Landing tips

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Pnwannabe2

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I only have 19 landings in my logbook (and 11 hours), including the discovery flight and first few CFI demos. I probably only have 3-5 landings that I did without help.

Last week, on a completely calm day, I could not keep it together in the last 100-200 feet. I'm all lined up turning to final, looking good, last notch of flaps...then I can't seem to stay lined up. I either land with a side load or land 5-10 feet off center line. I tried changing my focus to the end of the runway on final, but then came in high and relinquished the controls for a slip demo.

Any tips you guys/gals can share? Am I over controlling? 172M if it matters. I'm able to nail most everything else we've worked on, but I can't land the plane, which I understand is an important maneuver...
 
I can only tell you what I do. Once on final I pick my landing spot, glue it to that place in the windscreen. I keep it there with pitch and power while maintaining proper airspeed. Honestly, you just don't have enough experience, it will come. As far as side load goes, while it is important to try to be on centerline, sometimes you just aren't, landing a little left or right is not a deal breaker except on the check ride.
 
Pnwannabe2 said:
....I tried changing my focus to the end of the runway on final,...
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this isn't something you do on final, it's somewhere in the round out/flare (people prob have different specific timing of when they do this but "on final" is way too early).

also, at 11 hours, just keep at it, it'll come to you eventually. sounds like you're right where you're supposed to be.
 
When I have a client who can't keep the aircraft on the centerline it is usually because they stay focused on their aiming point instead of looking all the way down the runway on round out.
 
Pnwannabe2 said:
I only have 19 landings in my logbook (and 11 hours),
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croo8F2.jpg





I'll quote myself from another post.

A truly good landing ain't just paint by numbers, try this out, it's worked for all my students with no exceptions

"Bring it in at vref, make sure the runway numbers don't move in your windscreen --> point of impact --> they move up you're too low, down you're too high.

Runway assured, pull the power

As you get low, as in a few feet, focus changes from the numbers to the infinity point, this is the point on the horizon (way way down the runway center line) that moves the least. Think of those paintings of roads with the power lines that go on forever, the the road just disappears into that point.

Keep looking at that point and try to hold the plane 1 inch off the runaway.

Bingo.


*Ailerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it point down the center line.

*The cowl position crap doesn't work when you change planes, just use good fundamentals.

*Remember a flare isn't something you do, it's a side effect of what I discussed above

*Pretend there is a ratchet on the yoke, once you pull it back you can't put it forward from that position, if it balloons a little just wait for her to settle down and add more back pressure or a lil power."



Side note, the 172 is a horrible trainer, far too forgiving and hides mistakes too well, if possible I'd swap over to a tailwheel or glider if available

Ether way, good luck and blue skies
 
I had similar problems early on.

One of my CFIs told me to focus on the end of the runway, too. Maybe it works for him, but I think it's more likely he wasn't aware of where he really looks. In any case, for me it was terrible advice.

It's difficult to get a good perspective when you're looking at a point a mile or more away. OTOH, if you look too close, the scene moves too fast and you over control. Something in between is needed.

For me, it works best to focus about 400 or 500 feet in front of the plane once I begin to round out and level off. I very consciously and deliberately shift my eyes to that distance. You'll have to find the point that works best for you, but it's probably not the end of the runway.

Also make sure you see over the cowling well. Adding a seat cushion made a big difference for me.
 
Pnwannabe2 said:
Last week, on a completely calm day, I could not keep it together in the last 100-200 feet. I'm all lined up turning to final, looking good, last notch of flaps...then I can't seem to stay lined up. I either land with a side load or land 5-10 feet off center line.
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Being able to coordinate rudder and aileron simultaneously is key and it only happens with experience.

Dedicate an entire lesson to takeoffs and landings. Keep at it, you'll get it.
 
I would not worry, and follow your instructor's advice.

If everything is fine up to your application on "the last notch of flaps", maybe ask if you can put them in sooner.

I mostly taught full flaps on final once the runway was made. Cirrus standardization taught full flaps on base.

I found I prefer that and do it that way in my Sky Arrow. One less configuration change on final makes the whole process a bit easier.

Anticipating objections, I fly my base in close enough and high enough to make the runway if the engine quit, even with full flaps.
 
In training I had trouble with a tendency to land left of center. Turns out for whatever reason I would apply left rudde during flare, no idea what caused me to do that. Once I managed to stop doing that I found the centerline again. Might be as simple as something small you don't realize you are doing.
 
19 ain't nothin. Think about the above advice, paint a picture in your head of what it's about and hang in there.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I think I might be trying to hard to keep the wings level and steering with rudder. Making small coordinated turns to stay lined up is probably what I need to focus on. My CFI has a teaching style that works great for me. He makes a lot of sense, but most lesson debriefs are "great flying today! Perfect job on x, y, z, but you gotta work on those landings, gotta stay lined up, gotta stop scrubbing rubber off the tires, etc". Made me wonder if I'm behind the curve. I feel better now, and realize how green I am. I'll get there eventually. Can't wait to fly next week and continue to improve.
 
FastEddieB said:
I would not worry, and follow your instructor's advice.

If everything is fine up to your application on "the last notch of flaps", maybe ask if you can put them in sooner.

I mostly taught full flaps on final once the runway was made. Cirrus standardization taught full flaps on base.

I found I prefer that and do it that way in my Sky Arrow. One less configuration change on final makes the whole process a bit easier.

Anticipating objections, I fly my base in close enough and high enough to make the runway if the engine quit, even with full flaps.
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You know, that makes so much sense, such a simple thing too. I'm gonna give that a try. I too fly a pretty tight pattern generally and when I turn final I put in the last notch as soon as I level off because I usually have the runway made.
 
200 more landings? But I want to be a super pilot of America now dammit!
 
Every landing is different. My advice would be to try to set the aircraft up the same way each time. Speed is critical, start your turns to base and final the same each landing. I've made some of my nicest landing with a strong crosswind and some of my worst landings with calm air. Stay focused, I like to look down the runway and try to keep it off the ground until the plane touches down.

Good luck and have fun..:)
 
TRocket said:
In training I had trouble with a tendency to land left of center.
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I taught my students to shift their view to the left side of the runway as the nose came up and blocked their view down the runway in the flare.

Human's bodies have a tendency to follow their eyes, so its natural to pull left when you look left. It's a reflex that gets overcome with practice.

Kershner on the topic:

34473529032_c4e28515fb_b.jpg
 
Speed control is key for landings. Learn to manage the key of power and pitch control. Also the site picture is helpful whether you are low or high wing. Another thing that helped me was to actually try not to land. Keep holding off until you are hearing stall horn before set it down.
 
FastEddieB said:
Perhaps not coincidentally, this echoes a lot of what Half Fast said above.
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No coincidence at all! Your advice was very helpful, Eddie, and greatly appreciated.

I did find, though, that 30-50 feet was too close for me to look, just as the end of the runway was much too far. A couple of hundred feet, more or less, seemed to be the sweet spot for me. This may be a little different for everyone.
 
luvflyin said:
19 ain't nothin. Think about the above advice, paint a picture in your head of what it's about and hang in there.
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LOL. After my first landing I told my instructor: "a hundred more and I'll be a bit more comfortable" and it was really funny later when I noticed I had a hundred landings and felt like I had a decent handle on it. Of course little did I know. I was still in the pitch up and hit the ground mode that many seem to go through. I could pitch up and hit the ground consistently...never missed but once or twice.
 
Pnwannabe2 said:
Thanks for all the replies. I think I might be trying to hard to keep the wings level and steering with rudder. Making small coordinated turns to stay lined up is probably what I need to focus on. My CFI has a teaching style that works great for me. He makes a lot of sense, but most lesson debriefs are "great flying today! Perfect job on x, y, z, but you gotta work on those landings, gotta stay lined up, gotta stop scrubbing rubber off the tires, etc". Made me wonder if I'm behind the curve. I feel better now, and realize how green I am. I'll get there eventually. Can't wait to fly next week and continue to improve.
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Yea, 19 landings isn't the time to worry. I had a lot of landings before my solo, but they were just the accumulation of 3 or 4 landings on the way back from the practice area. I still didn't feel that good about landings till we did a couple hours of just landings staying in the pattern, maybe 20 more landings over 2 or 3 hours and I was ready for solo.

What you said here about keeping your wings level and coordinated turns. I don't think on final would be the time to concentrate on either of those. If there is any sort of crosswind, your wings may not be level and thats fine. I wouldn't think you'd be using any 'coordinated turns' on final when you're basically trying to go straight, or slip. If you're slipping to land the ball won't be and shouldn't be centered.

One of the hardest things for me was figuring out what 'straight' is. In a car we don't have that concept, the car is always pointing ahead if you're moving. In the air 'straight' is arbitrary and you have to find it with the rudder. I tried to get behind the plane on the ground, see where its pointing(in the distance), then get in and look at that point and try to remember that site. Try to burn that view in as you're taxiing down a long straigh taxi way, what straight ahead looks like so you can put it there with the rudder later.

Maybe thats why you are burning rubber, you think you are straight but you may be slipping a bit.

$.02
 
Pnwannabe2 said:
I only have 19 landings in my logbook (and 11 hours), including the discovery flight and first few CFI demos. I probably only have 3-5 landings that I did without help.

Last week, on a completely calm day, I could not keep it together in the last 100-200 feet. I'm all lined up turning to final, looking good, last notch of flaps...then I can't seem to stay lined up. I either land with a side load or land 5-10 feet off center line. I tried changing my focus to the end of the runway on final, but then came in high and relinquished the controls for a slip demo.

Any tips you guys/gals can share? Am I over controlling? 172M if it matters. I'm able to nail most everything else we've worked on, but I can't land the plane, which I understand is an important maneuver...
Click to expand...

As you change the pitch, are you pulling straight back or allowing your wrist to rotate the control wheel to the left?
 
As of today, I have 204 hours and 283 landings. Four of those landings were today, plus a go-around when I realized I just was not going to pull off the 20-knot direct crosswind landing after a practice instrument approach. Three of those four landings today were deep into the worst landings of all time category.

I think it's like golf. Pro golfers and beginner golfers can both hit 350-yard drives straight down the fairway and can both slice some shots deep into the rough. The only difference is that the pros are hitting a consistent, long, straight drive around 99% of the time while the beginners are in the rough 99% of the time. You'll never hit 100% perfect landings, but the more landings you do (for now, with an instructor in the plane; later, a mix of solo, dual, and just with a helpful pilot passenger), the closer you'll get.

So the advice above stands: Land 200 more times, and then 200 more after that. Your main goal should always be to have the same number of landings as you have takeoffs. The rest just comes with practice.
 
You just need more practice, it took me 140 ish landings before I could solo at around 25 hours. I don't know what size airport you fly out of, but go to a small, untowered field and knock out 8-10 per lesson for a while and it will come to you in no time.
 
When you think about the phase of landing you are talking about, most of the action happens in the flare which last 10 seconds at most. So you have a couple of minutes practice so far. Good game, eh?

Flying a low approach and seeing how the mechanics work without needing to worry about the touchdown was useful to me in my primary training. As was buying a video on the topic (King, on VHS), and watching it over and over then chair flying.

I suffered the same frustration as you after 19 landings and occasionally still do!


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I was having similar issue early in my PPL training. My CFI noticed I was holding my breath on final. To alleviate the situation, he suggested I continually talk through what I am doing and seeing all the way to touchdown. Any adjustments to pitch, power, bank, rudder, etc. Just verbalize it out loud and that will keep you breathing. Started to make much better landings after that.
 
CMongoose said:
Flying a low approach and seeing how the mechanics work without needing to worry about the touchdown was useful to me in my primary training.
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That's good advice.

There are basically three separate skills involved, with each being pretty simple if you think about it...

1) Level off just inches over the runway. If you're looking in the right place, this is not that hard to do.

2) Keep the nose aligned with the runway centerline using rudder. Again, pretty straightforward.

3) Maintain the runway centerline using aileron to move the plane laterally. Nothing especially hard with that, either.

But the rub, of course, is doing all three at the same time while your speed is constantly changing and the wind is changing and a change in one thing affects the other two. But it's a bit like juggling three balls - once you can do it, it doesn't seem hard at all. But prior to that it can be very frustrating. Just try to separate the three skills in your mind at first, and eventually they'll all click. I promise.
 
citizen5000 said:
Yes. Get 200 more landings.
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I'm at 18.6 hours and 102 landings and agree with what everyone else says. Just practice and it will come. I posted a little while ago with some of the same frustrations and someone said their landings improved drastically at around 20 hours. I am getting to that point now and see the same thing happening. Just stick with it and listen to some advice these CFIs on here are giving.
 
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Ronbonjovi said:
I'm at 18.6 hours and 112 landings and agree with what everyone else says. Just practice and it will come. I posted a little while ago with some of the same frustrations and someone said their landings improved drastically at around 20 hours. I am getting to that point now and see the same thing happening. Just stick with it and listen to some advice these CFIs on here are giving.
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Whoa!

We have close to the same hours (I'm at 17.9) and I only have 47 landings.

I know I need a ton more practice, that's for sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
abqtj said:
Whoa!

We have close to the same hours (I'm at 17.9) and I only have 47 landings.

I know I need a ton more practice, that's for sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Last 10 hours or so have been a lot of pattern work and crosswind landings. Lots of touch n gos and being at a low traffic uncontrolled airport really helps speed up the process. Last session we did 12 before calling it quits. It was definitely a workout but I enjoy days like that (for now...)

Edit: Typo in the last post, its 102 landings not 112. But I definitely feel more confidence then when I was at the <50 mark.
 
Ronbonjovi said:
Last 10 hours or so have been a lot of pattern work and crosswind landings. Lots of touch n gos and being at a low traffic uncontrolled airport really helps speed up the process. Last session we did 12 before calling it quits. It was definitely a workout but I enjoy days like that (for now...)

Edit: Typo in the last post, its 102 landings not 112. But I definitely feel more confidence then when I was at the <50 mark.
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You definitely have an advantage over me, I'm at a Class C airport (KABQ) and can spend 15-20 minutes before departure some days. I'd love to be flying out of a smaller, slower airport.

We've done touch and gos at our airport once or twice, but usually head to a smaller one nearby to do pattern work. Both are about a 10 minute flight each way. Even one of my days at our airport doing patterns was a little weird. With all the traffic, I was extended on downwind a few times, vectored around, etc. Not normal patterns for sure. Good practice for the unusual I guess, but I'd love to get my landings down better first.
 
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