Viable airplane options for low time pilots?

Buy according to your mission. A LOT of airplanes that are flying are very old. Cosmetics don't fly aircraft. Mine is the first year the 172 was made, had it for a couple years and I haven't lost my shirt. It's actually been cheaper to maintain and operate than I expected. Someone will find some reason to not buy any aircraft on the market. Although mine is listed here, I'm reasonably certain that I've got mine sold. The jury is still out for me on whether i should have bought bigger the first time or not, but that's a whole different debate.

Have a good hard look at what the mission is, what the budget is, and the mechanical state of whatever you're looking for. Just like buying a car. You're going to get a thousand different opinions and lots of anecdotal evidence.

The only advice I'll give is to make sure whatever decision you make is based on how mechanically sound it is and how well it meets your mission.

What Jose said about discouraging airplane ownership is true
 
The reason we would like to spend 35kish is so that we can get into this, build some time and learn the ropes of aircraft ownership...there is just no way were going to spend 50k+ on a plane right now. I realize many people on here probably have deep pockets, but not everyone operates on a budget like that. Now...we certainly don't mind picking something up and then redoing interior, etc if need be.

My dad would love an RV-9A some day, but we both agree that we want to make sure this is something we will continue to do in the long run before we start spending big money like that.
 
To ask the question, do you have the household budget set up to handle the fixed costs that come with ownership? (hangar, insurance, reserves, inspections, etc)
 
The good thing with an older, well taken care of "depreciated" Cherokee/C172 is that you can probably eventually re-sell it for close/same as what you bought it for.
 
Bookmark this and check it periodically for a month or two, you'll get the lay of the land. Is 180hp a requirement or a nice to have?
 
AggieMike88 said:
To ask the question, do you have the household budget set up to handle the fixed costs that come with ownership? (hangar, insurance, reserves, inspections, etc)
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Yes - absolutely. My dad has all of this taken into account. Like I said...it is not that we can only "afford" a 35k airplane. It just makes the most sense for the time being for various reasons. Anyways...I think this thread opened a can of worms that I didn't mean to open. Was simply asking if there were other aircraft we should be looking at other aircraft other than the Cherokee/Mooney/etc and what was appropriate for low time pilots. My dad has done a hell of a lot more research on all this (aircraft ownership, etc) than I have. He is the one doing the shopping as well (I look around from time to time). I just had a few questions/concerns that I figured I would post on here.
 
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The Cherokee 180 will out perform the 172, for fewer dollars. A decent early 182 is hard to beat though.
You may or may not find ownership to be more expensive than renting. But having your Dad as a partner, and
the ability to just go fly when you want to carries a lot of weight.
My Dad wants to fly in to the UFO meeting near Dallas. But I have the airplane, and am in GA. As soon as I can get time off,
I'll be taking it to him to play with for a while.
 
bluerooster said:
The Cherokee 180 will out perform the 172, for fewer dollars. A decent early 182 is hard to beat though.
You may or may not find ownership to be more expensive than renting. But having your Dad as a partner, and
the ability to just go fly when you want to carries a lot of weight.
My Dad wants to fly in to the UFO meeting near Dallas. But I have the airplane, and am in GA. As soon as I can get time off,
I'll be taking it to him to play with for a while.
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Your right - he has done the math and it isn't far from renting, but your right that the convenience of having your own aircraft is awesome. I would just be paying a monthly fee to him and paying for gas - for me it would be A LOT cheaper than renting...for him not so much
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Broken record here...
Socata Tampico (TB9)
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Beat me to it.

Most, if not all, are IFR birds and why mess with 50 year old technology when you can have a 50" wide cabin.

Mine may be up soon. I've been drinking the Trinidad Kool-aid...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JoseCuervo said:
That is the goal of many of the contributors on POA; to discourage airplane ownership as frequently as possible.

Read thru many of the threads, and, it doesn't matter what planes are being considered, the anti-purchase comments are 10:1 compared to the helpful comments.

It is crazy for someone to say that out of the 40+ 172's in your budget, they are all "beat up" and unworthy of purchase. That is kind of the sweet spot market price for 172's these days. It seems like every airport I fly into has a bulletin board with a $25k-35k 172 for sale, and two more with for sale signs out on the ramp.

If you want to find one, start looking at the close airports. Check out Craigslist, you will find one that meets your needs. Lots of old guys are having to sell their planes, and they aren't the most sophisticated marketers. You sometimes have to seek them out.
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There's also a lot of old trash out there tied down, rarely flown and people buy this junk and get way in over their heads in repairs. One can easily get upside down in an old 172 with lousy instruments, questionable engine. Id rather buy a decent 201 mooney in nice shape and fly it for ten years. Common sense to me .
 
Jimmy cooper said:
There's also a lot of old trash out there tied down, rarely flown and people buy this junk and get way in over their heads in repairs. One can easily get upside down in an old 172 with lousy instruments, questionable engine. Id rather buy a decent 201 mooney in nice shape and fly it for ten years. Common sense to me .
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$35K will not get him a M20J....maybe a M20C.

I'm with you, I decided my first plane would be my last, and got a 201, but I fly 150 hrs per year, which makes the buying vs renting decision an easy one.
 
3 in the green said:
The good thing with an older, well taken care of "depreciated" Cherokee/C172 is that you can probably eventually re-sell it for close/same as what you bought it for.
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This is very true. Mine sold today for very close to what I paid for it. Professional pilot came up. I started showing him the cosmetic flaws and things to note due to age and he said (more or less) "I dont care about that, show me the avionics and engine are good". We took a short trip in it and it sold. Probably the most common sense buyer I've had.
 
gitmo234 said:
This is very true. Mine sold today for very close to what I paid for it. Professional pilot came up. I started showing him the cosmetic flaws and things to note due to age and he said (more or less) "I dont care about that, show me the avionics and engine are good". We took a short trip in it and it sold. Probably the most common sense buyer I've had.
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Congrats on the sale!
 
teejayevans said:
$35K will not get him a M20J....maybe a M20C.

I'm with you, I decided my first plane would be my last, and got a 201, but I fly 150 hrs per year, which makes the buying vs renting decision an easy one.
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I'd advise getting your USPA A and a rig before flying any mooney (aside from a mite) that was bought for 35k.
 
Those Socata Tampicos are nice...very few can be found for sale online...most above budget, but one for 39k that looks decent...we will keep these in mind.
 
James331 said:
I'd advise getting your USPA A and a rig before flying any mooney (aside from a mite) that was bought for 35k.
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Yea I told my dad I was leery of any mooney in that price range...just doesn't seem right.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You should worry! You and dad should wait until you've saved twenty grand more before even looking. You are going to get a dog if you try to cheap it. James 331 is trying to send you a message.
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I can't take this guy seriously...I think James is sending a different message than you lol.
 
Beautiful Grumman AA1 on Barnstormers - its 40K, but man it is BEAUTIFUL!
 
CC268 said:
Beautiful Grumman AA1 on Barnstormers - its 40K, but man it is BEAUTIFUL!
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Lol, don't mean to be too over the top, but have two full engine failures, and flying "budget" airplanes kinda looses its allure.

Getting half the size airplane, but a through and through plane, way better in the end of the day.

I'm the guy that'll jump from a "perfectly good airplane", I often don't buy insurance, I like my fast cars and backcountry planes, but you won't catch me in a budget airplane, it's just risk management.
 
If you're just wanting to build time and not necessarily carry much of a load there are a few options out there, how about a tri-pacer?
http://www.controller.com/listings/...aircraft/manufacturer/piper/model-group/pacer

One question I have is what do you want to build time for? Are you wanting to make a career and get your commercial or do you have a flying goal. If you have a specific goal I would suggest you get the airplane for that purpose and build time in it doing what you want from the start. If you were willing to stretch that budget up to say 50-60k range you can find some pretty great airplanes for that.
 
cowman said:
If you're just wanting to build time and not necessarily carry much of a load there are a few options out there, how about a tri-pacer?
http://www.controller.com/listings/...aircraft/manufacturer/piper/model-group/pacer

One question I have is what do you want to build time for? Are you wanting to make a career and get your commercial or do you have a flying goal. If you have a specific goal I would suggest you get the airplane for that purpose and build time in it doing what you want from the start. If you were willing to stretch that budget up to say 50-60k range you can find some pretty great airplanes for that.
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Ideally we would like something we can fly places with as well...I am not saying cross country...but maybe Arizona to California...also something I can do my IFR rating in. We have a friend who flew to Michigan from AZ in his Cherokee 160...and loved it. I completely understand the notion of not buying a junker. Were not going to buy a piece of junk. It sounds like complete B.S. to me that you can't have a nice airworthy machine for 35k-40k though.
 
gitmo234 said:
Buy according to your mission. A LOT of airplanes that are flying are very old. Cosmetics don't fly aircraft. Mine is the first year the 172 was made, had it for a couple years and I haven't lost my shirt. It's actually been cheaper to maintain and operate than I expected. Someone will find some reason to not buy any aircraft on the market. Although mine is listed here, I'm reasonably certain that I've got mine sold. The jury is still out for me on whether i should have bought bigger the first time or not, but that's a whole different debate.

Have a good hard look at what the mission is, what the budget is, and the mechanical state of whatever you're looking for. Just like buying a car. You're going to get a thousand different opinions and lots of anecdotal evidence.

The only advice I'll give is to make sure whatever decision you make is based on how mechanically sound it is and how well it meets your mission.

What Jose said about discouraging airplane ownership is true
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Boy I haven't learned my lesson with this forum...
 
...why do I need those things to get an instrument rating? Never said I was going to be flying instrument conditions on a regular basis...just would like to get my instrument rating...
 
CC268 said:
Ideally we would like something we can fly places with as well...I am not saying cross country...but maybe Arizona to California...also something I can do my IFR rating in. We have a friend who flew to Michigan from AZ in his Cherokee 160...and loved it. I completely understand the notion of not buying a junker. Were not going to buy a piece of junk. It sounds like complete B.S. to me that you can't have a nice airworthy machine for 35k-40k though.
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Maybe some people who know that part of the country/higher elevations better than me can chime in here but if I was going to fly cross country somewhere like that with higher elevations being common I'd want a turbo. At the very least something with a decent amount of power.

I have an Archer II which is basically a cherokee 180 with a more modern tapered wing and some extra cabin space. I fly cross countries of 150-350nm fairly often and it's why I got my plane in the first place. Last year I went all the way from central IL to FL and it was awesome. Destination flying builds time like crazy and gives lots of little "I want to fly to ____ someday" goals. The $100 hamburger runs will keep you current but have some big trips planned too... and make sure whatever airplane you get is the right one for where you want to take it. Also remember whatever you get, no matter what you spend, at some point you WILL be up in the air with a full bladder flying into a strong headwind with an hour still left on the GPS and wish you had a faster airplane. :)
 
CC268 said:
Hey guys,

I know there are a lot of threads on here about this (most of them I have read)...I have 55 hours...brand new pilot..my dad has over 100 hours (still very new as well). We have been looking at Cherokee 180s as well as several other things (Beech Sundowner, old Mooneys, etc) for quite some time. I don't think he wants to spend much more than 35k - which from what I have seen doesn't get you much (but it is better than nothing).

I think in the end we will end up with a Cherokee 180 (I would love a 172, but they seem to be quite expensive).

However, I am curious - is an older Mooney too much plane for new pilots (of course I would have to get my Complex rating)? I would rather be safe than sorry and stay with something easy to fly for now, but I thought I would ask. I am also wondering if 35k will even get us something worth while? I really want something I can do my IFR rating in...

I kind of worry about putting myself in some of these really old planes that cosmetically look pretty weathered.
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Don't overlook the TriPacer PA-22. Good plane, performs better than the 172, and a 150 or 160 HP is a true 4 seat plane. Lots of them around. I just put a deposit on my second, after 3 years between planes. Looking forward to lots of hours, and remember, they are airworthy or they don't get their annual. My "new" one is 59 years old.
 
CC268 said:
What do you guys think about this? My dad just showed me this...just iffy about a 37k Mooney

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...0F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2190697&s-type=aircraft
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Obviously avionics or lack of is what is driving down the price of this plane. The manual gear makes the this about as simple as a retract you can get, so that's a good thing. For Mooneys and all old planes the priority 1 (and 2 and 3) is corrosion, there can be none, zero. You'll need to get a quality prebuy, which involves removing interior and various inspection plates. The 2nd issue for Mooneys is fuel leaks, a reseal will cost you about $9k. If you are serious I would call and get a electronic copy of the logbooks, also go over to Mooneyspace.com, lots of good info and experience.
Are you close enough to make a trip to look at it? Pictures don't always tell the story.
 
CC268 said:
What do you guys think about this? My dad just showed me this...just iffy about a 37k Mooney

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...0F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2190697&s-type=aircraft
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I flew a 1967 M20F not that long ago that through an independent appraiser came in at the same price as this one. I would have bought into the partnership had it not been for a bad winter storm almost sinking my boat and damaging the roof on my house only days before the deal was to be made. Having said that, if the plane that is linked above does not have corrosion or the engine is not making metal I would say go for it. The one I was looking at did not have the 6 pack instrument set up, it had the same hours on the engine, rougher interior, no IFR GPS, fading paint and I still thought she was a great plane. That makes this one a great plane for the price if she passes inspection.
 
JoseCuervo said:
That is the goal of many of the contributors on POA; to discourage airplane ownership as frequently as possible.

Read thru many of the threads, and, it doesn't matter what planes are being considered, the anti-purchase comments are 10:1 compared to the helpful comments.

It is crazy for someone to say that out of the 40+ 172's in your budget, they are all "beat up" and unworthy of purchase. That is kind of the sweet spot market price for 172's these days. It seems like every airport I fly into has a bulletin board with a $25k-35k 172 for sale, and two more with for sale signs out on the ramp.

If you want to find one, start looking at the close airports. Check out Craigslist, you will find one that meets your needs. Lots of old guys are having to sell their planes, and they aren't the most sophisticated marketers. You sometimes have to seek them out.
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Want to know why so many people on here discourage ownership? It is because no matter how prepared you THINK you are for airplane ownership, you're not as prepared as you should be.

Renting is far more economical for most people than purchasing is, considering the mission of most people is 2 people + baggage to an airport 2 hours away. If you're making that trip every other month, it costs you maybe 480-600 bucks per trip at 120-150/hr, which is roughly 3,000-3,600 bucks a year.

A hangar alone can run anywhere from less than 100 dollars a month to 600. Fuel right now is anywhere from 3.00-5.50+/gal. Insurance can be anywhere from 500-1000. Annual flat rates run in the ballpark of 1200-1800 flat rate if NOTHING needs to be fixed.

So say your mission remains the same. Find a decent hangar for 150 bucks a month. Insurance of 600 bucks a year. Fuel at 4 bucks a gallon. 10 gal/hr *4 hours per round trip. That's 1,800 in hangar cost + 600 insurance + 960 fuel + 1400 annual. $4,760 per year. That doesn't include a plane payment if you have paid cash, but you really should add a theoretical payment into your cost calculations. Obviously the more you fly, the more both of those numbers rented or owned climb, and you will find a point where it is more economical to buy rather than rent.

But the reason so many people try to warn others off purchasing is because even those of us who believe we are most prepared can end up paying $36,000 for a plane and get hit with a $14,862 bill at annual.

All that being said, there is a damned good amount of people here who are absolutely providing sage advice when it comes to planes that might suit the bill, just as there are people cautioning you on what to buy. It is like advice from a parent when you're a kid. You roll your eyes at the time, then you come back later with scars and gray hair and realize they were right, even if you didn't like hearing it at the time.
 
Nothing wrong with a Cherokee or 172.. Or an old mooney with manual gear... I'd like to toss in there the Grumman airframes.. fairly slick, and you can get that 180 hp fixed gear/prop to give an older model (D/E/F) mooney a run for its money. The mooney will pull away slowly but I consider the Cheetah/Tiger to be excellent entry level airframes.

Insurance might be cheaper.
The usual caveats apply - buying on the cheap can sometimes be a pig in a poke. You might put more into a $30k airframe than you would just buying a slightly better $50k airframe. If all you want to do is build time and fly local with one passenger then get something small and slow, but if you want to go places or sometimes fill four seats, consider the mooney or grumman. Both the Mooney and Grumman will make a better pilot out of you. You HAVE to learn speed control if you plan on landing.. both float if you are fast.

Owning a plane isn't necessarily about saving money. Its about having YOUR plane being maintained to YOUR standards and available whenever YOU want it. If you fly less than 150-200 hrs a year you wont save much money operationally.
 
The only problem, Phoenix, is that not everyone approaches the Rent vs. Buy decision the same way. Some like having the plane ready to go at any time. Some like knowing that the plane is just like they left it when they show up for their next flight. Some just want to know that the plane is in good mechanical shape, because they've been involved in the maintenance.

Many owners find themselves flying much more often that they did as renters. The plane is available, it's not out with someone else, and it's not down often for unscheduled maintenance. An owner can upgrade the plane at any time, in most any way. Rather like buying a car or leasing one, lots of people go both ways.

But we do a disservice every time we try to force our own individual evaluation of the costs and benefits on someone else, even greater when we only disclose the results and not the analysis.
 
Hank S said:
The only problem, Phoenix, is that not everyone approaches the Rent vs. Buy decision the same way. Some like having the plane ready to go at any time. Some like knowing that the plane is just like they left it when they show up for their next flight. Some just want to know that the plane is in good mechanical shape, because they've been involved in the maintenance.

Many owners find themselves flying much more often that they did as renters. The plane is available, it's not out with someone else, and it's not down often for unscheduled maintenance. An owner can upgrade the plane at any time, in most any way. Rather like buying a car or leasing one, lots of people go both ways.

But we do a disservice every time we try to force our own individual evaluation of the costs and benefits on someone else, even greater when we only disclose the results and not the analysis.
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And truthfully some people just discourage to discourage. Whether it's a brand new airplane or a 1956 model, there are some people here who will find any reason they can to say it shouldn't be bought and discourage others. When I was buying my airplane I posted very generic about it but gave up the year/make/model of it, and there were people even actively discouraging me from purchase and punching holes in everything and later admitted that they actually had figure out which one I was looking at and put in offers on it.
 
I would have to agree with JoseCuervo about the majority of the advice you get when asking about buying a plane is to not buy one.

Following the advice I have seen on this forum in just about every single buying advice thread... unless you are independently wealthy, are paying cash, have your A&P and PPL with IFR, and the plane you are looking at was just painted with interior redone with a fully glass updated panel then just rent. If you are going to buy then buy a two seater for yourself and forget ever taking your family along.
 
CC268 said:
...why do I need those things to get an instrument rating? Never said I was going to be flying instrument conditions on a regular basis...just would like to get my instrument rating...
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Ahh, well in that case that makes things a ton easier, most every plane linked here is good enough to get your instrument ticket, actually the plane doesn't even have to be legal for IMC to just get your instrument rating in it. I thought you wanted to do some real IMC flying with it.
 
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