IP's - PLEASE pay attention to your location when making radio calls!

K

k9medic

Line Up and Wait
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ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
I flew into an airport the other day and for fun decided to fly the RNAV into the airport. There was a little bit of traffic at the airport working the pattern but nothing crazy.

As I announced that I was inbound on the RNAV approach a twin trainer called me and asked where I was on the approach. I told them I was passing the FAF inbound and they replied that they were at the IAF (6.1nm miles behind me.) As I continued on the approach, I made the appropriate calls referencing my distance to the airport. Unfortunately, this greatly confused the training aircraft as they thought they we on a collision course with me.

When I called out a 3nm final, the training aircraft said that they too were also 3nm's out! Looking at their ADSB position, they were now almost 8nm behind me (my approach speed was 140kts.) so I landed uneventfully.

The training twin called short final moments after I touched down (not sure how an Aztec made up those 11 miles so quick) so as I taxied to the hangar I glanced at my ADSB yet again. Here they were, 4nm from the runway.

By the time they touched down, I was turning off to go to my hangar. Based upon the radio calls, I believe that they were reading the GPS distances to the waypoints on the approach instead of (what they thought they were referencing) which was the runway.

The issue with this is that there were 3 other aircraft that extended their downwind legs to allow the twin to land based upon the incorrect radio calls.

I'm far from skyking (but I was in a twin cessna) but we owe it to the baby aviators and professionals alike that are out there to at least know where in the heck we are in the airspace!
 
k9medic said:
...The issue with this is that there were 3 other aircraft that extended their downwind legs to allow the twin to land based upon the incorrect radio calls...
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If I understand your post correctly, you were both performing GPS approaches at an uncontrolled airport down to runway height with 3 other aircraft in the pattern, requiring them to extend their downwind. Since the conditions are VFR, my understanding is that the proper procedure is for both IFR (or simulated) aircraft are to revert to VFR at pattern height and join the other 3 VFR airplanes. IFR does not have priority over VFR when landing at an uncontrolled airport.

As for the other aircraft, I would make note of the the aircraft call sign, day/time, and make a phone call to the owner or training unit to let them know what happened. A teachable moment for the Aztec.
 
While we were both flying the RNAV, the first of the 3 planes did not come into the pattern until I was on a short final. When I touched down the first plane called they were extending.

The 3 planes (total) extended due to the other aircraft’s radio calls.

In my opinion, 2 of those planes could have done their touch and go’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I would add that a “short final” call is another indication that the pilot is lost.
 
k9medic said:
While we were both flying the RNAV, the first of the 3 planes did not come into the pattern until I was on a short final. When I touched down the first plane called they were extending.

The 3 planes (total) extended due to the other aircraft’s radio calls.

In my opinion, 2 of those planes could have done their touch and go’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

And the guy in the downwind did what courteous pilots do, extended to help the guy, who unfortunately was screwing up his calls, out.

Fortunately I haven't run into any of this territorial crap about rules and patterns while flying. When there is a potential conflict in the pattern, everyone involved tries to figure it out and work together as it should be.
 
k9medic said:
I flew into an airport the other day and for fun decided to fly the RNAV into the airport. There was a little bit of traffic at the airport working the pattern but nothing crazy.

As I announced that I was inbound on the RNAV approach a twin trainer called me and asked where I was on the approach. I told them I was passing the FAF inbound and they replied that they were at the IAF (6.1nm miles behind me.) As I continued on the approach, I made the appropriate calls referencing my distance to the airport. Unfortunately, this greatly confused the training aircraft as they thought they we on a collision course with me.

When I called out a 3nm final, the training aircraft said that they too were also 3nm's out! Looking at their ADSB position, they were now almost 8nm behind me (my approach speed was 140kts.) so I landed uneventfully.

The training twin called short final moments after I touched down (not sure how an Aztec made up those 11 miles so quick) so as I taxied to the hangar I glanced at my ADSB yet again. Here they were, 4nm from the runway.

By the time they touched down, I was turning off to go to my hangar. Based upon the radio calls, I believe that they were reading the GPS distances to the waypoints on the approach instead of (what they thought they were referencing) which was the runway.

The issue with this is that there were 3 other aircraft that extended their downwind legs to allow the twin to land based upon the incorrect radio calls.

I'm far from skyking (but I was in a twin cessna) but we owe it to the baby aviators and professionals alike that are out there to at least know where in the heck we are in the airspace!
Click to expand...

Your assessment sounds correct - they probably were looking at the distance to their next waypoint rather than the airport. In such cases, if time permit, there is nothing wrong with saying "Aztec on final, my ADSB is showing you on a 11 mile final. I just want to double check", or something like that. People make mistakes. Unless there was an egregious violation, there is no need to make an issue out of it.
 
OMG! Someone made a mistake?!?! And you all lived? Whew!

/sarasm
 
When I’m doing practice approaches I refrain from mentioning my position relative to the approach waypoints - they generally mean nothing to the pattern people. I’m 8 miles north inbound. When I get to pattern altitude I’m just another inbound VFR plane looking to enter the pattern on a 2 to 3 mile final. And if there is other traffic in the pattern, I break it off and join the traffic in some appropriate way or simple move on to another airport.

, I’m listening to approach so If there’s real IFR traffic on a clearance, I may reference my position on the approach but often I’ll just remain clear and yield.


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Similar to @Bill Watson , once I'm established on the inbound I just call out how far out I am every few miles.

"...7 mile straight in final, pea patch"
 
when doing approaches, eman uses an iphone for the approach plate but a tablet for 'direct to airport' so I know exact distances to the rwy so I can make the appropriate calls. I remember being a lowly PPL and not understanding IR radio calls so I make sure to speak PPL on practice approaches. also, my philosophy is some people don't like straight ins, but they don't care about practice approaches, so I'll say something like "6 mile final, practice rnav approach". you can just hear the other pilots' thoughts........."oh what a doosh, doing a long straight in.........oh wait, it's a practice approach, ok no prob" lol.
 
eman1200 said:
also, my philosophy is some people don't like straight ins, but they don't care about practice approaches, so I'll say something like "6 mile final, practice rnav approach". you can just hear the other pilots' thoughts........."oh what a doosh, doing a long straight in.........oh wait, it's a practice approach, ok no prob" lol.
Click to expand...

Interesting point to consider, thanks (e)man!
 
Had a Cessna 172 call 10 mile final for 27 when I was 5 miles out. Then 5 mile final. Took FOREVER. Looking at his adsb track, he came from the northwest and entered a regular downwind. He meant 10 miles out, not final. School plane. Tighten it up!
 
When I hear an instrument pilot using a fix to report his position on a vfr day, I say, "I have no idea where that is, please give me a direction and distance." I've only had to do that a couple times.
 
k9medic said:
In my opinion, 2 of those planes could have done their touch and go’s.
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"could have" implies doubt about the successful outcome. It's not a phrase I like to hear when I'm flying.
 
Bill said:
Similar to @Bill Watson , once I'm established on the inbound I just call out how far out I am every few miles.

"...7 mile straight in final, pea patch"
Click to expand...

If you can, calling time might be more relevant to a pilot in the pattern. 10 miles out in a Warrior is very different than 10 miles out in a Citation. But saying you're 8 minutes out or 2 minutes out is more helpful.
 
PaulS said:
When I hear an instrument pilot using a fix to report his position on a vfr day, I say, "I have no idea where that is, please give me a direction and distance." I've only had to do that a couple times.
Click to expand...
I've done the same. Have yet to get a response.
 
If practicing IFR approaches in VFR, you need to have two GPS units running like eman said. This episode reinforces that procedure. :)
 
k9medic said:
...I believe that they were reading the GPS distances to the waypoints on the approach instead of (what they thought they were referencing) which was the runway....
Click to expand...

I've seen this before. That's probably exactly what was going on. Cross filling the flight plan from ForeFlight to your IFR navigator, you got to remember to use the "Distance to Destination" field in ForeFlight for your advisory calls. What's really funny is flying VFR and using the "pattern entry" procedure in Foreflight and forgetting this.
 
wilkersk said:
I've seen this before. That's probably exactly what was going on. Cross filling the flight plan from ForeFlight to your IFR navigator, you got to remember to use the "Distance to Destination" field in ForeFlight for your advisory calls. What's really funny is flying VFR and using the "pattern entry" procedure in Foreflight and forgetting this.
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“I’ve got a <insert favorite electronic gizzy name>, and it does everything, so I don’t have to worry about it!” is far too common, especially when you have to understand what the gizzy is doing.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“I’ve got a <insert favorite electronic gizzy name>, and it does everything, so I don’t have to worry about it!” is far too common, especially when you have to understand what the gizzy is doing.
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Capture.JPG

I dunno, I do a quick approximate add up of the little numbers in the profile view. Inbound at KAYAC, call a 12mi final. Pass HWSEE, call a 5 1/2 mile final, etc. No gizzing electronics needed.
 
k9medic said:
I flew into an airport the other day and for fun decided to fly the RNAV into the airport. There was a little bit of traffic at the airport working the pattern but nothing crazy.

As I announced that I was inbound on the RNAV approach a twin trainer called me and asked where I was on the approach. I told them I was passing the FAF inbound and they replied that they were at the IAF (6.1nm miles behind me.) As I continued on the approach, I made the appropriate calls referencing my distance to the airport. Unfortunately, this greatly confused the training aircraft as they thought they we on a collision course with me.

When I called out a 3nm final, the training aircraft said that they too were also 3nm's out! Looking at their ADSB position, they were now almost 8nm behind me (my approach speed was 140kts.) so I landed uneventfully.

The training twin called short final moments after I touched down (not sure how an Aztec made up those 11 miles so quick) so as I taxied to the hangar I glanced at my ADSB yet again. Here they were, 4nm from the runway.

By the time they touched down, I was turning off to go to my hangar. Based upon the radio calls, I believe that they were reading the GPS distances to the waypoints on the approach instead of (what they thought they were referencing) which was the runway.

The issue with this is that there were 3 other aircraft that extended their downwind legs to allow the twin to land based upon the incorrect radio calls.

I'm far from skyking (but I was in a twin cessna) but we owe it to the baby aviators and professionals alike that are out there to at least know where in the heck we are in the airspace!
Click to expand...

Yes, it is important to determine the proper location. You choose a web forum location to grip about a local safety issue instead of calling the flight school location and to have a friendly discussion to address the problem.

You are as lost as the other IP.
 
Assume much?

Perhaps this post will serve as a reminder to other folks out there. As you can tell by the discussion this has been an issue for others too.




Thank you for your commentary though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
I once traded position calls with another aircraft as we both approached an uncontrolled airport. Would have been more useful if he had been at the correct airport.

Tim
 
k9medic said:
Assume much?

Perhaps this post will serve as a reminder to other folks out there. As you can tell by the discussion this has been an issue for others too.




Thank you for your commentary though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Your message was addressed to “IPs”. If we have one or our ranks screwing up a public service announcement isn’t the most effective way to handle it.
 
Clip4 said:
Your message was addressed to “IPs”. If we have one or our ranks screwing up a public service announcement isn’t the most effective way to handle it.
Click to expand...

Yep, this was directed mainly towards the IP's. Public service announcements seems to work well for the FAA when one "in our ranks messes up", so why not here too?

If you can't/won't correct your student, or you don't know where you are then that is a bit of a problem. It would appear that others here agree.
 
k9medic said:
Yep, this was directed mainly towards the IP's. Public service announcements seems to work well for the FAA when one "in our ranks messes up", so why not here too?

If you can't/won't correct your student, or you don't know where you are then that is a bit of a problem. It would appear that others here agree.
Click to expand...

But it would take the FAA another 2 years.
 
Bill said:
View attachment 102446

I dunno, I do a quick approximate add up of the little numbers in the profile view. Inbound at KAYAC, call a 12mi final. Pass HWSEE, call a 5 1/2 mile final, etc. No gizzing electronics needed.
Click to expand...
Or you could be 3 miles from HWSEE and call an 8 1/2 mile final (or even an 8 mile final…at that point, who cares about a half mile one way or the other). But any of that requires rubbing two brain cells together. Far too many people refuse to do that…they see 3 miles on the GPS, but they don’t know or care what that 3 miles is from. They’ve got a gizzy that takes care of all that.
 
eman1200 said:
you can just hear the other pilots' thoughts........."oh what a doosh, doing a long straight in.........oh wait, it's a practice approach, ok no prob" lol.
Click to expand...
LOL
 
k9medic said:
Yep, this was directed mainly towards the IP's. Public service announcements seems to work well for the FAA when one "in our ranks messes up", so why not here too?

If you can't/won't correct your student, or you don't know where you are then that is a bit of a problem. It would appear that others here agree.
Click to expand...
What's an "IP"?
 
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