Musk is an odd bird. The SEC was going to settle with him and he refused because just "not admitting guilt" wasn't good enough for him. He wanted to publicly claim he hadn't done anything wrong. The SEC says, fine, see ya in court.
Chevy Volt
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flyingcheesehead
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Just because they aren't overall profitable, does not mean that they aren't building and selling the car profitably. They've been investing insane amounts of money into growth, meaning the profits will be bigger later. It's the Amazon strategy. Amazon "didn't make a profit" for 15 years, investing it all in growth. Now they have all the money.
Tesla has a lot more competition than Amazon as well, at least in terms of cars in general. It's a smart strategy for them, because if they don't want to be stuck as a niche manufacturer, they do need to get into more markets (particularly SUVs cheaper than the Model X) before the traditional manufacturers corner the market. Slow and steady will not win this game.
No doubt, Tesla could be better at manufacturing, but they don't need to be owned by others to make that happen, they just need to make the right hires, and not try to reinvent the wheel. That's been their problem with the Model 3, and I think Elon has learned a lot from that. Make them with somewhat more traditional methods first, and once you've got them going, THEN you can start building the "alien juggernaut".
I really wonder what the initial settlement was. Clearly something in it wasn't palatable for Musk, so he pushed back, and now they've got a settlement again. Interesting.
SoonerAviator
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Long enough that the cops would be a problem.
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Right, I was just making the point that after a couple of consecutive 1/4 mile runs, the Tesla will go into protection mode, while the Vette will keep running them without issue (outside of reduced times due to heat soak). Also, I doubt a Tesla will be able to beat a Vette around an average road course even for one lap. The Tesla just isn’t built for that purpose, so it’s not really a pertinent comparison.
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Dav8or
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The only significant thing about this new settlement is, they have in theory silenced the random, late night tweets that get him in trouble. The rest of the settlement is a slap on the wrist IMO. I suspect the first settlement was going to also ban him as CEO, but that's just my speculation.
A fine and off the board for two years, if I recall. Apparently the first two he was fine with. He however, wanted to get up and tweet that he hadn't done anything wrong and the SEC wasn't going to go for that.
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Velocity173
Is this considered profitability? It’s my understanding that they haven’t made a buck yet.
https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/profit_margin
https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/profit_margin
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Musk, ever the optimist.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ose-to-profitability-musk-says-in-staff-email
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ose-to-profitability-musk-says-in-staff-email
tspear
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Timothy
The post was not about the company being profitable but if Tesla ever made money on any car. Tesla has yet to post the information to make such a determination. Tesla has invested billions which under SEC guidelines count against profit.
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FastEddieB
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Well, that settles that!
The market must like Musk being reined in...TSLA currently up of $43 a share!
The market must like Musk being reined in...TSLA currently up of $43 a share!
They wanted stability. The thing that was tanking was the fear that he would continue to tell the SEC to screw themselves.
Understand STOCK PRICE doesn't mean anything other than to those who hold the stock for the immediately short term. The next big sound you here is when Tesla finds itself unable to borrow anymore money. You can't use the "lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume" strategy forever.
Understand STOCK PRICE doesn't mean anything other than to those who hold the stock for the immediately short term. The next big sound you here is when Tesla finds itself unable to borrow anymore money. You can't use the "lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume" strategy forever.
FastEddieB
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I just got a news alert that General Motors is ceasing production of the Volt. Along with major - 15% - reduction in salaried staff.
Too bad. It was a nice car.
In any case, we decided on a Honda Clarity. That deserves it’s own thread.
Too bad. It was a nice car.
In any case, we decided on a Honda Clarity. That deserves it’s own thread.
flyingcheesehead
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Yep. They're closing the Hamtramck plant where it was produced.
That's really not a good thing for the overall EV market. The Volt still has really good electric range, plus the backup of having a gas engine. It was a really great option for those who couldn't make a purely electric vehicle work for their mission.
However, other manufacturers are moving in on that market, so they should fill the void. There's also been some speculation that there's a small crossover version of the Volt that might make an appearance... A Bolt PHEV perhaps?
It also sounds like this might simply be a bluff to try and get some concessions from the union. We'll see.
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I’ll still be able to keep my 2012 maintained for quite sometime. By the time she’s ready to trade in, hopefully they’ll be another affordable EV available that doesn’t look as cheap as current models.
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https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2018/nov/1126-gm.html
GM has not stopped producing the Volt quite yet (they will stage the shutdown and build out the final parts inventory in 2019), but I am a bit surprised at that announcement. I thought the plug-in hybrid approach was a good transition towards electrification of the light vehicle fleet in North America. We are NOT Europe. Although a larger percentage of our populations live in our cities than ever before, the USA and Canada are geographically vast countries with large distances between many population centers. And despite the promoting from Tesla aficionados, at the moment electric vehicles simply do not have the energy density/capacity to be practical for most people over those distances (so-called "Superchargers" notwithstanding).
But I suppose the customers have made the decision as the Volt must be selling in numbers that are too low to justify its continued existence. Does that mean the Bolt (despite its ridiculous name) is? Or is the Bolt merely a 2nd generation EV1 experiment on the way to the self-driving electric vehicle future GM envisions for itself?
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, in that sense Elon Musk should be feeling good today.
Maybe time for me to start looking for a 1970 C3 LT-1 for nostalgia's sake in my waning years...
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flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I heard something this morning saying that auto plants need to run at 80% of capacity to be profitable, and that Hamtramck was closer to 50 and Lordstown was down to 31!
Hopefully, GM has something up its sleeve to be produced in other plants. PHEVs are definitely important in the US, and the Volt and Fusion Energi both going away is bad.
tspear
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@GRG55 @flyingcheesehead
Small hybrids like the Volt are on the way out. They can no longer compete with pure EVs. They were largely sold as commuter cars and daily drivers; and EVs just have the range on them now. Further EV prices have dropped to the point the engineering complexity and manufacturing costs of a small hybrid just does not make a lot of sense.
Based on ads, I think Ford, Honda, Toyota, BMW, MB... all of them have been phasing out hybrids and moving to pure EV.
Tim
Small hybrids like the Volt are on the way out. They can no longer compete with pure EVs. They were largely sold as commuter cars and daily drivers; and EVs just have the range on them now. Further EV prices have dropped to the point the engineering complexity and manufacturing costs of a small hybrid just does not make a lot of sense.
Based on ads, I think Ford, Honda, Toyota, BMW, MB... all of them have been phasing out hybrids and moving to pure EV.
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Aztec Flyer
"...have the range on them now"?? Maybe @flyingcheesehead can weigh in here since he owns a Volt. My understanding is the hybrid is not limited by the range of the battery since it can be run indefinitely on gasoline and is not bound by having the battery be recharged from a fixed station. Do I misunderstand that difference between a hybrid and a pure EV? Sure seems I have seen a hell of a lot of Prius taxicabs in some cities when I fly in.
I do know that hybrids took a real knock when the Volkswagen et al diesel emissions scandal broke. Although the early hybrids (such as the Prius) were gasoline engine there had been a bunch of research into diesel hybrids (this includes BMW) to increase the fuel efficiency even further. That all seems to have come to a halt when the governments and their lawyers got small diesel engines into their gunsights.
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You are correct on the hybrid (I had the first Ford C-MAX in this area, 'cuz Prius slowness got me down!) But you get the weight of the gasoline drive train plus a battery plus electric motors and control systems, and the price of making a soup with all those bits. I sold the C-MAX 'cuz the task that I had of delivering time-sensitive documents vanished, and I moved in with my S/O to a place 4 miles from work, so I drive 3K miles a year. So I got a gas-guzzler.
Maybe @flyingcheesehead can weigh in here since he owns a Volt. My understanding is the hybrid is not limited by the range of the battery since it can be run indefinitely on gasoline and is not bound by having the battery be recharged from a fixed station. Do I misunderstand that difference between a hybrid and a pure EV?
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Maybe @flyingcheesehead can weigh in here since he owns a Volt. My understanding is the hybrid is not limited by the range of the battery since it can be run indefinitely on gasoline and is not bound by having the battery be recharged from a fixed station. Do I misunderstand that difference between a hybrid and a pure EV?
380 miles on my Volt, 420 for a Gen 2. About 240 miles for an all EV Bolt and about the same for a standard Model 3. Got them by initial range and on a XC I don’t have to 1) try and find an open charger and 2) wait while it charges. 5 minutes of fuel and hitting the highway again.
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Aztec Flyer
There has been a global overcapacity of auto manufacturing for decades. It is one of those industries that damn near every government that isn't sub-Saharan considers essential and strategic. So it enjoys subsidies, tax incentives, bailouts, direct government ownership, tariff protection and all sorts of other support. Nevertheless, seems GM (and Ford, who earlier announced it was moving out of passenger car production in favor of SUVs and trucks) is biting the bullet again and further reducing total assembly capacity with plans, as you say, to increase utilization rates in the remaining plants.
I think they're likely aggregating cash and figuring on consolidating electric car production at their once and future Fremont plant.
The Volt is a "tweener." It has more battery than a normal hybrid, but lacks the battery range of a modern EV. Chevy calls them "range-extended vehicles."
The advantage is I can go around town all the time on electric but I can hit the road to drive cross country without worrying about getting a charge. With the possible exception of the Tesla and their supercharge network, the rest of the pure-EV fleet is still useless for travel. A DC charger only charges at a rate of 3 miles/min. A regular L2 charger still takes ten hours to fully charge the Bolt.
The advantage is I can go around town all the time on electric but I can hit the road to drive cross country without worrying about getting a charge. With the possible exception of the Tesla and their supercharge network, the rest of the pure-EV fleet is still useless for travel. A DC charger only charges at a rate of 3 miles/min. A regular L2 charger still takes ten hours to fully charge the Bolt.
Grum.Man
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The problem with the Volt is two fold. It's not that it was a bad car, it's just that new normal gas cars have gotten so good and fuel efficient. The second problem is they tried too hard to make it mainstream. I mean let's be honest, it makes no financial sense to buy an electric or even a hybrid car. By the time you make up the difference in purchase price added maintenance cost will take over or it will be time for a new car. Most people who wanted something like the Volt wanted to do it to "save the earth". As good as their intentions may be they still want it to be known they are saving the earth by having a mildly funky car. They also expect to have a modern cool cockpit with fancy gauges and screens everywhere. If there is one area GM has fallen behind it's in the interior tech department.
The money for these canceled programs will likely go into making more efficient and hybrid CUVs as those are what is selling right now.
The money for these canceled programs will likely go into making more efficient and hybrid CUVs as those are what is selling right now.
What "added maintenance cost?" My volt has had less maintenance than the Chevy trucks (one Suburban and one Avalanche) it replaced.
Grum.Man
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Batteries don't last for ever.
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There’s a guy driving a 2012 Volt with over 400,000 miles and only about a %10 degradation in battery range. Very few batts have failed and they’re warranty is for 8 years / 100,000 miles.
I agree, you can’t make up the cost for a Volt if you were to compare it to say, a new Civic. No way I would have bought a new Volt when they came out at over $40K but now you can get used gen 1s really cheap. Can’t stand the looks of gen 2 so it was a win win for me. I save about $100 a month in gas over my Subaru and I have the redundancy of having a second vehicle.
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EppyGA
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How long before they make a move on Tesla?
Grum.Man
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Better than the Prius then. A friend runs a shop in town that makes a good living replacing Prius batteries.
Well, it appears from reading the trade press what is killing the Volt (and the other models axed by GM of late) is that the American market is going soft on compact sedans again.
Pilawt
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tspear
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Maybe @flyingcheesehead can weigh in here since he owns a Volt. My understanding is the hybrid is not limited by the range of the battery since it can be run indefinitely on gasoline and is not bound by having the battery be recharged from a fixed station. Do I misunderstand that difference between a hybrid and a pure EV? Sure seems I have seen a hell of a lot of Prius taxicabs in some cities when I fly in.
I do know that hybrids took a real knock when the Volkswagen et al diesel emissions scandal broke. Although the early hybrids (such as the Prius) were gasoline engine there had been a bunch of research into diesel hybrids (this includes BMW) to increase the fuel efficiency even further. That all seems to have come to a halt when the governments and their lawyers got small diesel engines into their gunsights.
Yup range. When Volt came out, GM made a big point of saying 80% of the driving public would never need to run the gas engine. The few EVs at the time, had paltry ranges like 80 miles (think Nissan Leaf); this was not enough to overcome range anxiety though. Now that EVs are pushing 150 miles for the Nissan Leaf or 200+ for the Chevy Bolt, same for other competitors, you are seeing less range anxiety by daily commuters. With the higher range now, you can often go a few days in case you forget to charge the car, or have to do an extra few errands in the evening. In fact, you are seeing posts which state it is great to never visit a gas station, the tank is full every morning, on and on...
Basically, the new higher range on EVs in the call it 30-40K market has eliminated a lot of the hybrid target market. They now have enough distance to remove the range anxiety for many buyers.
Tim
Lindberg
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How is this not theft of service?The there's this guy...
https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-pr...es-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-80cdbe55d68e
JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
All that, PLUS, most families have more than one car. If I buy an EV, we will just use our other car for longer trips.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
For us, a plug-in hybrid seemed the right choice.
We settled on a Honda Clarity, taking delivery a week ago. I’ll do a more complete “first impressions” thread later.
But the concept is great - roughly 48 miles on battery alone, backed up with 7 gals of gas that burns at a rate of about 40 mpg.
The other day I did our typical N GA to E TN trip - 96 miles. Filled up close to home, then topped off here. Starting with a fully charged battery, I burned 1.2 gals for the trip. Of course, the electricity to charge the battery was not free*, but it still felt good to use so little gas. Our Flex and Ridgeline would have each burned roughly 5 gals for the same trip.
The PHEV’s are probably just a stepping stone to an all-electric future. But the ability to have one car running as an EV for local errands, and as an efficient hybrid for longer hauls, has the flexibility we wanted.
As I said, stand by for a longer report on the Clarity.
Not a great photo, but here she is getting charged back up after running some errands today:
*Lots and lots of variables, but it appears that as gas gets to $2.00/gal, the cost benefit of running on electricity goes away.
We settled on a Honda Clarity, taking delivery a week ago. I’ll do a more complete “first impressions” thread later.
But the concept is great - roughly 48 miles on battery alone, backed up with 7 gals of gas that burns at a rate of about 40 mpg.
The other day I did our typical N GA to E TN trip - 96 miles. Filled up close to home, then topped off here. Starting with a fully charged battery, I burned 1.2 gals for the trip. Of course, the electricity to charge the battery was not free*, but it still felt good to use so little gas. Our Flex and Ridgeline would have each burned roughly 5 gals for the same trip.
The PHEV’s are probably just a stepping stone to an all-electric future. But the ability to have one car running as an EV for local errands, and as an efficient hybrid for longer hauls, has the flexibility we wanted.
As I said, stand by for a longer report on the Clarity.
Not a great photo, but here she is getting charged back up after running some errands today:
*Lots and lots of variables, but it appears that as gas gets to $2.00/gal, the cost benefit of running on electricity goes away.
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3393RP
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I understand you've been misled by the SEC's leniency (thus far, anyway) with Tesla, but it's against the law for public companies to make announcements that materially affect the stock price and earnings and then fail to carry them out.
GM stated the cutbacks will cost around $3.8 billion. The share price was up 4.8% today.
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Fremont was a friggin nightmare for GM. I was at the plant in 1977 and again in 1979. One of the consistently lowest quality plants in the GM stable, and some of the worst labor relations imaginable (second only to Lordstown at the time). Bringing in Toyota prolonged things, and although things got better, ultimately it wasn't enough.
Now the Bay Area is the most ridiculous high cost jurisdiction imaginable. Even the expensive, hand built Tesla can't overcome that. Why do you think Tesla is planning to expand production into China for the Asia region, and stuck its Gigafactory next door in Nevada?
Check the stock multiple and do the math. No other car company, not even BMW, can afford to buy Tesla without taking an immediate massive loss on its balance sheet. Tesla has to sell out to a company with a multiple bigger than its own, and even then I am not sure it can be sold to shareholders as accretive. That's why Musk keeps characterizing it as a "technology company".
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The Volt never struck me as a compact car. I thought it was quite a roomy and fairly large 5 passenger sedan?
flyingcheesehead
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Maybe - But most of the pure EVs that aren't from Tesla are really still just commuter cars. The appeal of the Volt is that it has relatively few compromises for someone looking for their first plug-in vehicle. You may not take road trips often, but most people don't want a car without the ability to.
A "hybrid" in the traditional sense, something like a Prius, has a small battery and electric motor that allow it to recapture some energy that would otherwise be lost to braking, and to run the engine in its most efficient range. However, it still gets all its power from gasoline, since you can't charge the battery except with the engine. The electric-only range on a hybrid is generally under a mile.
A plug-in hybrid (PHEV) like the Volt uses a larger battery and a combined gas-electric powertrain. It can travel for a certain distance, usually between 10-50 miles, on electric power alone before the gas engine turns on if needed to propel the car to its destination. Generally, once the battery is depleted it functions just like a normal hybrid, but the engine does not charge the battery all the way up - That's what you plug it in for. The total range is the sum of the electric range and the gas-powered range, and is generally several hundred miles like a "normal" car.
A "pure EV" or BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) has no engine whatsoever, getting its power strictly from electric motors. It will have the largest battery of the three categories, and a range of between 50 and 350 miles.
While the plug-in hybrids aren't limited by the range of the electric side of the powertrains, their electric range needs to at least cover your daily commute for it to be really worthwhile. That way, you'll be purely electric 90%+ of the time and only need to burn gas on longer trips.
Wait, what? Why would you get a gasser for a 4-mile commute? Such a short distance is pretty terrible on an engine, and ideal for even the cheapest of EVs.
If you're referring to NUMMI and insinuating that GM will buy Tesla... I doubt it. I don't think they can afford a hostile takeover, and Musk certainly isn't going to entertain a friendly one in the short term.
It would make more sense for Tesla to go with the other partner in NUMMI, Nissan, as they were the "teacher" in that relationship and the Japanese are well-known for their quality and attention to detail.
I will admit, that's one of the things I really liked about the Fusion Energi: It was just a normal car that happened to have a modern powertrain. But, now that I've gotten into EVs more, I don't really care so much about whether I fit in or stick out. In fact, I'm so sick of plain old silver/black/gray/white cars that I kinda want to have something a little different.
This OWT needs to be put to rest. It's very rare for an EV to need its battery changed. The batteries will likely outlast the rest of the car.
But, that still doesn't eliminate the large segment of the market that either doesn't want a purely electric vehicle yet or wants to use their car to travel.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
GM and Ford: "We're going to stop selling sedans, nobody wants them any more."
Tesla: <building sedans as fast as it possibly can> "What?!? Nobody wants YOUR sedans."