Who gets use of their IFR ticket in the mountains?

[AA5Bman]

I'd really like to hear from anyone that is based in the mountain west and flies a non-FIKI, non-turbo plane (or at least non-FIKI) about how they make use of their IFR ticket. What are the scenarios where you find it useful? As I mentioned in another thread recently, I'm IFR rated but haven't used it much at all, and the reason is that I can't figure out what to do with it in the mountains where I'm based.

I'd love some real world examples from people that live and use their IFR ticket in the mountain west that get some use of their IFR rating in basic GA aircraft. What does it allow you to do that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do, and what extra precautions do you take?

 

[idahoflier]

Your situation is the main reason I don't fly IFR...

 

[midlifeflyer]

You might not find too much use for it. First of all, if you are talking about the Colorado Rockies, there's only about 3 weeks in late spring when there might be flyable IMC to begin with. Second of all, western mountain flight has unique risks, a large part of which is the lack of a viable excess altitude option for normally-aspirated piston aircraft. I can fly a Cessna 152 5,000' above the terrain in the east. The margins in the west are much tighter. Clouds add to that and there is a significant segment of mountain-savvy GA pilots who will simply not mix the two. I flew on an IFR flight plan in the Rockies between Denver and Grand Junction exactly three times in twenty years.

The first was in severe clear conditions and it was to see if I would get the routing I wanted and how the airplane would perform. It was a test case - if I had a reason to file IFR and the conditions led me to feel it was safe, could I in that airplane. Doesn't really count but I mentioned it to show how little I used it.

The second is the one I mentioned in your other thread - the trip to the west where I picked up IFR along the way. It was a fairly benign day during that 3-week late spring period. The forecast look acceptable for a VFR flight, although my read and knowledge of mountain weather led me to think there was the possibility of encountering instrument conditions enroute. So I has a plan. Fly VFR and fly higher than I normally did - pretty close to the MEA - so I could have flight following. If I encountered instrument conditions on the east side of the divide (while still going "uphill"), I'd divert. If I encountered them after the overall terrain began going downhill, I'd ask the controller I was already speaking to for a pop-up. It happened. I called. The clearance came. The strategy worked perfectly. [Well, sort of. In other threads I've alluded to an in-flight emergency in the clouds over the Rockies. This was the trip. It was not related to my pop-up strategy]

The third was not really IFR in the mountains but yo asked when it can be useful. I was returning to Denver from business in Grand Junction. Nice weather. Nice VFR flight. Approaching Rollins (Corona) Pass, I listened to the ATIS at my home base (days before FIS-B) as early as I could (my SOP in any flight).I was severe clear but just over the pass, the Denver area was socked in. So I called Center and picked up a clearance to get home.

There were a few other in the Front Range (non-mountain) and some in the lower ranges to the south. There were also other flights with the same pick it up enroute if needed strategy where I didn't need to. If I have a point to all this, I guess it is that, even if you do't use it all the time, it's a great tool to have in one's toolbox.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Keep in mind that, just like the question about a clearance below IFR altitudes, the answer you seek may not exist.

the instrument rating is normally sold (and I used that word intentionally-someone makes money off of you getting the rating) as making your flying more useful. It doesn’t always, even in flat country. If I counted it up, I’d probably find well over 100 hours in my logbook where IFR was not viable for various reasons, but VFR was. Not only for personal flying, but professional as well.

 

[sarangan]

You might not find too much use for it. First of all, if you are talking about the Colorado Rockies, there's only about 3 weeks in late spring when there might be flyable IMC to begin with. Second of all, western mountain flight has unique risks, a large part of which is the lack of a viable excess altitude option for normally-aspirated piston aircraft. I can fly a Cessna 152 5,000' above the terrain in the east. The margins in the west are much tighter. Clouds add to that and there is a significant segment of mountain-savvy GA pilots who will simply not mix the two. I flew on an IFR flight plan in the Rockies between Denver and Grand Junction exactly three times in twenty years.

The first was in severe clear conditions and it was to see if I would get the routing I wanted and how the airplane would perform. It was a test case - if I had a reason to file IFR and the conditions led me to feel it was safe, could I in that airplane. Doesn't really count but I mentioned it to show how little I used it.

The second is the one I mentioned in your other thread - the trip to the west where I picked up IFR along the way. It was a fairly benign day during that 3-week late spring period. The forecast look acceptable for a VFR flight, although my read and knowledge of mountain weather led me to think there was the possibility of encountering instrument conditions enroute. So I has a plan. Fly VFR and fly higher than I normally did - pretty close to the MEA - so I could have flight following. If I encountered instrument conditions on the east side of the divide (while still going "uphill"), I'd divert. If I encountered them after the overall terrain began going downhill, I'd ask the controller I was already speaking to for a pop-up. It happened. I called. The clearance came. The strategy worked perfectly. [Well, sort of. In other threads I've alluded to an in-flight emergency in the clouds over the Rockies. This was the trip. It was not related to my pop-up strategy]

The third was not really IFR in the mountains but yo asked when it can be useful. I was returning to Denver from business in Grand Junction. Nice weather. Nice VFR flight. Approaching Rollins (Corona) Pass, I listened to the ATIS at my home base (days before FIS-B) as early as I could (my SOP in any flight).I was severe clear but just over the pass, the Denver area was socked in. So I called Center and picked up a clearance to get home.

There were a few other in the Front Range (non-mountain) and some in the lower ranges to the south. There were also other flights with the same pick it up enroute if needed strategy where I didn't need to. If I have a point to all this, I guess it is that, even if you do't use it all the time, it's a great tool to have in one's toolbox.

I would concur with this statement. It is rare to have flyable IMC in the Rocky mountains. However, there are still many areas that are relatively flat. With an IFR rating, you can operate more professionally, even if flying under VFR with flight following.

 

[Heftiger]

I’m not yet IFR rated. But pilots around here usually use it when they can depart VFR and fly over the mountains VFR, but the valley is socked in with fog or haze. That’s going to be my use case when I get it.

 

[bobmrg]

I have flown normally aspirated piston singles from Seattle to Denver, so I guess that constitutes flying in the Rockies. That was a one-time ferry trip. Flying NA singles over the Cascades to Eastern Washington and beyond was routine. What is the question?

Bob

 

[Rgbeard]

I live in Phx and Ensenada, Mexico.

I often criss-cross mountainous terrain, and have done plenty of it IMC.

I got my ticket, and hone my skills to add predictability to my travel.

 

[murphey]

Rule of thumb in the Rockies for our little spam cans.....
1) Be on your home side of the mountains before dark. Otherwise land and find a place to sleep for the night.
2) No night flights over the mountains
3) Can you really climb to the MEAs? otherwise, no IFR in IMC. IFR in daytime VMC if you can get up there.
4) Be at least 10% below gross weight
5) Have warm clothes handy, even in the summer.

 

[AA5Bman]

But what’s the point of IFR in VMC?

My question is really getting at how does the IFR ticket expand your capabilities, if at all, when you’re based at a higher elevation airport?

I’ve thought a lot about this and have a lot of mountain experience - just trying to see if I’m missing some opportunities.

 

[Eldorado]

I rarely or never fly hard IFR(low temps or convective weather) in the mountains, but departing IFR to get to better weather on the other side of the mountain, flying in and out of clouds at the MEA, picking up a clearance entoute or picking up a clearance for an approach is not all that uncommon. Many a pleasant VFR trip would not of been possible without an IFR ticket, and many a VFR cross country I would not of attempted without the IFR backup. I would never fly in the mountains IFR in convective weather, low temps, at night, but 30minutes of mild IFR might be all I need to,start or complete a 1400 nm trip from SE NM to pacific NW.

 

[Bill Watson]

I rarely or never fly hard IFR(low temps or convective weather) in the mountains, but departing IFR to get to better weather on the other side of the mountain, flying in and out of clouds at the MEA, picking up a clearance entoute or picking up a clearance for an approach is not all that uncommon. Many a pleasant VFR trip would not of been possible without an IFR ticket, and many a VFR cross country I would not of attempted without the IFR backup. I would never fly in the mountains IFR in convective weather, low temps, at night, but 30minutes of mild IFR might be all I need to,start or complete a 1400 nm trip from SE NM to pacific NW.

I live in NC and “I rarely or never fly hard IFR (low temps or convective weather)” basically applies to much of my flying east of the Mississippi. Well almost. I fly around convective wx almost every flight but rarely penetrate a convective cloud. And I get the difference between eastern and western convective conditions having flown sailplanes chasing convective conditions across the country.

Point is that maintaining IFR currency in ‘normal’ pleasure transportation is difficult everywhere. Conditions that requires an instrument approach are rare if you aren’t flying something on a commercial schedule and can allow for a bit of flexibility. Ice definitely makes things more challenging but the rating gives you a chance when not having it just keeps you home.

Try flying IFR on every flight no matter the conditions. I realize that in the mountains you may have to cancel to perform some below MEA VFR stuff but do that as required. File every flight, punch through that 1,000 foot thick deck, stop flying around things you can safely fly through, make the once every 4 month instrument approach even if you could have slipped in anyway. Do that and you may find it the best way to travel.

I assume you are actually traveling somewhere, occasionally out of the mountains. Because if you aren’t, it’s hard to see the benefit. Light plane IFR enables better travel IMHO, even in the mountains.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[denverpilot]

But what’s the point of IFR in VMC?

My question is really getting at how does the IFR ticket expand your capabilities, if at all, when you’re based at a higher elevation airport?

I’ve thought a lot about this and have a lot of mountain experience - just trying to see if I’m missing some opportunities.

For me it came in handy if I wanted to GO somewhere else. Usually East.

The Midwest garbage clouds at all altitudes usually started somewhere not too far west of Wichita and lasted until the east coast.

 

[lancie00]

I don't fly in the mountains but I got my IFR to punch through those thin layers. Now that I have it, I DEFINITELY see the benefit. Not that I fly a lot of IMC but all of a sudden, I'm not worried about getting caught above a layer or weathered in on cross country. The biggest thing is it made me a more confident pilot. If I were you, I'd get it. My 2¢.

 

[geezer]

A trip through the "mountains" on the eastern part of the US.Leaving Washington DC, ceiling 3,000 feet, I could have flown VFR to Traverse City Michigan, sneaking through the passes of the Appalachian chain over the Interstate 70 highway, but that just may have turned out as the Koby Briant trip did. Instead, I filed IFR, climbed for a couple of minutes through the layer, and then cruised at 8,000 feet in severe clear and no wind problems. I flew a VOR approach to a small airport in Ohio, refueled and enjoyed the tail end of a pancake breakfast with a bunch of congenial local pilots, and filed again. 2 minutes in cloud, then severe clear to Traverse City, fly the ILS, and park the plane. Naturally, scud running under a mostly 3,000 foot ceiling would have been legal, with the possible exception of the passes on I 70, but that would have not been fun, nor particularly safe. My total actual instrument time on that trip was about 25 minutes, including the time I was simply illegally close to cloud, and not in them. The clouds in MI were just summer puffies, but why bother to find a clear place if you can simply drive right through them? A very relaxed flight, instead of continuous tension watching for the other guy under the clouds. Out in Colorado, the Victor airways gave me confidence that I was at a safe elevation, even though the MEA was much higher than my route.

 

[Rgbeard]

Appalachians are mountains?

 

[smv]

Appalachians are mountains?

To someone from Kansas, perhaps.

 

[schmookeeg]

I don't understand what mountains have to do with IFR at all. Are there never IMC conditions where you are based, OP? or is it predominantly icy when it's IFR out, so you can't usually launch?

IFR allows me to not think about routing, headings, which way the runway is pointed, etc. For unfamiliar destinations, I usually file. I find IFR to be less work overall, generally, but I'm usually doing long multi-hour flights.

MEAs I use are high. That means sometimes O2 and sometimes some climb planning (particularly for aggressive SIDs) to think about.

I am neither turbocharged nor de-iced. Icing for me is really about making sure I'm able to get above it or stay below it. If I don't manage either of those, to have a nice and broad VFR "out" that I can turn my sno-cone towards if I pooch the planning or execution.

I derive a certain satisfaction from an IFR flight "well flown". I like being a well-oiled cog in the intricate machinery of ATC, and snickering at those who more resembly monkey-wrenches with their amateurism. Sometimes those pilots I'm snickering at are flying 121. Oof.

If you don't like that sorta thing, well, I agree with your premise that it's not of much use to ya. I see nothing wrong with VFR-only flying one bit, it's a skill too.

When I was LA based, i still filed very often, even when it was VMC. I felt there was a slight "priority" given me in the busy SoCal airspace, and it was sorta nice to have a pre-agreed routing. TEC routes are awesome.

$0.02

 

[brcase]

I rarely or never fly hard IFR(low temps or convective weather) in the mountains, but departing IFR to get to better weather on the other side of the mountain, flying in and out of clouds at the MEA, picking up a clearance entoute or picking up a clearance for an approach is not all that uncommon. Many a pleasant VFR trip would not of been possible without an IFR ticket, and many a VFR cross country I would not of attempted without the IFR backup. I would never fly in the mountains IFR in convective weather, low temps, at night, but 30minutes of mild IFR might be all I need to,start or complete a 1400 nm trip from SE NM to pacific NW.

 

[aterpster]

Appalachians are mountains?

According to the FAA they are. (AIM 5-6-16)

 

[AA5Bman]

I don't understand what mountains have to do with IFR at all. Are there never IMC conditions where you are based, OP? or is it predominantly icy when it's IFR out, so you can't usually launch?

IFR allows me to not think about routing, headings, which way the runway is pointed, etc. For unfamiliar destinations, I usually file. I find IFR to be less work overall, generally, but I'm usually doing long multi-hour flights.

MEAs I use are high. That means sometimes O2 and sometimes some climb planning (particularly for aggressive SIDs) to think about.

I am neither turbocharged nor de-iced. Icing for me is really about making sure I'm able to get above it or stay below it. If I don't manage either of those, to have a nice and broad VFR "out" that I can turn my sno-cone towards if I pooch the planning or execution.

I derive a certain satisfaction from an IFR flight "well flown". I like being a well-oiled cog in the intricate machinery of ATC, and snickering at those who more resembly monkey-wrenches with their amateurism. Sometimes those pilots I'm snickering at are flying 121. Oof.

If you don't like that sorta thing, well, I agree with your premise that it's not of much use to ya. I see nothing wrong with VFR-only flying one bit, it's a skill too.

When I was LA based, i still filed very often, even when it was VMC. I felt there was a slight "priority" given me in the busy SoCal airspace, and it was sorta nice to have a pre-agreed routing. TEC routes are awesome.

$0.02

Like I said somewhere above, it’s not really the mountains themselves that causes the problem, but the high MEAs and therefore cold temps and icing. If you’re okay flying in the clouds in below freezing temps in a non-FIKI plane, then sure you’d do a lot more IFR flying in the mountains.

A couple for instances - for a route that I’m theoretically flying at the end of this month, the lowest MEA is over 12,000’. On another where there are almost always wet, coastal clouds, the MEAs are around 9,000, tops around 7,000, and freezing level around 4,000. Not sure what you do with that. Hence the question.

 

[Geosync]

Bottom line is that piston GA is not for real IMC- heavy winds, icing. No SEP that I can think of has FIKI on their TSDSs, for obvious reasons(but maybe Cirrus?) For the pure recreational pilot, an IFR rating is not necessary. But it is an added comfort due to the fact that you can file IFR and have a little more time to get clear of the weather and if you do fly into the clouds you know the procedure. That’s about it, over the West Mountains, if you do fly into real IMC regularly you’re pushing at least a modified FIKI piston or tprop. Far West it’s helpful because of the fog layer around 800 feet and occasional broken at 5-6k feet. No icing worry.

 

[Brad Z]

Appalachians are mountains?

Ha, ha. I know, right? There are literally hundreds of wrecked airplanes from Georgia to Maine whose pilots thought the same thing about the Seemingly harmless Appalachian ridges.

 

[aterpster]

Ha, ha. I know, right? There are literally hundreds of wrecked airplanes from Georgia to Maine whose pilots thought the same thing about the Seemingly harmless Appalachian ridges.

Yep. One mountain NE of KAVL is almost 7,000 feet. Any terrain close by an airport that is more than 1,000 feet, or so, higher than the airport, poses a CFIT risk.

 

[geezer]

As Brad Z said, the Appalachian chain is littered with wrecked planes.

With an IFR flight plan, the controller knows exactly where you are, and if you punch the IDENT button, key the mic and announce "MAYDAY", you are on the correct frequency for accurate, immediate response.

He does not need to ask how many souls on board, it is in the flight plan. He can give you the direction and distance to the nearest airport, and monitor your progress until below radar coverage.

IF you have enough altitude, but there are no airports in reach, he may give you direction and distance to the nearest town, so you will be near civilization when you break out of the clouds, and pick your road or field.

That happened to a friend, years ago, he landed in a cow pasture, walked to town, called to notify that he was safely down, and called an airport not too far away. They sent a mechanic to evaluate the engine, and agreed to remove it, rebuild it, and reinstall it. The mechanic then flew the plane out of the pasture and back to his airport. My friend went, checked all was well, and flew home.

The bases of the clouds were well above the valleys, but not above the mountain tops, so vectors to a valley was critical to the outcome.

Today, with all the wonderful features of modern GPS, we do not need such assistance, but it is still nice for someone to know you are going down, and where. The controller is your best friend for that. He also has direct line to rescue services, and you can get updated position reports to him via passing airliners as you go out of radio contact. If the landing works poorly, but you survive, you will be thrilled to hear sirens as they come hunting for you.

Filing IFR and flying is all about increasing your chances of surviving the trip, even if something goes wrong.

 

[smv]

Ha, ha. I know, right? There are literally hundreds of wrecked airplanes from Georgia to Maine whose pilots thought the same thing about the Seemingly harmless Appalachian ridges.

There are many more at the bottom of the ocean. Does that make the Pacific a mountain range?

 

[aterpster]

There are many more at the bottom of the ocean. Does that make the Pacific a mountain range?

Oceans are similar to Kansas in this respect. Something likely went wrong with the airplane to hit a Kansas farm or one of the oceans. Rising terrain, OTOH, has been known to eat airplanes that are functioning normally.

 

[smv]

Oceans are similar to Kansas in this respect. Something likely went wrong with the airplane to hit a Kansas farm or one of the oceans. Rising terrain, OTOH, has been known to eat airplanes that are functioning normally.

Touché

 

[s35pilot]

I'm not based in the mountains, but I've done instrument approaches into South Lake Tahoe and Truckee. The acceptable scenario for me is broken clouds (not solid IMC), temperatures not conducive to icing, no forecast icing, ceilings well above minimums.

 

[N1120A]

I'd really like to hear from anyone that is based in the mountain west and flies a non-FIKI, non-turbo plane (or at least non-FIKI) about how they make use of their IFR ticket. What are the scenarios where you find it useful? As I mentioned in another thread recently, I'm IFR rated but haven't used it much at all, and the reason is that I can't figure out what to do with it in the mountains where I'm based.

I'd love some real world examples from people that live and use their IFR ticket in the mountain west that get some use of their IFR rating in basic GA aircraft. What does it allow you to do that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do, and what extra precautions do you take?

There are many times where the "Mountain West" will be VFR, but my destination on the West Coast will be IFR or MVFR with no holes and plenty of lower terrain that is still dangerous. I use my IFR ticket constantly living in San Diego, and not just on days like today with safe, 5 degree C precip.

When I was LA based, i still filed very often, even when it was VMC. I felt there was a slight "priority" given me in the busy SoCal airspace, and it was sorta nice to have a pre-agreed routing. TEC routes are awesome.

Indeed, IFR can even expedite your way out of a busy airport, where the tower puts you ahead of VFRs due to your release time. The only delays I ever get are outbound from KSMO or the occasional 5 minute sit on a busy day at KSAN slowing down KMYF. Well, except today. We actually got flow into KSMO, but that is because LAX was East and KSMO was Northeast.

Bottom line is that piston GA is not for real IMC- heavy winds, icing. No SEP that I can think of has FIKI on their TSDSs, for obvious reasons(but maybe Cirrus?) For the pure recreational pilot, an IFR rating is not necessary. But it is an added comfort due to the fact that you can file IFR and have a little more time to get clear of the weather and if you do fly into the clouds you know the procedure. That’s about it, over the West Mountains, if you do fly into real IMC regularly you’re pushing at least a modified FIKI piston or tprop. Far West it’s helpful because of the fog layer around 800 feet and occasional broken at 5-6k feet. No icing worry.

Real IMC? We get plenty of "real IMC" here. Where you sit in never ending clouds from start to finish. Yes, we don't get much icing or convection, but it is definitely very real.

I'm not based in the mountains, but I've done instrument approaches into South Lake Tahoe and Truckee. The acceptable scenario for me is broken clouds (not solid IMC), temperatures not conducive to icing, no forecast icing, ceilings well above minimums.

This is a pretty good rule. I have a friend who flew to the Grand Canyon a couple months ago and made this point. Above a broken layer that was dry, even if it was cold. Shot an approach and wasn't scud running with the others.