Gear Up Landing ?

lancie00

lancie00

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lancie00
After seeing Brian's post about a gear up landing I got to thinking. Just so everyone knows, this is in NO WAY saying that Brian did anything wrong. It looks to me like he made a wonderful landing in a TOUGH situation. Any landing you can walk away from is a perfect landing!

My question: When I was learning to fly, my instructor told me that if I ever have a gear up landing, land in the grass next to the runway or grass strip, etc. Is this still the accepted practice or is there different thinking on this now? Is it safer to use the known, flat, wide runway?

I know this isn't possible along some runways because of terrain and obstacles but...
 
Not trained in retracts (yet) so apply appropriate quantity of salt grains...

My opinion and choice is the known hard surface. Grass next to the runway can still have too many irregular surface features that will be additional hazards and cause more damage/harm.
 
I'd go with the runway. No telling what's in the grass next to the runway. Could wipe out an ASOS, hit a ditch, wing catch a rut and spin, etc. Then you've got to get the thing out of the grass which will probably be more difficult.

Even with helos. Engine out I'm going to a wide runway. You try and pull off something to the grass and flip the thing, you can bet insurance will be questioning your actions and not want to pay up.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Not trained in retracts (yet) so apply appropriate quantity of salt grains...

My opinion and choice is the known hard surface. Grass next to the runway can still have too many irregular surface features that will be additional hazards and cause more damage/harm.
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Agreed. And a partial gear up situation makes it even worse. A belly landing on a hard surface doesn't cause all that much damage if it's done properly.
 
+1 for runway in gear up as 1st choice but putting it ANYWHERE safely is better than second guessing.
 
lancie00 said:
My question: When I was learning to fly, my instructor told me that if I ever have a gear up landing, land in the grass next to the runway or grass strip, etc. Is this still the accepted practice or is there different thinking on this now? Is it safer to use the known, flat, wide runway?
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Landing in the grass is a terrible idea if there is a runway or empty road available. All you need is one thing on the bottom of the plane to dig into the dirt and all your energy will be used up in a few inches or your plane will flip. If you land on a paved surface the plane will slide for hundreds of feet and your body won't have to absorb all that energy.
 
Also, next to the runway isn't better for anyone. Chances are you'll still be in the safety zone so the airport is closed anyway. Then you have the added challenges of moving the plane from the grass instead of the runway.
 
A grass runway is likely to be in good shape. But at some airports (such as my homedrome) the grass alongside the runway has things like ditches and culverts in it - not something you want to slide into at speed.
 
Your instructor is wrong. Tell him what Capt. Geoffrey said. Take your instructor and walk next to a runway and see how it looks.

Of course a grass runway would be my second choice, if I had choices.
 
For me it was pretty easy: I had already seen the video. Serious! A guy in an early Bo did the same thing a year or so ago and it was captured. (He did WAY better than I did - the prop stopped.)

Personally, here are my thoughts:
Gear known UP (all of them): pavement if possible and wide as suggested. (Turns out long isn't an issue.)
If you can put down BOTH mains. DO IT. The vertical speed is arrested by the struts when you kill the engine.
KILL THE ENGINE and pull the mixture (per the POH). Fire is your biggest enemy - or flipping - not sure.

The only time I might chose grass over pavement is if the airport had two runways - and one was grass. (Or if I had landed in the grass beside the runway before - there are a few places like that and Claremore OK is one.)

Now, whether or not to put the gear down or leave it up if the engine quits first? Guess that one depends. If hard and flat (say Kansas), then I'm likely putting them down. The vertical speed is a bit more without the fan turning.
 
lancie00 said:
My question: When I was learning to fly, my instructor told me that if I ever have a gear up landing, land in the grass next to the runway or grass strip, etc. Is this still the accepted practice or is there different thinking on this now? Is it safer to use the known, flat, wide runway?

I know this isn't possible along some runways because of terrain and obstacles but...
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Heck no! Land on the hard surface if possible in most scenarios if you are bellying a plane in. I've personally seen a hard surface belly that ended up on grass and the results were spectacularly bad and I've also had to land a Cardinal where the gear wouldn't come down and chose to land it on a runway and had minimal damage.

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13599764_10210092877584668_8982764305563952232_n.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210140830703466&set=gm.1218367724848786&type=3&permPage=1

Speed control and good pitch control are important. We killed the mixture but couldn't get the prop to stop and with the winds gusting to 21 KTS chose to keep our approach stabilzed vs trying to stop the prop. We slid about 500'.
 
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Killing the engine probably isn't a good idea. It eliminates a go around possibility, heaven forbid you need it and it just adds unnecessary complications to an already stressful situation.

Besides, at the point the gear didn't extend, the insurance company pretty much owns the airplane anyway.
 
My take is this.....

Take the runway, pop the door and leave the engine running. Insurance will fix the engine and prop, replace all the rashed parts.

In the grass your gonna slide a lot farther and dissipate Ke slower whilst out of control. If you need equipment, in the grass may be more difficult for them to get to you.

But, Brian did it buy the book and now hopefully has been browsing Controller. I'll take that any day.
 
Working the tower one day at an USAF base, a T-37 returned with TWO IPs on board and they couldn't get the gear down. FD sprayed a foam pattern on the runway, they flared, they floated, and floated some more, and touched down just beyond the foam. Laughed my arse off, and I imagine they were buying drinks at the O Club that night. Then again, there were 2-3 staff cars on side of the runway watching, Wing CO, DO, and whoever else, so maybe they weren't in a drinking mood, at least among their peers. Hardly did any damage to the jet either.
 
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Unit74 said:
In the grass your gonna slide a lot farther and dissipate Ke slower whilst out of control. If you need equipment, in the grass may be more difficult for them to get to you.
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That VERY much depends on the condition of the grass, how wet the mud is, what type of dirt, how smooth, etc...
 
Always go for pavement if you can. Grass is uneven, bumpy, hides rocks, potholes,culverts, soft spots and wet spots--these last two will often catch something on the bottom of the plane and add some exciting twists, turns and sometimes sudden stops to your planned long slide, bending and breaking additional parts. Land on the centerline stripe and slide a couple a hundred feet with an awful scraping noise instead. Just make sure you open the door before touchdown so you can get out easily afterwards.
 
RyanShort1 said:
That VERY much depends on the condition of the grass, how wet the mud is, what type of dirt, how smooth, etc...
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The runway is pretty much a known value. Don't know too may pilots that walk the grass before they land on a regular basis. Especially for an emergency landing.
 
Paved

Runway

Period

next question

Edit: as an aside, if executing a forced landing in farm country in a fixed gear aircraft then pick a corn field over soybeans if you have the choice and all other things being equal.
 
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I've seen a few Navions subsequent to gear up landings. You land them nice on a hard surface all you're going to lose is your transponder antenna (and maybe the step). Screw up a little, and you'll lose the flap hinge. Hard to screw up worse than that. Land on the grass and somethings going to dig. All of the off-field wheels up landings I've seen have been significantly worse.
 
flyingron said:
I've seen a few Navions subsequent to gear up landings. You land them nice on a hard surface all you're going to lose is your transponder antenna (and maybe the step). Screw up a little, and you'll lose the flap hinge. Hard to screw up worse than that. Land on the grass and somethings going to dig. All of the off-field wheels up landings I've seen have been significantly worse.
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Prop, step (I think), ADF antenna dome, inboard flap hinges ground up a bit if I recall correctly. Three point attitude on a Navion is on the inboard flap hinges and a bit of the nosewheel that sticks out even when retracted.
 
Paved if given the choice. Yup. Grass around here isn't nearly as suitable.
 
How wide is the parallel taxiway?

I might consider one of those depending on the airport, width, etc...

Grass- not so much.
 
BTW... if something happens to me while flying and my non-pilot wife has to land the plane, even if only to save her own life, she will be landing gear up. She understands that no matter what the guy in the tower says, she will be coming in gear up and right down the center of the longest/widest runway available. The airplane will stop in the shortest distance, without hurting anyone... oh and there aren't any brakes on the right side in a Mooney.
 
lmars said:
Always take the runway if it's an option.
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One exception I'd make (although very uncommon) is that on some airplanes, notably Staggerwings, the low points on the airplane with the gear retracted are the fuel sump valves. More than one Staggerwings has burned to the ground that way.
 
Go for the paved runway,you can see what's in front of you.
 
I had a gear malfunction last summer, there was NO discussion about landing in the grass. We landed safely on the hard surface and walked away unscathed.
Once the gear malfunctioned all I was doing was delivering the plane to the insurance company anyway.
In hindsight it really was a non-event as it should be if you handle it as you've been trained.
 
brian] said:
KILL THE ENGINE and pull the mixture (per the POH). Fire is your biggest enemy - or flipping - not sure.
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Assuming you're talking about trying the stop the prop before landing, this is strongly recommended against in many, many articles, including the Durden book posted previously. The basic idea is that, how much practice have any of us had actually stopping the prop? Do you know what it will take to do it? Most of us have never tried this and have no idea, so we're intentionally adding an additional unknown into an already unusual situation.

For those who have tried stopping the prop in flight for practice (as I have, once), you know that you have to get REALLY slow to do it. In the plane I was in, with a fixed-pitch prop, I had to just about stall the thing to get the prop to stop, otherwise it just kept windmilling. Constant-speed props may not take as much to stop, but I don't know, and most other people don't either. Definitely not something I would want to be trying on final or really anywhere in the pattern. So you would need to do it nice and high. Of course, once you do, you've lost one of your best controls for glidepath, and you certainly can't go around. You also glide much better than you're used to in that airplane, which will throw off your usual aimpoints. So it all goes back to, how many times have you ever practiced shutting down the engine and landing? (Usually, none.) Do you want to be doing it for the first time, in an already stressful situation?

Yes, there are cases where people have shut down the engine, "saved" the engine and prop, and everything has worked out great. But there are also cases where people have died trying to save the engine and prop. Remember, the moment that gear doesn't come down, the insurance company just agreed to buy your airplane from you. Don't risk your life trying to save them some money.

As you're sliding down the runway or before you get out? Absolutely, mixture out, fuel off, all that stuff.
 
Totally agree - Not worth dying....


My POH (and I did review it before the incident), says to pull the mixture, throttle and kill the mags. Also includes turning off the fuel selector and clearing the aircraft after it stops moving. Not sure I would have complied if IMC and broke out near mins. But if the POH has it - I'm inclined to follow unless there is something else (e.g. low IMC) demanding something different.

Let's just say, I waited until the "runway was made". No way was I doing this a few miles out or while circling above. I'm a flying chicken...

(At no time was I concerned about saving the prop - only me - I'm self centered like that. After the "I'm mad" phase, I decided the insurance company would fix it - or get me another one. Looks like I'll be getting another one...)
 
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