circle to land. I'm under the hood, it was barely a vfr day but we had plenty of vis and were well below the ceiling. I had dme, watching the approach, at about 2 1/2 miles from the airport, the instructor tells me to pull off my hood. I thought it was way too soon, but whatever, I pull it off. The instructor says "look down, you are flying over the runway". Confused, I looked down and saw a snow covered corn field. So I said, "that's a corn field, I'm not landing there, we are still 2 miles from the runway". They do occasionally screw up, but a primary student should just listen and do.

 

[Deelee]

I am arguing with him

That kinda says it all right there. Pull the power whenever you think you should. Good luck.

By the way, don't try pulling the power too soon if you are flying Le Hershey-Bar-Arrow. They don't like ground effect much. In fact, the laugh in the face of ground effect and will fall right through it and reward you with a beautiful plunk and possibly struts protruding through the wings if you pull the power too soon. These machines have a safe glide ratio... meaning they glide like a safe. (ba-dum-tiss). Or in an engine out emergency in this type of Arrow, always use the POH - Take the POH, throw it out the window and follow it down. (amirite??)

 

[iamtheari]

That kinda says it all right there. Pull the power whenever you think you should. Good luck.

By the way, don't try pulling the power too soon if you are flying Le Hershey-Bar-Arrow. They don't like ground effect much. In fact, the laugh in the face of ground effect and will fall right through it and reward you with a beautiful plunk and possibly struts protruding through the wings if you pull the power too soon. These machines have a safe glide ratio... meaning they glide like a safe. (ba-dum-tiss). Or in an engine out emergency in this type of Arrow, always use the POH - Take the POH, throw it out the window and follow it down. (amirite??)

I have 500+ hours in a Hershey Bar Arrow. I always make that joke, but afterwards I always apologize to all the safe manufacturers out there whose product has a better glide ratio. Of the planes I have flown, the Arrow is the lightest one that likes some power down to the runway. But I also did my commercial in it and it handled power-off 180s just fine.

 

[Rgbeard]

That kinda says it all right there. Pull the power whenever you think you should. Good luck.

By the way, don't try pulling the power too soon if you are flying Le Hershey-Bar-Arrow. They don't like ground effect much. In fact, the laugh in the face of ground effect and will fall right through it and reward you with a beautiful plunk and possibly struts protruding through the wings if you pull the power too soon. These machines have a safe glide ratio... meaning they glide like a safe. (ba-dum-tiss). Or in an engine out emergency in this type of Arrow, always use the POH - Take the POH, throw it out the window and follow it down. (amirite??)

And the Lance moreso than the Arrow/Archer.

 

[Deelee]

And the Lance moreso than the Arrow/Archer.

I wish I had a Lance

1.5 years after getting the Arrow, half of my landings are still mild plunkers. Nothing gear-bending, but not all greasers, either. Yes, you heard it here first... a pilot who doesn't claim to grease every landing. Someone should probably come take away my cert now.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Did I miss the opportunity to learn a more 'modern' way of landing?

Yup. You were really lucky to learn it the way you did. If the engine poops out on downwind you will have the skills to make the runway.

 

[Huckster79]

Peg thy airspeed

peg thy airspeed

peg thy airspeed…

there’s times dragging it in is the way to go but usually not- but the difference is none in terms of pegging airspeed.

I think training that is “pull to xxxx rpm here, pull to idle here” is simply too elementary. So that works fairly well where ya trained in the Midwest, ya get your ticket and take a trip out west, now ya have an airport at 5,000msl and some DA to deal with… follow that mechanical approach and you may come up short.

My little birds 100mph machine cruising around home give or take, give her some 8500 DA and it’s 80/85. I’m simply going to need more throttle or glide for the same pattern.

learn to fly the “d” Plane. Which means learning to peg airspeed or use changing it to your advantage for given situation. Lil high slow her up 5 with a bit more nose high attitude, coming up a little short- add some juice or pitch down a bit…. It’s not about mechanics as much as learning to fly the plane and pegging your airspeed, at least to short final then it’s by feel IMO.

I think instructor tho is spot on for basic landings…

 

[Timbeck2]

Landing conditions are like snowflakes - no two are the same. You just gotta feel it and adjust accordingly.

And don't argue with your instructor, bite the hand that feeds you or pee into the wind.

 

[Clip4]

What’s up all. Hope you had a good new year. Got a question:

me and my instructor have been arguing about my landings for the past couple of weeks. He wants me to pull throttle to idle right when I cross the numbers. But I’m still like 2 wing spans higher than the runway. I am arguing with him telling him that I think I should stay at 1500 RPMs until I round off and then easily pull back throttle during my flare to dissipate airspeed. Anyone have any thoughts? I just feel like when you pull the throttle back right over the numbers the plane wants to down real fast and then you play the game of trying to catch up with it and pull it back up

thanks

I don’t recommend “pull the throttle” for a student learning landings. Rapid power changes causes rapid pitch and descent rate changes. A nice smooth reduction in power to idle over about 3 seconds works well.

Ground effect and 1500 rpm will drag you far down the runway and short field landings are in your near future.

 

[Rgbeard]

I wish I had a Lance

1.5 years after getting the Arrow, half of my landings are still mild plunkers. Nothing gear-bending, but not all greasers, either. Yes, you heard it here first... a pilot who doesn't claim to grease every landing. Someone should probably come take away my cert now.

When are you coming to AZ?

 

[PaulS]

I don’t recommend “pull the throttle” for a student learning landings. Rapid power changes causes rapid pitch and descent rate changes. A nice smooth reduction in power to idle over about 3 seconds works well.

Ground effect and 1500 rpm will drag you far down the runway and short field landings are in your near future.

There is a lot missing from the OP. He could be consistently low over the threshold, or consistently 10 knots fast, or consistently high.

 

[Brad W]

Downwind. Maybe turning base if there's someone in front of me really dragging it in on a long, powered final.

What are you flying?

yep.

I'm reminded of my pre-solo time with my first instructor. Cessna 152, uncontrolled but busy field.
Every landing...power ease to idle abeam the numbers on downwind.
His logic.... the runway should be made then and he wanted me to have that safety factor built into my pattern before solo. Pretty much every landing except maybe if we did any at a neighboring controlled field....or if we got stuck in a pattern behind some knucklehead flying a 1+ mile pattern.
I suppose because of that I've always disliked having to carry power all the way to the runway. I sure would hate to be forced to make an off runway landing if my engine went kaput over the fence. Probably also why I have always had a "bad" habit of coming in too high. That said, it seems some planes require power all the way to make a decent pattern.

 

[Deelee]

When are you coming to AZ?

When I get a Lance LOL!

Kidding... we go out there a couple times a year to visit my wife's dad. He is up in Payson... we fly to PHX rent a car and drive up through the mountains.

 

[Doug Reid]

Like many questions asked here, IMO, the student OP needs to listen to his instructor.

Later on when transitioning to other aircraft, he will see that no one size fits all when it comes to landing and managing power on approach and landing.

 

[Rgbeard]

When I get a Lance LOL!

Kidding... we go out there a couple times a year to visit my wife's dad. He is up in Payson... we fly to PHX rent a car and drive up through the mountains.

LMK, have your fam drive the car, we'll fly it.

 

[jbDC9]

me and my instructor have been arguing….

“My instructor and I….” Please, use proper English and grammar. Reading that line gave me a headache.

And, to pile on what everyone else has said, don’t argue with your instructor. He knows more than you.

 

[mandm]

Maybe the student just called it an argument, it could be a one way mental disagreement that is not being verbally spoken to his instructor. I feel like that as well. My instructor likes power off on landings, I prefer to have throttle in a bit, I aim for the “refrigerators” and typically land at runways >6000’ so it really doesn’t matter where I land, there’s enough runway. On a Cessna less throttle, on a Piper Arrow more throttle, once I get over the refrigerators and into ground effect and ready to land I slowly pull the throttle to idle and adjust the nose as needed. Landings are usually decent, not butter smooth but not “clunk” either. Also depends on whether you are using flaps or not, wind conditions (more speed) and weight (passengers?) and temperature (hot or cold).

But I’m sure one day I’ll understand what and why the instructor was saying what he was saying. Just hasn’t clicked yet.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Later on when transitioning to other aircraft, he will see that no one size fits all when it comes to landing and managing power on approach and landing.

Maybe, but I haven’t flown the size that power or thrust idle when the runway is made doesn’t fit.

Some people I’ve flown with disagree, but one of them bent the nose gear on a jet proving it.

 

[N1120A]

For all the debate on what is the "best" technique, I think people forget something - just as each individual airplane is rigged a bit differently, so is each individual pilot. Different grip strength, different eye/hand/foot coordination, different bodyweight affecting trim.

I definitely land a Tiger or Cirrus (they land very similarly) differently to how I land a Bonanza. An Arrow is different from any of those. A 182 is different still. I refuse to fly a 172, but those are different too.

It is like people who don't use full flaps in a crosswind - many instructors teach that, including mine. I told him I liked it better and he couldn't argue with the results (I was AWFUL at crosswinds for my first 20 or so hours - now most folks think I'm pretty good). The DPE, who did a stage check with me before I soloed and recommended I only get endorsed with a 2 knot XW component, was shocked and impressed when my final landing on my checkride has a 12 knot crosswind (in an Archer) and I landed perfectly.

I have 500+ hours in a Hershey Bar Arrow. I always make that joke, but afterwards I always apologize to all the safe manufacturers out there whose product has a better glide ratio. Of the planes I have flown, the Arrow is the lightest one that likes some power down to the runway. But I also did my commercial in it and it handled power-off 180s just fine.

They actually glide just fine...with the gear up ;-). That's why they got rid of the automatic gear system.

I wish I had a Lance

1.5 years after getting the Arrow, half of my landings are still mild plunkers. Nothing gear-bending, but not all greasers, either. Yes, you heard it here first... a pilot who doesn't claim to grease every landing. Someone should probably come take away my cert now.

I have about 120 hours in Arrows and did my instrument in one. They can be greased, but it takes some time to figure out. They definitely like a little residual power though.

When I get a Lance LOL!

Kidding... we go out there a couple times a year to visit my wife's dad. He is up in Payson... we fly to PHX rent a car and drive up through the mountains.

Ya know there's an airport there ;-)

 

[Warmi]

Unless it is gusty or otherwise unstable, I feel a bit disappointed if I have to add power back past abeam the numbers …

 

[Deelee]

They can be greased, but it takes some time to figure out

For sure. Half of the time I do butter it in. But with the Arrow... mine anyway, there isn't much middle ground between "are we actually on the ground?" and a nice mild thudder... "that was..... a landing."

Ya know there's an airport there ;-)

I sure do. We like to eat at the little cafe there. Unfortunately, it is 1,649 nm away from my home airport. In le Arrow, I would need to stop once or twice for gas. And sleep. And to let my wife and kid out at the nearest airport offering commercial service.

 

[Grum.Man]

Throttle to idle abeam the numbers on downwind in anything other than a high performance airplane

 

[nauga]

"When to pull throttle idle on landing?"
"When to pull throttle idle? On landing."

For me it depends on the airplane, the location, the conditions, and how badly I've buggered up my pattern but it's generally somewhere between abeam the numbers to crossing the numbers. If I'm doing a S-H midfield break it might halfway down the runway on the upwind leg

Nauga,
and his pal Max Grunt

 

[Brad W]

to the advice of not arguing with your CFI.... my guess is that it was a debate or similar.....
and I'll differ with those that say not to do it. Picking apart a topic is a great way to have better understanding....and often the teacher will learn in some ways too.....even if they are correct, they might learn a better way to teach it.

For all the debate on what is the "best" technique, I think people forget something - just as each individual airplane is rigged a bit differently, so is each individual pilot. Different grip strength, different eye/hand/foot coordination, different bodyweight affecting trim.

this is something I think about a lot and I think you make a great point. What works for one person doesn't always work for another...that can be a technique, a teaching method, etc... One place I have considered this a lot is driving. That young punk that's driving like a maniac.... they most likely have better vision, better reflexes, better balance than the person calling him a young punk. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the sterotypical lady with blue hair sitting low behind the wheel going far too slow.... they are probably operating to their abilty, their vision, balance, memory, and so on.

I think that we all tend to find our own level of ability...( but that's not to say that the youngster might be using poor judgement, etc.)

 

[N1120A]

to the advice of not arguing with your CFI.... my guess is that it was a debate or similar.....
and I'll differ with those that say not to do it. Picking apart a topic is a great way to have better understanding....and often the teacher will learn in some ways too.....even if they are correct, they might learn a better way to teach it.


this is something I think about a lot and I think you make a great point. What works for one person doesn't always work for another...that can be a technique, a teaching method, etc... One place I have considered this a lot is driving. That young punk that's driving like a maniac.... they most likely have better vision, better reflexes, better balance than the person calling him a young punk. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the sterotypical lady with blue hair sitting low behind the wheel going far too slow.... they are probably operating to their abilty, their vision, balance, memory, and so on.

I think that we all tend to find our own level of ability...( but that's not to say that the youngster might be using poor judgement, etc.)

With airplanes, obviously with the exception of a very busy pattern, the nature of flight generally attracts less of the "maniac" side. Everyone, except maybe social media stunt clowns, wants to land the airplane safe and in good working order. How we get there might vary a bit.

 

[TommyG]

I wish I lived in a world where you idle abeam the numbers guy fly. It’s a great theory until your extending downwind, told to do 360 on extended downwind, S turns on final, told to keep the speed up on final due to jet traffic, which if you can’t you get to go around and be number 8 for landing again.

 

[eman1200]

some planes don't even have throttles

 

[Lindberg]

I wish I lived in a world where you idle abeam the numbers guy fly. It’s a great theory until your extending downwind, told to do 360 on extended downwind, S turns on final, told to keep the speed up on final due to jet traffic, which if you can’t you get to go around and be number 8 for landing again.

I avoid flying where I need permission to land, and I go throttle to idle abeam the numbers, short approach, touchdown, and off the runway before that jet makes it to short final.

If you don't have that luxury, you adjust. But if you can make good landings pulling power on downwind and doing the needful, you can make good landings with a little power when warranted. The reverse isn't necessarily true.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

I wish I lived in a world where you idle abeam the numbers guy fly. It’s a great theory until your extending downwind, told to do 360 on extended downwind, S turns on final, told to keep the speed up on final due to jet traffic, which if you can’t you get to go around and be number 8 for landing again.

It don't always be like that, but some days it do.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

30-50 feet depending.

 

[Clip4]

There is a lot missing from the OP. He could be consistently low over the threshold, or consistently 10 knots fast, or consistently high.

Hopefully his CFI isn’t telling him to close the throttle if he is low.

 

[TCABM]

I wish I lived in a world where you idle abeam the numbers guy fly. It’s a great theory until your extending downwind, told to do 360 on extended downwind, S turns on final, told to keep the speed up on final due to jet traffic, which if you can’t you get to go around and be number 8 for landing again.

Has every experiment ended the same way? Or taken the same path to get to the repeatable result?

Nothing in the experiment demands you stop being the pilot.

 

[Walboy]

The DPE, who did a stage check with me before I soloed and recommended I only get endorsed with a 2 knot XW component

2 knots? that a typo?

 

[PaulS]

Hopefully his CFI isn’t telling him to close the throttle if he is low.

"over the threshold" , if you are over the threshold, you are over the runway, you are low, might as well land it.

 

[Half Fast]

Sometimes it’s just a miscommunication.

At first my CFI told me to go to idle “once a safe landing is assured.” Consequently, I left the power in until we were in front of the hangar. That’s when he changed it to “once it’s certain you’ll reach the runway.”

 

[SkyChaser]

Sometimes it’s just a miscommunication.

At first my CFI told me to go to idle “once a safe landing is assured.” Consequently, I left the power in until we were in front of the hangar. That’s when he changed it to “once it’s certain you’ll reach the runway.”

Kinda like this, just pulling the power before you go in???

 

[Racerx]

As many have said, it depends. I was taught once abeam reduce throttle, add flaps, start descent. I'll add throttle depending on how much I screw up from there.

Cut to idle once abeam in a Cherokee Six, not sure you've got the energy to make the runway in a normal pattern. She likes a little power.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Yup, you have to trust your instructor implicitly, especially during primary training.

That's generally good advice, but the student should also be reading the POH and the textbooks to be sure he's getting the right stuff. There are too many instructors who are teaching wrong techniques that they picked up in their training, and some have even developed their own bad habits that they pass on to their students. I saw plenty of evidence of that when I was an instructor.

If there is no "anchor," some solid source of truth in training, students will pick up all sorts of debilitating habits. And it's getting worse all the time as reading skills have deteriorated in the age of TV and computers. Kids watch movies or play video games instead of reading. And some even watch YouTube videos made by private pilots, teaching flying. Ugh. The dissemination of misinformation.

 

[Dan Thomas]

That young punk that's driving like a maniac.... they most likely have better vision, better reflexes, better balance than the person calling him a young punk.

I found those to be the most dangerous students. They damaged airplanes. They have anti-authority attitudes, and attitudes like that in aviation are killers. I don't care how good his reflexes or vision are; if he can't see the danger in messing around he's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Dan Thomas]

"over the threshold" , if you are over the threshold, you are over the runway, you are low, might as well land it.

The student should not be allowed to develop a habit of dragging it in. Let him do that a few times and he'll do it all the time, and when it comes to landing over an obstacle he'll not be able to do it. Or if that engine coughs when he adds a bit of power to reach that runway, he might just land short and bust the airplane.